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The same thing, I think, was true about thresh a while ago. FWIW, It's a little tricky for me to figure out how a deck that can't "randomly beat anything" is ever going to be legacy competitive. Similarly, people were saying a lot of the same things about Tarmogoyf that are now being said about delver. I can't see delver getting the ban-hammer anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
What an absurd statement. You commit your entire turn to it, it takes more ongoing mana and still can't put Griselbrand or Emrakul into play without casting a terrible 1WW man. As for Ooze the Ooze still has to be reanimated or hard cast @ 2BB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
At this point why would you dick around with Survival and pass the turn when you can slam down Griselbrand and Yawgmoth's Bargain.
Vengevines fighting (through 4 x STP, 4 x SCM, Grafdigger's Cage, Extraction, etc.) ... seems like a decent strategy but not more back breaking then entomb -> reanimate.
With so much hate available how is SotF any more abusive then what's currently running around.
A Delver comes out on turn one on the play. Is blue. Flies. Requires no other commitments other than to play some of the other best cards in the format (Force, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt, Ponder, Stifle, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarps22
The Vengevine / SotF plan requires 7-8 deck slots for those cards. That actually do nothing. I mean the Vine in a vacuum if hardcast is still a decent man but I think we'd agree you're better off casting Thrun or something. After you push the SoTF through, you still need men in your hand, and if you've protected it with counter magic who knows what you have left. Then you have to play other awful cards like Basking Rootwalla.
Look ... the plan is a strong plan but no more strong than just going island -> ponder, ancient tomb -> SnT with Force / MisD backup. Griselbrand / Emrakul. Draw my deck / Rape You.
I think people not owning Show and Tell is all that keeps that card from raping more. I own them but just feel dirty playing them at my weekly legacy.
Unban some stuff before putting more stuff on the ban list. Let the format breathe, I'd love to see G/w SotF versus abusive ass Show and Tell. Give the other colors some power to fight crap like Delver. Give white Land Tax so you can build a white control deck. Give black Mind Twist so it can turn the tide mid game on the control deck. Give me black vise so I can punish the control decks (and play Stasis ...).
What data are you basing your conclusions on? Recent analysis by the Hatfields suggest that RUG Tempo is rather poorly positioned right now with negative match-ups against Maverick and UW Stoneblade (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...formation.html). If its based on perception or experience, head over the RUG thread which only reinforces the conclusions the data suggests. The match-up with UW Stoneblade has become worse with those decks shifting toward a Miracle based strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
I'm more convinced that Sensei's Divining Top will get the axe before Brainstorm in this format. The Miracle mechanic is what will probably push it over the line IMO. Top is already on the watch list because of the logistical issue it presents which is the time lost from repeated use overtime combined with shuffle effects. Its also the most abusive way to exploit Miracle cards in the format (more so than Brainstorm and Jace). Granted that all of them work in synergy together, but Top is what makes it go since it functionally allows you cast them at Miracle cost (compared to Brainstorm which adds a U to the cost of each Miracle card) and at instant speed.
You need GY spell + Reanimate to bring back a fatty and a single swords puts you back to square 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Show and Tell is really good no doubt, but you still need to assemble a 2 card combo minimum.
The problem with Vengevine was that it turned Survival into a one card combo. You drop your Survival, pay 3-4 Green mana next turn, and you suddenly have a huge hasted army that quickly ends the game, even from a losing position. Without Vine the best combo was Loyal Retainer + legend, which is pretty good at times, but in the end it's still usually 1G + GG + 2W to break it off so it was far from game breaking. Show and Tell or Reanimator are all in on the combo, Survival with Vine let you play an already good deck with 4x cards in your deck basically threatening 16 power of haste with every topdeck.
The main problem with Survival + Vine IMO opinion is that it means there is pretty much no reason to play any other creature based deck. Why tempo into a Goyf when you could drop a Survival for the same price and put 7 creatures on the table next turn and still run counter magic?
Some people stay off Show and Tell decks for fear of the mirror, too, which gets sketchy. There's a mono-blue list floating around with Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe, and Fold Into Aether floating around that's pretty beastly for this reason.
RUG Delver has managed to adapt and basically even the Maverick matchup due largely in part to somebody finally figuring out Forked Bolt is a real card, and also partly due to cards like Stifle being decent again. So basically, why on earth would you play Maverick over RUG Delver when Show and Tell steamrolls Maverick (And almost every other deck on the planet), but can't handle RUG Delver?
Show and Tell is what's crippling the format development here, despite it not being in RUG Delver. Show me a deck that beats RUG Delver consistently that can also hang against SnT. Seriously. The best thing I've got is Dredge, and Dredge is far from automatic against either one, and like always, Dredge is in that class of decks that a little sideboard adaptation knocks back down to second tier. MUD with Chalices can do it also, but again, sideboard adaptation will make it only a temporary fix.
I'm personally trying to do it with UW Miracle, but it's still a struggle. Mongoose and Stifle just win sometimes.
No. I drew 7 in response to your StP. I forced it.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
The second card is Yawgmoth's Bargain with Lifelink that deals 7 and a card that Jokulhapses and hits for 15. You have 8 of them. You have brainstorm / ponder to massage all the brokenness.Quote:
Show and Tell is really good no doubt, but you still need to assemble a 2 card combo minimum.
Because Goyf / KotR is good as a standalone card. SotF is a blank. Goyf attacks blocks and wins through a Grafdigger's Cage. Going through a discarding exercise only to have your Vines shwagged by a Surgical is awful. A hand with 2 Vengevines and spells is pretty awful without Survival. A hand with 2 goyfs and spells is fine.Quote:
Why tempo into a Goyf when you could drop a Survival for the same price and put 7 creatures on the table next turn and still run counter magic?
TCDecks, since Delver was printed(October) has RUG as the most placing deck with 3 months, Maverick has 2 months. This month they are tied but with a week left I feel RUG will outpace it for its 4th month on top of the placings. It has evened its MU with Maverick and continues to outplace everything not named Maverick by a wide margin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
Best deck in the format right now.
Yeah, considering that Maverick had 12 months of top placing before that, guess we are fine...Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
I guess if that is how you feel, but has little bearing on actual stats. The months prior had Blade, Zoo, NORUG, and Survival before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Are you okay?
Time to ban Ninja of the Deep Hours and Null Rod.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
CounterTopQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Faerie Stompy
UR Delver (alright this doesn't really count)
Merfolk, hilariously
High Tide
UW Snapcaster Control
Affinity
Should we start banning critters now? Out of the top 2 decks there is only one common denominator and that is green not blue. I say its unfair for one colour to get all the best creatures and when another colour gets a creature that can finally keep pace with nactl it starts an uproar.
Also, please don't ban Ninja of the deep I just got a playset for .50$... lol
Tacosnape, you are overreacting and bullshitting.
Any tempo deck has good matchup against S&T decks, merfolks, decks based on heavy disruption and mana denial. I watched deadguy ale raping them alive - first turn iok, second hymn, third turn wasteland + confidant, fourth turn liliana and so on... S&T didnt have a chance. And please, don't say that maverick is smashed by show and tell decks, at least you can put your KOTR in play via S&T and go for karakas.... I played sneak show against maverick couple of times, and it's a 50:50 matchup. It's not so easy as you say. You must get through thalia, wastelands, KOTRs+wasteland+karakas, qasali and other form of answers....
Why are you whining? S&T decks are not even close to numbers of showing in top 8 like...erhm... maverick, rug, blade, dredge, ur burn and so on.... Where is problem? Storm and high tide are more frustrating combo decks to play against than combo decks cheating large creatures in play (sneak show, reanimator....)
Maverick and Sneak are not 50/50.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
Sneak Show has placed in the top 5 to 10 most winning decks past few months.
Nobody owns Sneaks and Show and Tells. People are just starting to get playsets of Griselbrand.
June announcement ... I want unbannings galore
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I own sneaks and shows along with alot of other people... but I would also like to see some unbannings in June.
What is the timeline for R&D? Do they interact with the DCI at all?
I'm curious now because the banning of Mystical Tutor 2 years ago was pretty controversial, but it makes sense if they were planning to force Miracle on us.
The data we're both using describes two different things. In the post I quoted, you argued that RUG had no "bad match ups". The data I posted talked about direct match ups where RUG went against Maverick & UW Stoneblade. It indicated that RUG has a weak match up against UW Stoneblade and Maverick (also Pox).Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
The data you refer to doesn't describe anything relevant to RUG's match-ups. At best, one could argue that RUG having a high number of placements means it has reasonably strong match-ups: 57% overall win percentage indicates that. However, it has weak individual match ups and can be metagamed out if peope are playing the right decks. Using placement as the basis for determining a deck's match-ups leads to erroneous conclusions. The data doesn't describe what you're claiming it describes, and there are other variables such as frequency of the decks that can impact the placement. If 25% of the field is RUG it will flood top eights.
And what with maverick, RUG, blade, dredge, nic fit, UR burn, reanimator, storm, BUG/team america, aggro loam being in the top 10 mot winning decks past few months? Why they are not problem, and S&T is problem? And we all know which decks constantly hold top 3 that few months. And show and tell is not in that 3...Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
I argue that right now RUG has very few bad match ups. Not none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
The data you showed is 2 months old. RUG has for the past 2 months evolved to be the most winning deck, where during the time of the Hatfield article Stoneblade was the most winning(and also the most played at the opens 14%?). The field may have switched to more RUG but that would lead me to believe that the people playing it think it to be their best option. The data describes exactly as I claim; right now RUG has very few bad match ups in the field. If the top 8s consist of RUG Mav and Blade and RUG keeps out placing them then It is safe to say they are not bad match ups.
Same, except...Quote:
Originally Posted by rxavage
Consider - There's a Grand Prix for Legacy at the end of June. If (un)/banning went into effect prior to the tournament, it would be a good testing tool to see what we have. I certainly wouldn't like a large shake-up in the metagame as it would invalidate several months of preparation just to have a short experiment. :rolleyes:
The DCI did absolutely nothing after they "fixed" Flash in April 2007, only a month prior to GP: Columbus, even though they certainly had knowledge about the detrimental effects it would have on the format. Sure they banned it afterwards but the damage was already done. Given that giant fiasco and how that essentially invalidated years of work (not to mention ruined what was only the 2nd American Legacy GP), I don't think they'd be afraid to pull the trigger on something like an unbanning that close to a large event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
They banned Misstep just prior to GP Amsterdam as well last year. I can see them banning something before GP Ghent and the American GP this year also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Fair enough. I don't think removing several cards from the B&R list at once is a good idea either. My only argument is that I would like to see unbannings and not ridiculous bannings.
Nearly half of those tournaments had less than 20 players. None had 50 or more. The smaller the tournament, the less "top 8" actually means. Admittedly, Vintage inherently has relatively small tournaments, but I do wonder how much Delver actually works in truly top-level Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Worth pointing out, though, that quite a few Legacy staples are in those builds (for example, Tarmogoyf) so advocating banning Delver on the ground that "it gets played in Vintage!" seems rather fallacious.
It's pretty decent for fish decksQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
The RUG 'dominance' can be attributed to people playing it in droves at SCG, as opposed to it doing unfairly well then people showing up with it. Look to europe.
Karakas does not do a whole lot when the show and tell player gets to draw 7-14 cards. The other cards you listed are quite irrelevant to a Show and Tell player.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
People who fail to see that Show and Tell + Grislebrand could create a problem for the format are either a) ignorant of the power level of the combo or b) just super psyched to be able to play Necropotence again, this time for U2 instead of BBB.
real talkQuote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
that is actually what it is now.
easier on the mana + force of will and demonic tutor at instant speed(that is also blue).
the deck is kind of dumb.
Except Necro was a 1-card combo that you could drop turn 1 off of a single Dark Ritual, whereas Show and Tell/Grislebrand is a 2-card combo and it's a little slower. The format also has better tools for dealing with things these days. Pithing Needle comes to mind, Humility out of U/W Control, Stifle out of RUG Tempo (since the opponent is probably low on health by that point that taking 14 damage isn't a possibility), so on and so forth. The format can adapt if it needs to. Let's wait to see Top 8 domination before we start crying, especially considering that the same 3 decks have been dominating Top 8's for way too long now and it's time for a format shift anyway.
I call bullshit on the following:
1. High Tide beating RUG Delver consistently - Just...what? If you're a hybrid of Alix Hatfield and Jesus, you might pull this one out occasionally, but, just....I mean, what?
2. Merfolk beating RUG Delver consistently - You do know that Islandwalk doesn't work when Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt eat your guys, right? This is winnable, but yeaaah. No.
3. Countertop beating RUG Delver consistently - I'll admit, there's 300,000 Countertop builds we could be talking about, and some could be favorable, but I've seen RUG Delver just drop 1-2 dudes and stop Countertop from ever setting up quite a bit.
4. UW Snapcaster Control beating RUG Delver consistently - This is and has been my signature Legacy deck since the printing of Snapcaster Mage. Against top tier players, I can't come out better than 50/50 here. Against average players, I'm about 80-20 though. Granted, Terminus might change this, but it might not.
5. Deadguy Ale beating RUG Delver consistently - Deadguy just rolls over to this deck. And it's not that favored against Show and Tell. Ever seen what happens when Hymn to Tourach gets Misdirected? Deadguy loses. Hard.
6. Maverick being anywhere close to 50/50 against Sneaky Show. Are you high? Maverick is my #2 siganture deck. There is no single match on earth I want to see less. With maximum Revokers, you MIGHT get this to about 40/60. 35/65's a safer estimate, I think.
Dredge is really the best option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Otherwise, I might suggest Dream Halls if your RUG opponent doesn't run Spell Pierce or Hive Mind if your RUG opponent doesn't run Stifle. And even then, I'd hardly consider them favored. I also recognize the irony of suggesting these decks as being "good" against Show and Tell. :smile:
I agree that Griselbrand plus Show and Tell is quite ridiculous - the comparison to Bargain is more apt than that to Necro, though, simply because you're not going to hardcast either in most games (if Grisel draws were delayed like Necroes, it would make the card significantly more beatable, too). I don't think we should talk about banning anything yet, we haven't seen if the deck will actually become as dominant as all that, though I admit the effect Show into Grisel has on a game is shockingly close to Flash into Hulk while even ignoring graveyard vulnerabilities (and no, I'm not claiming Sneak and Show is as good as Flash was).
That being said, there are two problems with Show and Tell. The first is that it hasn't a skill-cap holding it back the same way Storm-decks do. You just don't lose as many games to your deck being incredibly complicated.
The second and biggest problem with Show and Tell is the limited set of decks can interact with it even if the player decides to sideboard heavily (if you stuff four Canonists and four Mindbreak traps into your sideboard, your Storm matchup will improve significantly. The same isn't true for S&T no matter which cards you choose).
To have a chance of dealing with them now that they can often draw 14 as soon as their key-spell resolves (making Phyrexian Metamorph and Karakas not real outs) you need to be either blue with a lot of countermagic/a significant clock or black with a significant clock. What's missing are sideboard options for decks that aren't already naturally strong against combo.
As outlined in my article on bannings, having decks that dominate MD matchups in a non-interactive fashion is part of what gives Eternal formats their identity. When there is no way to make these matchups interactive postboard, that's when we have a problem. What we need is something along the lines of
Preserver of the Natural Order of Things
1G
Creature Elf
If a creature would come into play without being cast, remove it from the game instead.
2/1
or something that in a similar vein makes Show and Tell specifically weak. Intrepid Hero seems like something worth trying out in Maverick until we get a hatebear designed to deal with Show and Tell, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
Doesn't cursed totem deal with griselbrand just fine? That hatebear shuts down more than just show and tell. The last thing I want to see is another gsz-able hatebear and especially one that completely shores up mavericks weaknesses further. Is it fair for a deck to be able to repeatable tutor for any problem for the measly cost of an extra G while mystical tutor remains banned? Creatures with abilities and etb effects are becoming more powerful and efficient than there sorcery counter parts.
Sorcery and instant are very different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by rxavage
Those are reasons why Sneak Show is so good. It ignores 98% of your deck and once SnT resolves that number goes to like 99%(anyone?). The route to winning is clear and simple with it. Most of time the deck loses is due to consistency and usually not because it "couldn't".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
It has been my pet deck since Corey Age top 8'd the GP with it and I would hate to see SnT banned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Really? Thanks for pointing that out.
How about something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
Customs Officer
Creature - Human Advisor
Whenever a nonland, nontoken permanent would enter the battlefield, if it wasn't cast from a hand, exile it instead.
Whenever a spell is cast, if its mana cost wasn't paid, exile it.
2/2
Something like this would stop a whole lot of bullshit.
And I'm pretty sure that SnT will get the axe sooner or later, considering that it's one of those cards that scale with every ridiculous (but overpriced) card that gets printed. Might still take a few years, though.
The choices in the format are: RUG aggro-control, UW aggro-control, GW aggro-control and S&T combo.
Aggro simply doesn't exist anymore (as in Delver is a better Zoo deck than Zoo, and Gobs... RIP), and all the other combo decks pretty much autolose to Delver and any of the 2cmc hatebears that GW plops down turn 2.
There is no need for a GSZ-able answer to S&T otherwise combo won't exist anymore either and the format'll just become Modern for old farts.
Cursed Totem deals with Griselbrand's ability. It doesn't deal with the fact that now there's a 7/7 Flappy Lifestealy demon bonking you on the head. It also doesn't do anything against Emrakul, The Aeons Torn. The only single card I know of that just flat out deals with any guy a SnT can put down is Humility, and it's starting to live in my UW Miracle sideboard just for this reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by rxavage
They ARE Show and Tell. You illustrate my point perfectly!:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit