Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
barron
Yes I have read the thread in it's entirety, which is why i said my mentioning of tolarian winds would be brushed aside. I saw the earlier discussion on it. The brainfreeze is mostly in the SB because of extirpate. It's something I know I will be facing. I know snap isn't that great, which is why it's not MD. But against the gro type players I have played it has shown to be superior to E truth. It buys a turn and still alots mana for necessary draw spells. The other bounce don't do that and turnabout buys a turn, but is more of a gamble since it comes down to the one card draw.
I don't even begin to understand why you have a Brain Freeze in the board for Extirpate. You know that Extirpates remove things from the game, which, conveniently, is EXACTLY where Cunning Wish goes to look for cards. Unless you're planning on boarding it in, which would make less sense if you were afraid of Extirpate, I don't see the application.
The cool thing about the Red version, is the ability to kill the Mage. Thus, inferior bounce spells are unnecessary. Also, Sudden Shock/Urza's Rage are cheap enough to not really interfere with any draw spells you're going to play.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
yeah i blanked there.
I can understand why you would run red for the damage against mage, but right now my meta consists of 0 threshold, though i think one or two people are now making them, but plenty of goblins. So I think ducking wastelands is the optimal position to take.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
barron
yeah i blanked there.
I can understand why you would run red for the damage against mage, but right now my meta consists of 0 threshold, though i think one or two people are now making them, but plenty of goblins. So I think ducking wastelands is the optimal position to take.
That's fine. In that case, you might want to consider leaving Think Twice out as well. I did in fact slow the deck down a bit with the addition of Think Twice and if you're metagame is ultra goblin heavy, then leave out the Twincasts as well. Just a little note here, I figured out a nifty way for those of you who wish to stay monocolor to deal with Chalice. Look into a card called Karn's Touch. It's pretty nifty because of a couple of applications. Make equipment fall off. Kill Chalice. Kill Mox. Just a consideration. I only did light testing with Karn's Touch. Anyway, look into it.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Hey,
I'm totally new to Legacy and I've chose to make a Solidarity deck and also a Red Death deck. I know how to play Red Death as it is mostly beats+some disruption, but I'm having difficulty going off with solidarity.
Could one of you take me step by step with your plays in an example. Also what turn do u usually win and how?
Thx in advance. And nice to meet you all!
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
k u j a
Hey,
I'm totally new to Legacy and I've chose to make a Solidarity deck and also a Red Death deck. I know how to play Red Death as it is mostly beats+some disruption, but I'm having difficulty going off with solidarity.
Could one of you take me step by step with your plays in an example. Also what turn do u usually win and how?
Thx in advance. And nice to meet you all!
You should probably start off with the Primer
It is abit old but still useful
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deep6er
Just a little note here, I figured out a nifty way for those of you who wish to stay monocolor to deal with Chalice. Look into a card called Karn's Touch. It's pretty nifty because of a couple of applications. Make equipment fall off. Kill Chalice. Kill Mox. Just a consideration. I only did light testing with Karn's Touch. Anyway, look into it.
I have never seen this card in my life and I've surveyed every blue instant on gatherer at least five times. It's completely bizarre, awesome against Chalice, and probably far far far too narrow to ever be used. Maybe if any other 0-Cost artifacts in existence hurt us.
Out of curiosity, Is there any reason we (we meaning the ones still in monocolor) don't use a Psionic Blast to pick off Mage/Confidant/Glowrider/Etc?
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
@Jamest: REB isn't Mage removal because it's counterable.
Hmm, by that logic, Reset isn't an untap spell... Besides, REB is cheap enough to play around Daze or be easily Twincast-able if countered. Plus, you can side in multiple REB's (since it's versatile) unlike Sudden Shock, which risks being a dead card.
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I play the uncounterable removal in order to return the gamestate to something that I can take advantage of.
Keep in mind that if aggro-control can't counter your removal, they will simply aim it at something else. This is a general concept that all combo decks should be mindful of when considering Split Second stuff. For example, I think Wipe Away in Iggy Pop is a poor card.
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Also, Twincast is better than REB.
I should emphasize that I use BOTH Twincast and REB. Whether Twincast is better is a moot point.
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Force is also free.
Mana-wise, it's free. But card disadvantage is a cost too. Remember, one of your motivations for running Think Twice was to help recover from FOW.
Compare these two hands after countering something:
{FOW, X, TT ...} becomes {X, X ...}
{REB, X, X ...} becomes {X, X ...}
In order to reach the same game state, Force of Will plus flashback Think Twice (or Flash of Insight) requires 4 more mana. The fact that you don't have to pitch a card to REB is indirectly a draw spell.
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Also, what does your sideboard look like? Sounds to me it might be too geared toward the Threshold matchup.
SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 High Tide
MD
3 High Tide (personal preference, I like 7 Tides)
4 Cunning Wish
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
4 Meditate
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
1 Brain Freeze (I often swap this with Twincast)
18 Island/Fetch/Dual
Currently, my sideboard plan versus Threshold is:
+4 Twincast +2 Red Elemental Blast +2 Pyroblast
-4 Force of Will -3 Remand -1 Brain Freeze
I encourage you to test this and let me know what you think. On the flipside, I should test your Thresh plan. What do you board in and out? Is your strategy to cast multiple smaller Freezes or normal comboing or ... ?
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jamest
Hmm, by that logic, Reset isn't an untap spell... Besides, REB is cheap enough to play around Daze or be easily Twincast-able if countered. Plus, you can side in multiple REB's (since it's versatile) unlike Sudden Shock, which risks being a dead card.
Keep in mind that if aggro-control can't counter your removal, they will simply aim it at something else. This is a general concept that all combo decks should be mindful of when considering Split Second stuff. For example, I think Wipe Away in Iggy Pop is a poor card.
I should emphasize that I use BOTH Twincast and REB. Whether Twincast is better is a moot point.
Mana-wise, it's free. But card disadvantage is a cost too. Remember, one of your motivations for running Think Twice was to help recover from FOW.
Compare these two hands after countering something:
{FOW, X, TT ...} becomes {X, X ...}
{REB, X, X ...} becomes {X, X ...}
In order to reach the same game state, Force of Will plus flashback Think Twice (or Flash of Insight) requires 4 more mana. The fact that you don't have to pitch a card to REB is indirectly a draw spell.
SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 High Tide
MD
3 High Tide (personal preference, I like 7 Tides)
4 Cunning Wish
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
4 Meditate
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
1 Brain Freeze (I often swap this with Twincast)
18 Island/Fetch/Dual
Currently, my sideboard plan versus Threshold is:
+4 Twincast +2 Red Elemental Blast +2 Pyroblast
-4 Force of Will -3 Remand -1 Brain Freeze
I encourage you to test this and let me know what you think. On the flipside, I should test your Thresh plan. What do you board in and out? Is your strategy to cast multiple smaller Freezes or normal comboing or ... ?
What I meant about counterable Mage removal is the fact that if they counter what goes at the Mage, they still have the advantage. With a dead Mage, you have the ability to regain control of the stack with High Tide. Must counters aren't what the deck needs. What the deck needs are ways to kill Mage, because countermagic WHILE GOING OFF isn't what should be worrying. What SHOULD be worrying is the ability to kill High Tide and thus a great deal of our ability to control the stack. What you're also missing is the fact that I don't side in Sudden Shock. I board in Urza's Rage and Echoing Truth in addition to the Twincasts. Urza's Rage has come in handy in a couple of situations, and it's alternate win is amazing against multiple Mages/Stifles/Blessing. You don't think you'll have 7 cards in hand when you combo off without Think Twice do you? Before, it was unlikely because you probably forced a Mage. Think Twice puts you ahead of them on Card Advantage (mostly the Bardo versions) and means that you DO in fact have extra cards to pitch to Force. It's rarely 7 vs 7 even against Hatfield Threshold.
I think it's kind of funny how your list completely disregards quite a few of the things that I've been adamant about. 4 Wishes is entirely too many which is compunded by the fact that you have Stroke as the ONLY 'draw' spell in your board. At this point, I don't even know if we can continue with the discussion. Your list seems to indicate a refusal to believe any of the points that I thought were established as fundamental. 4 Meditates in the main? Why? Did you just not believe me whenever I was talking? I've been against the 4th maindeck Meditate for quite some time and everybody I've talked to has come around and agreed with me. Also, 4 Wishes? Wish is slow against Goblins and doesn't actually count as Tides 4-7. Just so I can begin to understand this, why did you make these changes? I've addressed and refuted these changes before with logical arguments and specific examples from my own play. You asked me to test this. I've already done this. The deck HAD 4 Wishes and 4 Meditates at one point in time (in addition to a Tide in the board). I was extremely unhappy with it. Wish was too often a dead card and I would be sitting on TOO many dead cards because of Force/Land. If you could give me some points as to why you think your list is better than mine, I would appreciate it. I'll discuss the various pros and cons with you, but truly, your list boggles my mind.
Anyway, I suppose I'll keep going. Uh, in your sideboard plan, you lose if they counter your Wishes. Also, what have your testing results been with this list/boarding strategy? I'm not sure it could be that good. Post board they're likely to counter Wish or Mage it (probably with the second one). Anyway, my new board plan against Threshold is -4 Remands, -1 Meditate, +1 Urza's Rage, +1 Echoing Truth, +3 Twincast.
Hope you get back to me soon, as it seems like we have a fair bit to discuss.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Clearly, maindeck Twincast and Peek are both insane in the mirror. So my question is, how do you think this new list with the red splash runs in the mirror in comparison to the mono version? I can see how Think Twice can be a set-up card that the mono-colored player doesn't have access to, but do you think that Peek or the random Twincast can hurt you? I'm unsure of the actual numbers. I was just wondering how the mirror match is affected by the red splash, if affected at all.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NANTUKO_SHADY
Clearly, maindeck Twincast and Peek are both insane in the mirror. So my question is, how do you think this new list with the red splash runs in the mirror in comparison to the mono version? I can see how Think Twice can be a set-up card that the mono-colored player doesn't have access to, but do you think that Peek or the random Twincast can hurt you? I'm unsure of the actual numbers. I was just wondering how the mirror match is affected by the red splash, if affected at all.
It really shouldn't affect the mirror that much.
Peek is only marginal in the mirror to begin with. You do give up the ability to see their hand but you gain card advantage and a marginal response to brain Freeze (obviously, Flash of Insight is better.)
The one random Twincast in the main is obviously a bit of a loss but as a one of it generally won't come up that often. Post board you still have 3 twincasts that you can access.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Do you feel at a loss not having access to the 2x Brainfreeze in the sideboard after game 1? Often times, it seems in the mirror, that the game comes down to who plays more Brainfreezes. A single Brainfreeze for leathal or close to lethal can really break open the stack war. It forces your opponent to kill you as Brainfreeze pressures them back against the wall. If you can fight a decent fight in the stack war, and cast multiple Brainfreezes in response to your opponent's untap/draw spells, it seems like you would have the advantage. I'm not trying to fight the cause of this deck, I think red definetly has potential and Urza's Rage is sexy, but I was just trying to figure out if the mirror match should be of any more concern with this new build.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
I don't usually board in additional Brainfreezes in the mirror.
They tend to seem win more and can turn on your opponent's deck via Flash and now to a marginal extent Think Twice (though that is fairly desperate)
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
I am reading up on this deck and want to learn how to play it. I have a pretty good understanding of the idea and legacy as a whole but I was wondering if someone could post both a Mono U version and Ur version of the deck that are mostly agreed upon.
I have looked for a little but cannot find an updated list anywhere.
Thanks
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
z38gm
I am reading up on this deck and want to learn how to play it. I have a pretty good understanding of the idea and legacy as a whole but I was wondering if someone could post both a Mono U version and Ur version of the deck that are mostly agreed upon.
I have looked for a little but cannot find an updated list anywhere.
Thanks
Well, here's the Mono U version that I run, and I'm pretty sure it is an "accepted" build. To find out the red version, go back a few pages and you can see Deep6er's post on the changes he made FROM the Mono U version.
Solidarity
12x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Peek
4x High Tide
2x Opt
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
4x Reset
2x Brainfreeze
1x Twincast
4x Remand
2x Flash of Insight
3x Cunning Wish
3x Meditate
3x Turnabout
4x Force of Will
The Sideboard:
1x Stroke of Genius
4x Hydroblast <---- I cut a Hydroblast for a Wipe Away, but it's your call.
2x Brainfreeze
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
3x Twincast
If you're too lazy to look back, the red version is:
-2 Peek
-1 Twincast
+3 Think Twice
-2 Island
+2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 RACK AND RUIN
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 URZA'S RAGE
1 SUDDEN SHOCK
1 STARSTORM
3 Hydroblast
3 Twincast
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
Out of curiosity, Is there any reason we (we meaning the ones still in monocolor) don't use a Psionic Blast to pick off Mage/Confidant/Glowrider/Etc?
From what David has been saying repeatedly, the reason the red splash was chosen is that your removal for Meddling Mage is now uncounterable. High Tide is one of the most important cards in the Thresh matchup, because it provides you the mana you need to control the stack. Meddling Mage takes away that ability, so uncounterable removal allows you to return the game to a state where you can properly control the stack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deep6er
Anyway, my new board plan against Threshold is -4 Remands, -1 Meditate, +1 Urza's Rage, +1 Echoing Truth, +3 Twincast.
I've only played the matchup versus Thresh a couple of times, but I was under the impression that it was all about card advantage. Why would take out Meditate? Is skipping a turn that big?
Also, does Think Twice open you up to any more graveyard hate? Admittedly, graveyard disruption is sub-optimal versus Solidarity, but often board control decks and the like will have dead cards main, and not enough to board in from the side, so they might as well bring in Tormod's Crypt. I assume this comes up so rarely that it won't matter, but have you experienced this at all? Does Crypt become at all useful in these situations?
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lego_Army_Man
From what David has been saying repeatedly, the reason the red splash was chosen is that your removal for Meddling Mage is now uncounterable. High Tide is one of the most important cards in the Thresh matchup, because it provides you the mana you need to control the stack. Meddling Mage takes away that ability, so uncounterable removal allows you to return the game to a state where you can properly control the stack.
I've only played the matchup versus Thresh a couple of times, but I was under the impression that it was all about card advantage. Why would take out Meditate? Is skipping a turn that big?
Also, does Think Twice open you up to any more graveyard hate? Admittedly, graveyard disruption is sub-optimal versus Solidarity, but often board control decks and the like will have dead cards main, and not enough to board in from the side, so they might as well bring in Tormod's Crypt. I assume this comes up so rarely that it won't matter, but have you experienced this at all? Does Crypt become at all useful in these situations?
Actually, skipping a turn IS big against Threshold. Unfortunately, that's one of the few decks that can actually take advantage of a skipped turn. However, since you have a bunch of Twincasts in the deck post board, your combo isn't terribly affected.
Also, graveyard disruption doesn't do anything. Understand that wasting a card on Crypt still counts as Card Advantage for me. It's also unlikely I'm sitting on double Think Twice or something like that as I usually, y'know, USE them.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deep6er
Also, graveyard disruption doesn't do anything. Understand that wasting a card on Crypt still counts as Card Advantage for me. It's also unlikely I'm sitting on double Think Twice or something like that as I usually, y'know, USE them.
Fair enough, that's what I had assumed.
With the new Red splash, what is your actual game plan against Thresh? I know for a while it was to possibly hijack their draw engine, and then go for multiple small freezes. Is this still the plan, or does the ability to remove Meddling Mage mean you can simply "combo big"?
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lego_Army_Man
From what David has been saying repeatedly, the reason the red splash was chosen is that your removal for Meddling Mage is now uncounterable. High Tide is one of the most important cards in the Thresh matchup, because it provides you the mana you need to control the stack. Meddling Mage takes away that ability, so uncounterable removal allows you to return the game to a state where you can properly control the stack.
While all that is fascinating, it's also completely not the question I asked.
My question had nothing to do with whether or not Psionic Blast was on par with Urza's Rage and Sudden Shock for removing Mage and didn't really have anything to do with the red splash in the slightest.
My question was, is there a reason we don't run a Psionic Blast in board in the non-red builds?
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
While all that is fascinating, it's also completely not the question I asked.
My question had nothing to do with whether or not Psionic Blast was on par with Urza's Rage and Sudden Shock for removing Mage and didn't really have anything to do with the red splash in the slightest.
My question was, is there a reason we don't run a Psionic Blast in board in the non-red builds?
I don't see the point in Psionic Blast in the board. Really, we already have at LEAST two ways to bounce it (Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapoer.) Not to mention, some people board Wipe Away as well, which is a guranteed way to bounce Meddling Mage. Psionic Blast does deal with Meddling Mage for good, but it can be countered. Bouncing Mage is close to the same thing as killing it, seeming as how you usually bounce it the turn before you are going to combo off. Then you combo off in response to him recasting Meddling Mage. All in all, I don't see the purpose, or the space for a Psionic Blast in the board.
Re: [DTB] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
So this is the big solution for thresh? Losing points to gobs... Splashing red for janky cards?? It's for the birds! Here's my list I used to top 8 at a local tourney. I played thresh 3 times and lost once. My draws were bad of course :wink: :
4 High Tide
3 Cunning Wish
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
2 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast
11 Island
1 Volcanic
3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Pyroblast
4 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away
1 Brain Freeze
Board plan for thresh... -4 Remand -1 Cunning Wish, +4 Pyroblast, +1 Wipe Away. The one mana less cost of pyroblast makes a huge difference over twincast plus it can kill a mage.
I really don't see the point of starstorm. Can someone enlighten me?
Think Twice is interesting… It seems slow almost too slow and messes up the curve. I may have to test 2 think twice for 2 peeks or go back to the 4 opts. Peek is pretty weak. Who wants to see how many counterspells their opponent has? You already know their hand is full of them.
