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It's a meta call. I run Wipe Away in my list (FDDT, not TES, but the comparison remains the same) because of my meta (Dragon Stompy, Solidarity, TES). K. Grip is useless against Dragon Stompy as Moon Effects turn off my duals. I run 3x Petal, you guys run Moxen and a set of petals, so maybe it's easier for you to still get green. For me, it's easier to get double blue than it is to get a green mana under Blood Moon effects.
I bring in Wipeaway vs Teeg regardless of if they're playing blue or not. 2 > 1 when it comes to answering an awful card for us. I do board in Wipeaway if I'm down in games. But maybe this will change if I decide to play Swarm. How do you answer the job nicely with Chain? It can't target lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
I meant Teeg. Doesn't come up often to bounce the opponent's only untapped land, when you have 1UU open and your random 1of in hand, and the opponent had a chant in hand, and you didn't discard it with your duresses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
To be fair, it doesn't come up often that a deck is siding both Teegs and Chants. If he's siding only chants, I'm bringing in duresses and maybe Swarms, but not Wipe Away for sure. It's not like Wipe Away is a good card against stifle/chant.
The arguments for Wipe Away sound pretty weak to me. Maybe I just don't have as much experience with the deck, but bouncing lands with Wipe Away or needing to imprint it on a Mox for blue seem like really narrow reasons for running the card. Krosan Grip just seems to do a better job of answering relevant hate cards like Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Chalice, or Canonist. And while Wipe Away does seem pretty good against the other hate bears, I think that you might as well Mystical for Burning Wish into Grapeshot for Teeg, or Mystical for Pyroblast against Meddling Mage.
Also, the more I think about it, the more Duress #4 seems better than Pyroblast #3. Thoughts?
QFT. I'm not going to play less then 4 total Duresses anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
Right now I'm testing 4 Duress, 4 Blast, 4 Chant as my protection suite.Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
Maindeck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Aha, no. 4 Chant, 2 Duress maindeck. 4 Blast 2 Duress sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I know I will be hated for saying this but I have not been a fan of Duress in combo decks that aren't forced to run it since the Iggy Pop days. I really dislike IGG + Duress dissynergy especially if I am forced to cast IGG when the deck isn't cooperating and I'm getting my ass kicked by Goyf(s) and can't go for Ad Nauseam and I really would not like to cast Diminishing Returns against a deck with Force of Will. Here is my problem with Duress, it isn't a reactive defense spell, its just more of a inquisitive/disruption spell.
Maybe it is just my bad luck, but everytime I cast Duress I always see multiple targets that I want to take and even after the Duress resolves and I discard something, I usually can't combo out since they have more pieces of hate. I like Pyroblast since it serves the dual role of stopping Counterbalance and forcing the opponent to have more counters. We all agree on how good Chant is so I don't have to argue that. Over Duress I would love to fit Abeyance into the deck, but I am afraid that would cause a lot of inconsistencies due to its casting cost. Lately I really like Pact of Negation but since it is really only good against counters and SB slots are tight as it is I don't think it deserves a spot. But I am really wondering about this. Has anyone besides me tested out Pact of Negation? What were your experiences with the card? Since this deck can be all about pure speed when it needs to be, turn 1-2 AdN with PoN backup sounds pretty hot. Especially in multiples, TES is somewhat unaffected by Daze (depends on how you set up and what turn it is) and the only other counter you care about if Force of Will, and with PoN it forces them to have double Force of Will or lose which is a very unlikely situation, especially in the earlier turns. From my experience against Thresh-style decks, Duress usually reveals something along the lines of FoW, Stifle, Spell Snare, and other random cards that may or may not pertain to the game.
This is not an argument against Duress in any way, I am just trying to see what other potential protection spells there are out there that people have tested out. Just throwing some newer ideas into the mix.
Duress has some great advantages that it's difficult to find in other disruption pieces:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
- It's good against permanents, and still quite good against counters
- can take discard from the opponent
- You can cast it the turn you go off or not, at your pleasure
- It lets you know what are you going to face in the next turns
- It' on color
Duress is meant as a card against permanents and discard, and does a good job against anything but bears. The fact that it can't take multiple instances of counters is not that remarkable. Even chant can only take 1 Fow away from opponent's deck.
The dissynergy with IGG does occour only in case of counters, chant, and to a lesser extent, Extirpate. And a countered chant suffers the same dissynergy.
Duress is actually the most versatile and overall good protection spell that the deck has after chant.
Pact seems a fine card. I Pyroblast/Shusher's mana requirements in the turn i go off, and Pact overcomes that.
Pyroblast works against MM and CB too, so I don't know if the R is worth the trade. Pact also still suffer the hellbent dissynergy too.
I never tested Pact, just because I don't own any.
Tell us how your testing goes, it might be surprising.
There's no dissynergy with IGG at all. The card is going to the graveyard anyway, except that, instead of being possibly used twice, it's limited to being used once only. Walking into Extirpate when you don't know your opponent has it is much worse than knowing your opponent has it so you don't walk into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Hi folks,
currently testing Bryants list with an added Duress main. This is how it looks at the moment:
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
2 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
// Spells
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [US] Duress
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
What is the trick behind Diminishing Returns? It always feels kind of random to me:
a) I dislike, casting it against U (if I have no Chant-protection)
b) What if your drawn 7 cards lack any win-option (which happened to me already)?
Could Deminishing Returns be cutted for a wishable Ad Nauseam? I have had some situations where a AdN in my board would have been very good.
Comments appreciated,
Shizzow
I guess if you want to play with Cunning Wish you could. There just really aren't that many options in sorcery form though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzow
There is always Mystical Tutor for AdN, and it just costs a blue mana. Adding Cunning Wish is just like putting Simian Spirit Guide back in the Deck. A 3CC card hurts a lot when flipped out from Adn. What's even worse, it can't be used to wish for a win condition. Brainfreeze anyone!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Wishing for Returns is best when your opponents has answer to your Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish was your only way out. It is used to reset crappy, stripped, mulled hands into playable ones. It could also be used as a storm engine, allowing you to have a new set of seven cards to play around with. I believe GreenOne has posted the probability of winning on using Returns based on the number of mana floating in the previous pagesQuote:
Originally Posted by Shizzow
I thought the latent sarcasm pointing out the fact that he wants to use AdN as a sideboard card to wish for would have been detected. *shrugs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Limz
I guess I didn't see thru that one. My bad. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Forget about AdN in the SB :rolleyes: - man it was way to early for me, what a blackout...
Diminishing Returns is solid. It can backfire though, leaving you with: Chant, Chant, Brainstorm, Rite of Flame, Chrome Mox, land, land. It is important that when you are setting up for D.Returns that, if you have the option, leave blue and black mana floating. This has been my preference anyway, with a choice between red and blue mana I usually prefer to have blue floating, but black mana is the #1 priority. D.Returns should also be used only when it has to be.
@jaiminho: I agree with that, but my point is, when I can't find the additional protection spell and am forced to combo off, Duress on Force of Will then going into the IGG loop is not an option since they just bring back FoW and counter IT.
Still, that's IGG's problem, not Duress'. It's irrelevant whether the card, be it Extirpate, Cremate, Force of Will, Daze, Swords to Plowshares or anything else, is in their hand or graveyard, as it will end up doing what it does anyway. But if you Duress it away, it will do that only once and after recurring, which may not even be relevant at all (as in Extirpate).Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
True, every piece of disruption has its pros and cons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Sometimes you can play around it, though.
- Instead of floating 1B after IGG, float 2BB and bring back IT, LED, Duress. It costs only 1B more and works unless the opponent has 2+ counters/stifles between hand and grave.
- Go for AN and hope to get lucky if you're low on life.
- IT->Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns and hope to get lucky again.