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The thing is, the only relevant played artifacts are Cursed Scroll, equipment, Vial and maybe Scepter. Bridge isn't played (although if you do face it, it's a simple matter to Incinerator your Warchief before casting Tin Street), so it's not much of an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrely
True, and I know Bridge isn't widely played. It was just an example. In fact it was about the only thing I could think of that was bad enough to matter. So that alone should have answered my question maybe. Thanks anyway.
I'll try it out with the Hooligan.
yea, now thinking about it green is starting to intrigue me. If so many people are playing with jits., scrolls, needle, ect... now i shouldn't be too worried about stp or armageddon as much since grip, tin street, and naturalize take care of the bigger threats. I however think tinkerer would be overall better than tin street due to needing green to use so if warchief is out you couldn't destroy an artifact, anyways guys thanks for helping me out and i'll fix the deck up some soon :)
The issue with Tinkerer is, you need either a Warchief in play or an untap-step to use it and basically all of those artifacts are going to kill Warchief anyways, and in the same way, Tinkerer before you get your untap.Quote:
Originally Posted by rmd83
Tinkerer is a garbage card and shouldn't be run in any Vial Goblins build ever. It doesn't help you against Combo, because it's slow and overcosted. It doesn't help you against aggro with or without Jitte because you can't kill the Jitte with it and 1/2's for 1R don't help stave off an onslaught of enemy creatures. And it doesn't help you against most control decks. Maybe the rogue deck running Ensnaring Bridge will pop up now and again, but you're better off just running another Siege-Gang Commander and finishing your opponent off by throwing Goblins at him. If you're worried about artifacts in a non-green goblin build, sideboard Disenchant or Shattering Spree.
Jak, your maindeck list is identical to mine except I have the 4th Fanatic in for the Rancor. Let me know after some testing how that single Rancor treats you. I might consider cutting a Fanatic, hard as it would be to justify to myself.
Eldariel, I strongly disagree with cutting the Warchief. Your points for doing so are obviously valid, but I don't think they cover a broad enough matchup spectrum, as <4 Warchief significantly drops your chances against High Tide or other combo decks, as well as some control decks. Lackey into Warchief is your best bet for producing turn three kills outside of Lackey into Siege-Gang followed by Piledriver. Lackey into Warchief allows turn 2 Matron into a Piledriver, or turn 2 Piledriver/Tin-Street, or turn two Warchief -again-, or what have you. It's not hard to stockpile up the damage. Because Combo is one of Goblins' more difficult matchups, I'd be afraid to ever cut that fourth Warchief.
Secondly, Warchief is a godsend against control decks, especially ones that rely on a lot of sorcery-speed explosions like MBC or Train Wreck. After refilling with Ringleader, Warchief allows you to go from having no goblins on the board to a full-out assault for close to the opponent's remaining life total.
My last point is that Pyroblast hasn't seemed to ever do that much for me. My sideboard has been 4 Chalice, 4 Crypt, 4 Pyrokinesis, 3 Krosan Grip for awhile now, and I love it as such. Crypt has been awesome against Threshold, especially with Tin-Street taking out any stray Pithing Needles. Crypt has also helped me against Reanimator, as R/G Goblins has no other way to deal with Akroma, as well as GK Salvagers and more importantly, Iggy Pop. More importantly, Tormod's Crypt takes nothing away from the deck's tempo, allowing you to drop it out while simultaneously launching your Goblins.
With three Siege-Gangs and the full compliment of ports, and the fact that most Solidarity nowadays isn't running Hydroblast, I haven't found it absolutely necessary to beat Solidarity. I do very well game 1 from speed alone, and Chalice nudges things along and at least makes them spend a Force or find time to Cunning Wish/Bounce it. Outside of Solidarity, I haven't had much use for it. It's nice to pick off Threshold's Brainstorms and Hydroblasts, but no more nice than Tormod's Crypt. Krosan Grip and Tin-Street takes care of most answers a Blue-based control deck can throw at Goblins (Grip is great against Landstill and Hannifish's Plagues, as most decks facing Goblins won't keep Duress in). Vial singlehandedly gives blue nightmares anyway, as the ability to churn out uncounterable goblins is nice.
Therefore, as Black/White/Red all seem more suited to providing hate for Goblins over Blue, I don't see the need to run a card to take shots at a mostly favorable color.
Rancor was okay, but didn't really help me win anything. So I just cut it and stuck in my 3rd Tin Street Hooligan. I really like how it is doing now. Here is my most updated list.
Lands
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire
4 taiga
5 mountain
Non-Creatures
4 aether vial
Creatures
4 goblin lackey
3 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
3 tin-street hooligan
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin ringleader
3 siege-gang commander
SB
4 chalice of the void
4 pyrostatic pillar
3 krosan grip
4 pyrokinesis
I've run exactly the same build, but with 4 Fanatics and 2 Siege-Gang Commanders and I'm not going to cut any Fanatics off.
I think 2 Commanders are enough and when running 3 there is always a danger that you draw two into your opening hand, or one Commander with two Ringleaders.
I'm actually coming around to the fact 3 Siege are needed to beat Solidarity game one. That matchup is extremely dependant on what lackey brings out and not much else. Ill take the chance of drawing Siege 'too much' because too much is never enough for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by raudo
Jak you build is exactly mine now. I dropped Rancor, altho I like it alot the tin streets demand the room. If Fanatic is weak in your meta I suggest the change however.
Well fanatics are not really weak in my meta. It is just that I hate drawing them late game or something. But I don't think I want to go below 3 again, just because of there ability to pick off random stuff like confidants, birds and even 2 powered dudes. So what do peoples SBs look like for the mirror hate and combo? I am seeing the mirror a lot more, so I was wondering if people are using more or different stuff other than pyrokinesis for creature removal for the RG version.
It's bizarre how close we're all coming to builds on R/G Goblins. Jak's build is one card off from me, as I'm running 4 Fanatics and 2 Tin-Streets. (Not counting sideboard, as I don't run Pyrostatic Pillar)
As said above, the more Siege-Gang Commanders you have, the better your chance of beating Solidarity or any combo deck game one. Remember that most combo decks have very little defense against Lackey into SGC swings. Solidarity game one has only Force of Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by raudo
It seems the debate for non-Rancor builds has become about 61 cards, and which to cut from the list of:
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Siege-Gang Commander
(Or if you're as ballsy as Eldariel, a Goblin Warchief)
If you expect more combo/control than aggro/mirror, a case could be made for cutting the fourth Incinerator as well, but it's just so good in the mirror and for getting Lackey through random small crap that it's hard to justify.
Cutting the Mogg Fanatic slows your deck down and lowers your ability to deal with quick problems, like Birds of Paradise, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant, or what have you. It also drops your chances of a Lackey connecting through things like Basking Rootwalla, Llanowar Elves, or whatever other random 1/1 or 2/1 hits the board. Fanatic also has reach, which can be important as a lot of decks manage to stabilize the board situation only when their life total is very low.
Cutting the Siege-Gang Commander results in less explosiveness off your Lackey if you connect. Cutting the SGC assumes your Lackey will rarely hit in favor of a more accelerated midgame (No more double SGC clogging your hand), but with less reach in the end against random things like Moat or a wall of large creatures. SGC also allows you to Machine Gun your way through smaller creatures, or puts them at a huge liability when their life total drops into single digits. It's important to note that extra Siege-Gang Commanders have lowered the need for cards like Goblin Sharpshooter.
Cutting the Tin-Street Hooligan results in less resilience against potentially problematic cards like Umezawa's Jitte, Aether Vial, Sword of Fire and Ice, Chalice of the Void, and Pithing Needle. It's less versatile than Fanatic and less of a wrecking ball than SGC, as against some decks its ability is dead and it's simply a 2/1 beater (Albeit sometimes a 2/1 hasted beater for R.) More Tin-Street Hooligans makes Angel Stompy and White Weenie decks far more winnable, as Silver Knight can be overwhelmed if he's unequipped, and it makes rogue aggro decks like Faerie Stompy somewhat manageable. (Note, Eldariel, I said somewhat.:cool:)
I chose to cut the Tin-Street because I liked it just a little less than the other two. Also, Tin-Street's the only one of the group that requires I have green on the board to use to its full capacity (I often don't want nonbasics in the mirror if I'm short on land), and I can Matron-Tutor for it if I need to pick off an artifact badly enough.
Thoughts?
For me, it's real simple:
I don't think Mogg Fanatic can be cut. Why? Because you only run 4 MD answers to a Lackey in the mirror on the draw. There's no reason to lose mirrors to opponent just having the Lackey, so at the very least, I want 4 Fanatics to deal with it. Also, the additional reach I find really important. Manacurve reasons weight in a lot too. Basically, I think the deck just hums much better at 4 Fanatics than at 3 or 2 or 1.
Tin Street Hooligan can't be cut. Or at least I wouldn't. Once the Lackey doesn't connect, the mirror comes down to mana superiority, and with both decks packing 8 mana disruption lands to slow down the pace of the game, Vial is the defining factor. Also, WW-like decks are easy to beat once the equipment is dealt with. I've won through double Silver Knight, double Soltari Priest rather easily (Vial) just because I was able to destroy his two Jittes. Also, Faerie Stompy, while more adept at racing (due to the bigger creatures) will still have issues keeping up with you if you can take out the Chalice protecting him from REBs, and of course, Tin Street can dig you out from the hole that is Sword of Fire and Ice. But most important I find the mirrorbreaking power this guy possesses. That, and the fact that he gives an answer to just about every MD card that might lock us out of the game (with the sole exception of Solitary Confinement). He also compliments our mana denial plan against decks using Moxes, a big gap in the deck's armor presently. We can hit opponent's manabase hard, but not the Moxes. I think it's important to deal with that.
I don't want to cut Siege-Gang Commander. You already made lots of good cases. I'll add to that, SGC is the single card we have to recover from Wrath and it's incredible in the mirror, and provides us with means to deal direct damage, something we're lacking in otherwise. Basically, he finishes the games so I really want to have him available when the time comes.
In addition to my choice of the Warchief, there're two other alternatives, I'd consider:
Gempalm Incinerator: Worse curvedrop than Mogg Fanatic and less useful against non-aggro deck, but our only means of taking out big creatures (save Commander). Also inherent card advantage if it ever kills anything and a beater. I'd still prefer Fanatic over him.
Goblin Piledriver: Yea, he's awesome and wins games and all that, but he's kinda poor play on turn 2 and he gets blocked always. Good for those wins out of the blue (Warchief-Piledriver-Piledriver) and kills against combo, but otherwise kinda meh.
The rest:
Goblin Lackey: The single reason we can win against combo, and a huge threat to every deck in the format, can make opponent do horrible blocks, allows forcing damage through and when unchecked, the best Lotus ever.
Goblin Matron: What can I say, pure card advantage, does anything your deck has the potency to. Also chains into...
Goblin Ringleader: The reason the deck is so strong, it just draws you a fistful of new Goblins while beating some ass. The reason we win aggro- and control-MUs.
I actually think cutting a single Ringleader would make for an interesting experiment as you still have Matrons to chain into Ringleaders, and Siege-Gangs for the superior midgame. Cutting a Lackey is an interesting prospect, but not worth it really (there's always a better alternative) and Matrons are really the basic engine of the deck.
I could consider dropping some of those cards if we had access to singletons, but the issue is, this list is so crammed that we don't. A singleton Pyromancer would make the loss of a Piledriver far less relevant, a singleton Goblin Sharpshooter would make Gempalm much more manageable and a singleton Goblin Tinkerer would make dropping a Tin Street easy, but we don't have room for any of those (and yes, I'm considering running Tinkerer/2 Tin Street-set up, it has some advantages, mostly the Vial-chainability and repeatable usability).
I also decided to cut a Tin-Street, I figure that no artifact is going to instantly make me lose so I can at least Matron for it if needed, and also the thing about needing a green mana. It was mostly just not being able to bring myself to cut a Fanatic or SGC i guess.
Well I think we also need to look at what tin street does. What weak MUs it helps out against and do the same for mogg.
Tin Street
faerie stompy (equipment)
affinity (anything)
AS (equipment)
Mogg
AS (MoM)
Now I may of missed a few, but Tin Street as a 3 of just seems better and helps in MUs that are 50-50 or worse. Mogg can pick off Dark Confidant, but do decks where he is in bother us. I know mogg is good for additional removal, but there are so many artifacts that hurt gobs. As for creatures, not so many that are x/1. If I missed any let me know because I am not thinking real well today.
You forgot that Fanatic kills Lackey. And if you don't kill a Confidant, he might just draw the opponent into a Plague/answers for you.
Again, I think it's all what matchups you want to make slightly worse and what you want to lean towards tutoring for with Matron. I'd be scared to go in to a heavy control match without four Ringleaders, as chaining Ringleader into Ringleader and refilling your hand more times than they can handle is solid. (I've been known to go Lackey into Ringleader over SGC or Warchief against control decks I knew would sweep the board before I got them near death. No idea if anyone else does this.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Cutting a Warchief is also scary against a lot of control, as haste lets you steal a lot of quick damage before things like Pyroclasm/Infest/Whatever can sweep your board.
Another strike against Tin Street (Why do we keep wanting to hyphenate Tin-Street? I just realized it's Tin Street. Sheesh.) is that, like Warchief and SGC, you need two Non-Waste/Port lands to get the maximum effect out of him, and you can't vial him out and reap the benefits of his CIP effect.
I do agree that cutting a Ringleader might be worth an unbiased experiment. It would lower the mana curve, but dull the deck's card advantage a bit (Which definitely fits the thread's title, Is card advantage better than speed?)
I just can't cut a Siege-Gang Commander (Maybe that's why we hyphenate Tin-Street. Because Goblin players naturally want to hyphenate badass creatures thanks to Siege-Gang Commander) though. I'm the guy who experimented for awhile with four Siege-Gangs, and I still advocate it in Mono-Red builds that maindeck Pyrokinesis. But three is my comfort zone for R/G.
But we can already win that MU pretty easily, especially postboard with grips coming in. Killing lackey is too good though, but I would want my chances of drawing Tin Street to kill the jitte to be higher. I have no problems getting 2 non-colorless mana sources by the third turn. I mean I play 6 fetches, 5 mountains, and 4 taigas. So that is not a problem at all. It is just what you want your MUs to be better for I guess, which is meta dependant, so whatever. Personal prefrence. What do your guys SBs look like for combo. 4CoTV and 4 REBs or 4 Pillars. What? SB is really all I am tweaking right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
I've always sideboarded Lackey out against the mirror. The amount of times he connects in the matchup are ridiculously low and any other option usually amounts to more pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
My vote is on 3 Fanatics. He's the weakest card in the deck dispite all the arguements made for him. That wont change until we add a worse goblin. He's also the first thing you want to cut when adding Chalice from the board.
I side out Piledriver. He's pretty irrelevant in the mirror and curvewise, you always have Incinerator and Tin Street for the 2-slot, so I want to keep lots in the 1-slot (if I can make an opponent Incinerate my Lackey, I'm a happy man, since that's one less dead Warchief).Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
What do you guys do when you board for thresh, iggy, solidarity, and the mirror? I think I have been making the right decisions like:
Solidarity
-3 moggs, -4 incinerators, and -1 tin street. In goes 4 CotV, and 4 pillars
Thresh
-3 mogg, -1 tin street. In goes 4 CotV. Should pyrokinesis be here too?
Iggy
Same as solidarity
Mirror
Don't know what to board out for prokinesis. Probably lackey.
Any other MUs for SBing I didn't mention would help too.
Against combo? -X Incinerators, -X Ringleaders, rest off random utility slots (in our case Tin Street Hooligan). Matrons might be useful, but Ringleaders never factor in unless you're forced to keep subpar hands, which wouldn't win anyways even with Ringleader.
In the mirror, the correct board is to take out Piledrivers. They're your weakest card.