[OLD] UGr Threshold

What do you think about playing werebear instead of the dragon ?

Its difficult to play the dragon without blood moon in play and from my point of view werebear can give us green mana after blood moon came into play and this is a great advantage.

On other hand tarfire makes bigger tarmogoyf and is another weapon for killing creatures like dark confidant, goblin lackey, tarmogoyf after being blocked by another tarmogoyf (with another instant in the graveyard) and more random stuff.

I like this list.

3 [U] Tropical Island
2 [LND] Island (3)
1 [LND] Forest (1)
3 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Werebear

2 Blood Moon

4 [NE] Daze
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Tarfire
3 [OD] Predict

I can't see a reason to play a card as bad as Tarfire in Thresh,Tarmo just doesn't quite justify it's inclusion.Dragon and Werebear certainly both fill different roles,but I could try the Bear in Dragon's place,mainly because I hate to see Dragon in multiples.

I strongly disagree with Tarfire and Predict. Both cards are outclassed by better ones available. Namely cards like Engineered Explosives, Spell Snare, Portent, and better beats in the form of Tarmogoyf.

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

I strongly disagree with Tarfire and Predict. Both cards are outclassed by better ones available. Namely cards like Engineered Explosives, Spell Snare, Portent, and better beats in the form of Tarmogoyf.

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I also agree with that Tarfire-debate, but Predict should be in the deck since it has got more synergy with the whole deck than Mental Note:

You can get rid of dead Tops (or Tops that come too early and are rather disturbing) and turn them into Cardadvantage (same is true for other clunky cards).
You mill 1 card to get 2 (in general) useful ones. These cards will eventually get either onto the board or into the graveyard anyways, which makes Predict a better Metal Note. And a card such as Predict is - in my opinion - necessary to get Threshold a littlebit earlier which is vital when playing additional Threshold-dependant creatures than Mongeese (i.e. Mystic Enforcer/Dragon and/or Werebears).

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

I feel obligated to try any new Threshold build that puts up results. And I like the Option that "Canadian Thresh" gives me.

I did well at my local toury with it, but it always seems like I am on the verge of loosing at any moment. It didn't really feel like the thresh decks I am used to. I took it home and adjusted a couple of things, trying to keep as close to the original concept as possible. A number of things showed up in testing:

1. Wear Away was amazing almost always (I wish I had more of them)
2. Post sideboard, Submerge was amazing in the mirror match.
3. Top was good even without CB in the board.
4. Fire/Ice seemed weak almost always, even against goblins.
5. I liked the Versatility of Stifle
6. Spell Snare was good most of the time.
7. This deck needs more fetchlands
8. I feel this deck needs crypt in the SB, shrinking the opponents creatures was very good.
9. Trygon was not able to deal with the threats fast enough to matter.

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1. Agreed, the all purpose spells are awesome.
2. Submerge looks interesting, I'm not sure what to take out for it.
3. The only thing Top can be run over is Bounce, which you already stated you loved. It's way to mana intensive to be used early, and cards in this deck need to come down and be useful quick.
4. F/I is one of the best cards in the deck and has been consistently awesome for me every time I played the deck. I would like to see some more examples of what exactly was going wrong.
7. Maybe going down to 6 Duals/7-8 Fetch would work, but I haven't had too many manabase issues.
8. Crypt is an option, but I haven't really found it necessary.
9. Preds has been a house for me.

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Originally Posted by Osse

Here's David's Thresh article (Sorry to beat you to it)
http://www.magiceternal.com/legacy/Legacythresh.html

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This is indeed a very well written article. Thanks for the effort! I was just building my version of UGw Thresh but after reading this piece I changed to UGr again. I haven't regretted it since...

I'm thinking of adding 2 or 3 Tormod's Crypt to the side to fight Life From the Loam decks. I'm just not sure it's necessary or if the decks are even going to show up. We'll be having a Legacy tournement soon here in Belgium...

Robrecht.

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Originally Posted by Odd Mutation

This is indeed a very well written article. Thanks for the effort! I was just building my version of UGw Thresh but after reading this piece I changed to UGr again. I haven't regretted it since...

I'm thinking of adding 2 or 3 Tormod's Crypt to the side to fight Life From the Loam decks. I'm just not sure it's necessary or if the decks are even going to show up. We'll be having a Legacy tournement soon here in Belgium...

Robrecht.

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That is EXACTLY the same thing you wrote 1 page before:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...postcount=1112

And I just said that Tormod's Crypts are rather inefficient in fighting Loam-Decks. If you are afraid of Loam, play the black tempo variant as Stifle and Extirpate will save your ass most of the time.

Double Post, but I'm nearly freaking out.

Swans of Bryn Argoll:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...7&d=1207024026

Lightning Bolt becomes Ancestral recall, Chain of Plasma becomes...infinite Cardadvantage?!

Your one step behind us, try to catch up http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=9096

:wink:

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Originally Posted by Adan

Double Post, but I'm nearly freaking out.

Swans of Bryn Argoll:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...7&d=1207024026

Lightning Bolt becomes Ancestral recall, Chain of Plasma becomes...infinite Cardadvantage?!

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Welcome to two weeks ago.

Gimme a break, like I'm paying attention to that forum...

Why isn't it discussed here? Derf is like bugging on me the whole day because of that deck. Taking a closer look, this is like Cephalid breakfast with a lot more protection and consistency.

It's actually still Thresh, but the random topdeck -> "I win" is ridiculous.

I think you should move the discussion into this thread.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Why isn't it discussed here? Derf is like bugging on me the whole day because of that deck. Taking a closer look, this is like Cephalid breakfast with a lot more protection and consistency.

It's actually still Thresh, but the random topdeck -> "I win" is ridiculous.

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I think every team out there is testing this new brokenness - I know some Italians are doing that, as well as gathering up foil asian Chains of Plasma (and preparing for the Swans, obv).

Incidentally, this bugs me somewhat. No matter how much I struggle against it, I am still a proud person, and I find it mildly frustrating that coming up first with the Swans-Thresh build may not score me any points. Unless Nightmare name-drops me in his upcoming article, that is.

I played Thres moon today in a tourney, I thought that blood moon in Threshold would be less powerfull than before because now more decks play basic lands and they are maked for playing around moon efects, but today blood moon was the MVP of the deck :) its still awesome in some pairings.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Gimme a break, like I'm paying attention to that forum...

Why isn't it discussed here? Derf is like bugging on me the whole day because of that deck. Taking a closer look, this is like Cephalid breakfast with a lot more protection and consistency.

It's actually still Thresh, but the random topdeck -> "I win" is ridiculous.

I think you should move the discussion into this thread.

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I tested this for a while. 2-3 Swans is optimal. The decks strong, but I prefer Canadian Thrash in general. It's just a slightly better version of Moonthresh - Of course, Swan sucks in the mirror but owns UGb Thresh.

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Originally Posted by Mental

Of course, Swan sucks in the mirror but owns UGb Thresh.

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What?

He sucks in the mirrormatch? SRSLY? They neither die to burn nor to combat damage and give you infinite cardadvantage. Addionally, they fly.

Why they should own UGb or UGw is a riddle to me since they still get eaten by Swords to Plowshares and Ghastly Demise (and by Thoughtseize indirectly).

Could you please elaborate why it should own UGb? Because you think everyone is playing Smother or what?

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Originally Posted by Adan

What?

He sucks in the mirrormatch? SRSLY? They neither die to burn nor to combat damage and give you infinite cardadvantage. Addionally, they fly.

Why they should own UGb or UGw is a riddle to me since they still get eaten by Swords to Plowshares and Ghastly Demise (and by Thoughtseize indirectly).

Could you please elaborate why it should own UGb? Because you think everyone is playing Smother or what?

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Ghastly Demise sucks. Smother is played much more often.

I meant the swan mirror, and it was kinda a joke. But in seriousness, the card is decent against most optimal non white Thresh Builds, and and is also good against non White Landstill. It justs costs a lot of mana and is clunky in general. Still, I have to say I like it over Fledgling Dragon.

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Originally Posted by Mental

Ghastly Demise sucks. Smother is played much more often.

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What a boring, well-formulated argument...

For me (i.e. in a random meta), Ghastly Demise is better than Smother since there is a lot of stuff (dangerous stuff) which Smother can't handle. Things like 1st Turn Lackey, Dragonstompy, GeddonStax, Affinity and Survival are an issue where I play. That's why Ghastly Demise should be played over Smother.

It's still not a reason why that thing should own UGb Thresh. I think I have to test it with Diffy since UGb has got the advantage of disrupting and/or forcing the onw Counterbalance through counterbackup better than other variants thanks to Thoughtseize.
I could then do the comparison with 5color Thresh which runs Swords to Plowshares.

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Originally Posted by Adan

What a boring, well-formulated argument...

For me (i.e. in a random meta), Ghastly Demise is better than Smother since there is a lot of stuff (dangerous stuff) which Smother can't handle. Things like 1st Turn Lackey, Dragonstompy, GeddonStax, Affinity and Survival are an issue where I play. That's why Ghastly Demise should be played over Smother.

It's still not a reason why that thing should own UGb Thresh. I think I have to test it with Diffy since UGb has got the advantage of disrupting and/or forcing the onw Counterbalance through counterbackup better than other variants thanks to Thoughtseize.
I could then do the comparison with 5color Thresh which runs Swords to Plowshares.

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I would play Smother in almost any meta because there's a lot of time that Demise just can't hit Goyf. That's all there is too it to me - if you're worried about Threshold, Landstill, Breakfast, Survival, etc, play Smother. I use Nimble Mongoose or FoW on the draw to deal with Lackey, and on the play any number of things.

In my testing you have the upper hand over UGb (or better than usual) because you have burn for their Confidants, creatures to match theirs, but one creature that they cannot deal with. Basically, for every creature that they have, you have an answer. But for them, that's not true.

I guess things are different if they play Demise, however, Demise often can't hit Goyf as UBG thresh tends to take a long time to get Threshold.

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Originally Posted by Mental

I would play Smother in almost any meta because there's a lot of time that Demise just can't hit Goyf. That's all there is too it to me - if you're worried about Threshold, Landstill, Breakfast, Survival, etc, play Smother. I use Nimble Mongoose or FoW on the draw to deal with Lackey, and on the play any number of things.

In my testing you have the upper hand over UGb (or better than usual) because you have burn for their Confidants, creatures to match theirs, but one creature that they cannot deal with. Basically, for every creature that they have, you have an answer. But for them, that's not true.

I guess things are different if they play Demise, however, Demise often can't hit Goyf as UBG thresh tends to take a long time to get Threshold.

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"Demise can't hit Goyf most of the time" is like 99,9% pure bullshit since you are using Brainstorm-Ponder-Fetch to generate cardquality anyways. You will eventually get cards into your graveyard in that way, surprise. And who says you need Threshold? 4 or 5 cards are already enough to make Demise good. In the early turns, the Goyf is 3/4 in average and that's not too big for Demise. In the lategame, Demise even gets stronger. it might be true that UGb Thresh reaches Threshold later than the tempobuilds, but this is true for every build that is running Counterbalance due to the higher permanentcount. But UGb runs slightly less permanents since Pithing Needles/Explosives are replaced with thoughtseizes which also can do a lot against the mirrormatch (assuring your own Counterbalance to get through, stealing the oppnent's or simply pick his creatures).

And I don't know against whom you have tested, but you usually play Confidant when you can protect him via Counterbalance since he wins you the mirrormatch if he doesn't gets handled. Test against a competent player...

Against the decks you mentioned, it makes absolutely no difference whether you play Demise or Smother, except for Survival since random Loxodon Hierarchs or Ravenous Baloths can still smash your face in. Demise can kill them and every other creature they run (except that Big Game Hunter maybe, but who plays that crap?).

I'm rather worried about Dragonstompy fatties, the Stax creatures and Goblins. And in the mirrormatch, it doesn't get hit by Spell Snares.

And yeah, Smother can't handle the swans, which will be an issue in the future, so that's why everyone should play Demise in UGb.

The reason why the mirrormatch against UGb is silghtly in favor of UGr is completely different. It's simple: Burn.

UGb has already got an increased lifeloss because of Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Fetchlands, Force of Will.
The 5color build of the Hatfields don't run Dark Confidants, but City of brass, so the same is true here.

But nevertheless, the mirrormatch is decided by who resolves Counterbalance first and then apply pressure. Or at least, who can generate the bigger cardadvantage (meaning Counterbalance as well. And Dark Confidant).

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Originally Posted by Adan

"Demise can't hit Goyf" is like 100% pure bullshit since you are using Brainstorm-Ponder-Fetch to generate cardquality. And who says you need THRESHOLD. 4 or 5 cards are already enough to make Demise good. In the early turns, the Goyf is 3/4 in average and that's not too big for Demise. In the lategame, Demise even gets stronger.

And I don#t know against whom you have tested, but you usually play Confidant when you can protect him via Counterbalance since he wins you the mirrormatch if he doesn't gets handled. Test against a competent player...

Against the decks you mentioned, it makes absolutely no difference whether you play Demise or Smother, except for Survival since random Loxodon Hierarchs or Ravenous Baloths can still smash your face in. Demise can kill them and every other creature they run (except that Big Game Hunter maybe, but who plays that crap?).

I'm rather worried about Dragonstompy fatties, the Stax creatures and Goblins. And in the mirrormatch, it doesn't get hit by Spell Snares.

And yeah, Smother can't handle the swans, which will be an issue in the future, so that's why everyone should play Demise in UGb.

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It all really depends if you are afraid of creatures with CMC > 3 and +1 CMC for your removal, or Black Creatures and an occasional dead card. You may have a point that if Swan Thresh becomes good, you would want Demise. I guess Demise does have some pros. It's much more likely to make someone fuckup and board in Crypt/Leyline against you, which is great, and it is strong against Dragon Stompy.