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I have the same thing in mind. emidln's developments on Doomsday, along with my personal build of 12 (!) protection spells MD (derived from his no-Wish build), makes me comfortable playing against blue.. Confident even. Counterbalance is really the only card that's been a huge pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I'd say it is more likely that they will ban SDT than CB.
The card helps many decks, enables CB-abuse plus it eats a lot of time during tournaments.
If this will happen though, I don't think that Doomsday-builds will walk out of the b/r-process smiling.
Why Silence over the more versatile Chant?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
This is just a random thought, is it possible CB will get banned? I would think that if CB gets banned then Tendrils or LED would go as well. Either way, DDFT is getting a LOT stronger when Silence comes out. I only hope that Wizards doesn't get rid of some key combo card like LED, cause if they do, I will be quitting this game for good.
what would silence replace? we allready got duress/pyro and chant as protection.
Silence doesn't make the cut and CB will not be banned. They just fixed LED in TES and ANT now that you can't float mana between phase steps, and therefore can't cast AdN off the top of your library during your draw step.
Pce,
--DC
Silence is a strictly better than Orim's Chant in Tendrils decks. You don't care about your life total and have other means of preventing damage (like winning). A major problem Tendrils decks have had in the past is that they couldn't be super-aggressive because they would only have Chant backup about half of the time. More than four copies of Chant fixes this problem to let us play more aggressively. Silence is better because it doesn't target. With Runed Halo seeing play, this is a huge deal because it means on of the most effective plays against you outside of Counterbalance is worthless. Splitting Chant/Silence is a good idea to further protect from Meddling Mage. With multiple Chant effects, it's also possible to chant-walk chalice decks completely out of the game on the play while siding heavily for them if you lose game one.
How would a post-silence DD list look like? Are we cutting Red or Green due to the higher presence of white?
I've yet to determine if 5+ chant doomsday in a more aggressive form is worth playing using KGrips/Wipe Aways as the only out (potentially multiples in the main) to CB. My instinct is that it is, but I don't have conclusive testing yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
heavy aggro meta-games disagree with you. Chant >>>>>>>>> Silence in any area infested with Goblins, Merfolk, or elves, even EtW lists like Belcher/old TES, Ichorid and their ilk.
I'm not saying Silence is bad, I'm saying Chant is better to be used in an unknown or undecided meta-game.
D&T is having a hay-day with 12 chant effects. And UWr Scepter-Chant is grinning from ear to ear. They will still lose, but they smile through the pain.
Pce,
--DC
The no attack effect isn't necessary against aggro. If you fetch out extra white sources you put yourself vulnerable to Wastelands. It doesn't really matter because you only cast the spell on your opponent's upkeep anyway. Even goblins is hard pressed to beat you with lackey if they can't cast additional spells to back it up. Ichorid can't win the game due to being unable to cast Therapies/Dread Returns. Belcher and TES still have problems with any chant effect, and if they go all-in on ETW you can goldfish them anyway well before ETW kills you. If elves can't cast spells, they can't combo out and can't beat you. The aggro elves decks still need to cast creatures and attack, which is impossible if they can't play spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Merfolk doesn't goldfish faster than you do, which is why you cast silence on your turn so they can't stifle your shit (leaving their deck with the out of Force of Will or lose). If you're casting Chant with the no attack clause, you could just be winning the game. If it resolves, they're either holding Force and don't care (in which case they'll kill you next turn because you're now down a chant effect and must go off unprotected) or you could have used that chant to go off since they don't have a way to counter it.
Chant functions identically to Silence in every situation where you should be casting it with the exception of Silence not being redirectable to you or vulnerable to protection effects like Runed Halo and True Believer.
Scepter chant has the same vulnerability to the split second ability that it always has. It loses to Krosan Grips/Wipe Aways and it has issues with Extirpate. Should that deck reappear, it's easy to deal with. D&T isn't playable without the assign damage step while mono white aggro is awful against anything that isn't storm combo.
This was a joke...I was poking fun at a fool who plays it here in my town.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Pce,
--DC
So, how is this deck supposed to come out from a possible SDT and LED banning ? This is the storm combo deck that best abuses both; Top is essential for about 80% of the Doomsday piles, and LED,although not being so exploited like, say, in TES, is an important piece of many piles too. Is it possible to prevent somehow this possible loss tuning the maindeck into a new direction, or DD straightly depends onto these 2 card to work? I guess the ban for these 2 is a possibility to take into account, since the current situation..
[In any case, if LED gets out of the game, many decks will die; storm combo will become LEDless ANT with AN being the only effective win-con, Ichorid will be seriously harmed, TES will die (well..Belcher will die too, ok). We'll see..]
How do you know that they might ban LED or SDT?
Let's discuss decks as they are. If there's one thing you should've learned by now, it's that speculating about a ban is never useful. The format is still healthy, I don't expect a banhammer to drop. If Top would get banned, this deck would probably get shelved. Quite certain of that.
Now back to actual discussion.
Ok on the fact that discussing about a banhammer is useless, but there' s still a little possibility that these cards could go out, since they're the ones which are more likely to get the ban because of their power and their impact. I was just asking what would become of this deck if this happened, especially if there would be the possibility to tune it into a different, LED-TOPless way. Sorry for having disturbed you, dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeroenC
I'm curious as to how FDDT does in comparison to TES and ANT. I like the reading of FDDT so far, and like the fact that you can win early, mid and late game while ANT builds are forced to win early game before they start gambling their life away.
I was wondering if a lone Angel's Grace can make it in the maindeck as a possible DD stack. I'm surprised no one runs Hurkyl's Recall against Stax. Not to mention that it bounces your artifacts as well. Here's a big question that I have: How does the deck do against Null Rod? Null Rod is increasingly popular answer to combo in my meta. I know that it kills ANT pretty bad as it stops BOTH pre and post ANT mana. I know that FDDT can probably play through Rods via DD stacks into Rituals and Ill-Gotten gains instead of LEDs.
One last question: Why Grapeshot over Brainfreeze for the Helm combo? Wouldn't Brainfreeze be equally viable? This might allow for non-red FDDT builds focused on UBwg with Xantid Swarms and Grips. Also, among all the troublesome creatures i.e. Teeg, Meddling Mage, Canonist, I find that I don't have an out from Canonist except to Mystical Tutor into Slaughter Pact/bounce on my turn. It seems that Canonist may be the most annoying creature since she stops the Helm combo even after post boarding. What are the advice against her?
Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall are fine against Stax. Rebuild bounces your stuff also.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
I'm sure that a bounce spell can answer a Null Rod with an untapped island/blue dual. Chain of Vapor is sometimes maindecked in ANT and TES.
Brainfreeze sucks against Gaea's Blessing and takes a turn after milling to win. Grapeshot is instant death. Red gives you REB and Pyroblast.
I don't like that Swarm takes a turn either. And it'd in a color you don't really care to see right away. Duress would be a fine way to pick off counters and hate. Thoughtseize has the luxury of being able to nail Canonist, which might be worth the 2 life.
Against Canonist, just use the Helm/SDT stack with Grapeshot.
EDIT: @ Guy talking about LED banning - LED being banned would hurt a lot of storm decks. They already nerfed LED a bit in ANT by making mana empty at all steps or whatever. I don't think that SDT will be banned in Legacy.
Last night I went to my local tournament and made it to top 8 out of 20is people. Here is the list I ran followed by very short tourney report:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Lotus Petal
3x Duress
3x Doomsday
3x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
1x KGrip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm
2x KGrip
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Slaughter Pact
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Doomsday
1x Helm
1x Grapeshot
Round 1: Burn
g1: I keep a decent hand and win with Doomsday: Meditate, Petal, rit, rit, Tendrils and win basically uncontested on turn 4.
g2: Turn 2 IGG loop takes it.
Round 2: Thresh Fish Stuff.garbagedeck
g1: He plays turn 3 Coatl and turn 4 triple Brainstorm and I don't have enough time to setup.
g2: Same thing except he aggros me down to 1 life on turn 5 or 6 and I can't win ...
Round 3: UG Aggro
g1: Turn 4 Doomsday win: Meditate, Petal, rit, rit, Tendrils.
g2: Turn 3 Doomsday win: Top, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils.
Round 4: Goblins
g1: Win on turn 4 with IGG loop.
g2: Barely get there on turn 5 after a mull to 6 VIA IGG loop.
Top 8
Round 5: Goblins
g1: Mull to 5 and everytime I cast Brainstorm I look at: land, land disruption spell ...
g2: Mull to 5 and lose to a savage turn 4 Goblins kill ...
Overall I liked how the deck played and I had fairly shitty draws in about 50% of the games so ... nothing I can do. It really pisses me off that I lost to luck in the top 8 ... but whatever, it happens. Any questions or comments are welcome.
I am starting to think that Red builds of FDDT is better than white builds. This deck should have no problem against aggro so improving the control matchup is crucial. I was wondering who here finds 6 MD protection in the form of 4 Duress, 2 Blast better than 6Duress/Chant mix. I feel that sometimes chant never really solves the problem but Blasts help counter spells AND with luck destroy counterbalance. I'm trying to avoid 4 colors, and aiming for just UBR in FDDT.
Here's my list (It's a little like cheeseburger's NLS)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Burning Wish
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Grapeshot
2 Extirpate