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@resum :
you have a discard plan post SB and you only have 1 bayou to produce B and no birchlore ranger. It means that this discard plan cannot be used against decks that play wasteland.
You are not able to win the turn you succeed in combo glimpse directly because you don't have any kill MD (Ezuri, Emrakul, mirror entity, joraga warcaller). I think you should play one of them.
This is a misconception gained from valuing individual cards as approximately equal. Cradle is so powerful that drawing 2 of them is still better than drawing 2 forests (since Cradle adds more than 2 mana most of the time) and only slightly worse than drawing cradle-forest. Drawing multiples actually helps you play them through Wasteland as well, so the second one is often helpful. There is simply no reason to play less than 4 as long as you have them. Cradle is the most powerful mana engine this deck can run, you need to max out on them in any combo elves list. I guess 3 would be ok in a list with MD Vengevine but I doubt that is optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Thanks for that...summed up the argument nicely. I have *zero* Cradle's right now, but if I can trade into some, I will. They are the only pricey piece of the deck left to get. GSZ's, Vengevines, Buried Alive, and Living Wishes are all fairly affordable (by legacy standards) so I'm not worried about those.Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
You make me doubt concerning the number of cradle. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
I really hesitate.
Just remember that Cradle makes mulliganing more awkward in a deck that's already anything but good at it. Elves are already plenty broken once they get rolling, making the stable mana source that is basic lands more relevant imo. Granted this gets more marked the higher average manacost you've got but it's still worth keeping in mind.
High risk, high reward. I think its a justified risk in the case of a streamlined Elves list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitium
samman1 would you consider Magus of the Moon for your SB? I know the Cradles would be screwed, but if you use it in the right time could be very good and against some decks it could be game over for them. What do you think about it?
Played at my local FNM this week, went 1-1-1 overall, but I was pleased with the games. I made one misplay that cost me a draw, but that's it, the rest of the games were played as well as the cards could have played and the hands were quite good--sometimes, you just can't win, and I was ok with that because I was happy with how I lost, not unhappy that I lost.
Round 1: Rich with U/B Control (2-0)
Game 1: I fight through some serious hate. I keep a pretty sick hand, Glimpse Heritage Birchlore GSZ Land Land Nettle. I lose the roll, he plays watery grave, I play land nettle go. He brainstorms EOT, next turn, hymn's me. It hits Heritage and Land (FFFFFFFfffffff...). It's fine, I have a GSZ, I can just go find another heritage and draw into a glimpse. Next turn, no land pull, he hymns me again, GSZ and Glimpse (FFFFFFFuuuuuuuuuu...) I persevered though and did what elves does, overwhelm. There's a lot of removal, but there's more elves, and I keep playing them and keeping him tapped out trying to stop it. A mishra's factory keeps me at bay for awhile, there's no reason to lose elves and only do minor damage. I only had 2-4 elves on the board at any given time, but I made it there, eventually I got a lord in play and could generate some mana, I bounce joraga warcaller to hand and swing for lethal next turn.
Game 2: Same deal, except this time I'm not quite so worried about it, I combo off and win through some hate on turn 5 or 6.
1-0-0
Round 2: Casey with Flashless Hulk Combo: (1-1-1)
Game 1: I combo turn 3, emrakul never comes, I draw literally every land in my deck, I bounced with all 4 symbiotes, I burnt every pact, and my hand ended up being 3 green sun zenith's and 12 lands. He combos off on his next turn and wins. My misplay was not thinking in the long term, I never bounced a visionary I just bounced whatever because I was on a strong ass roll and I had something like 40 mana when I fizzled. I don't even know if that can be legitimately considered a misplay, I had 1/3rd of my deck left and somehow all 15 lands were in play or in my hand and I just ran out of shit to do. Emrakul was 2 cards from the top, had I bounced a visionary 2-3 times instead of 1 mana dudes, I would have won.
Game 2: I side in all of my GY hate. I get one relic in play, but I fear that he can play around it by simply saccing a hulk into another hulk or something (so that if the first time the combo leaves he can do it again), so I aim to combo. The combo starts slow, but as elves do, it rolls hard. Emrakul is the second to last card in my deck, this stands as no problem however--I'm currently running off of 3 glimpses because I am frustrated I can't find Emrakul. I end up with 3 cards left in my graveyard, I play a guy, draw 3, play all 4 green sun's for 0 and plop them in the library, start my next turn, I pay 12(!!!) on my upkeep with dudes for pact triggers and swing, in response he goes to combo off on me, he tries to bait my 2 relics in play over and over, but I patiently wait for Body Double to get sacced as Hulk to find Reveillark and blow up our graveyards--with no ability to further combo he loses to a lethal swing.
Game 3: We start the game and within moments go to turns since my combo took too long and I fizzled game 1 (still a little frustrated about that, as this win would have secured me second place). He goes first, which means he also goes last IE: he gets his turn 3. Had I gotten turn 3, I would have sort of won, emrakul trigger would tie anyways. I couldn't combo turn 2 which saddens me. He combos on the 3rd turn and realizes that he accidentally sided out his win condition in a rush to try and get to game three, he sighs and sacrifices mogg fanatic to hit me for 1 and passes the turn, a sigh of relief for myself--I'll take it, but it shouldn't have gotten here.
1-0-1
Round 3: RUG Control: (1-2)
Game 1: I combo off turn 4 after ripping a glimpse off the top, I learned how you go off turn 2 and was very excited to see it in action. I started it very slow via birchlore / Nettle / Nettle, being able to only operate off of one mana. Luckily for me, I top decked like 5 one drops in a row into a third nettle and a summoning pact, realizing that this was my moment, I pacted for heritage, kept pulling cards and generated enough mana to find and play emrakul.
Game 2: I board in some aggro, I have a clear shot to win, I go for a glimpse, he counters it, I pass. Next turn, I go to tap heritages to get enough mana to play GSZ to find Regal, he stifles the trigger (WHAT!?). Next turn, finally, I drop my cradle (he has wasteland in play) and GSZ for 7. In response, he surgical extractions glimpse with lethal on the board--the likelihood that I wouldn't pull one of my remaining 3 glimpses in the 9(!) cards that I drew is low, I had to pass the turn and get swung out by delvers. ((The reason I had 8 creatures and wasn't swinging, is I had about 4 the previous turn, I went to glimpse with a stacked hand, he forced it, so I counted it out and knew I could regal for 9 if I just drop my hand and go for it but it'll take 2 turns, surgical extraction I didn't see coming, nor can I really do anything about it.))
Game 3: I board in more aggro and keep the glimpse plan on the backburner, my opening hand is Champion, Champion, Fyndhorn, Land, Land, GSZ, and Heritage. I keep the shit out of that hand. Turn 2 champion, bolts it. Turn 3 champion, bolts it. GSZ for champion, it lands! I start swinging, I get him down to 1, but he has double delvers up, he snapcasters for bolt on champion and killed something else, delvers swung for the win.
1-1-1
Overall I was super happy with how I played. I went for a way more stream lined list to the emrakul goal. Comboing, so long as glimpse resolved, was almost a given (except once, I mini glimpsed, it was obvious it wouldn't work, but it did draw 3 lands in a row which was .. I guess useful for digging through it, had I gotten a heritage I probably would have been fine). I only ran 3 lords, 4 I guess with my singleton cradle (monetary issue), and it actually felt great. Sometimes I missed arch druid's +1'ing for aggro, but as has been pointed out, relying on lords really makes you prone to removal, by relying on birchlore and heritage, they're cheap and plentiful, removal is easier to deal with by leaps and bounds, comboing is easier, winning is easier.
The games I lost happened because I couldn't win, not because I screwed up, and the one game I did lose because I screwed up was in a super obscure way..at the time, I needed the mana to keep going if I recall, and playing a 2 mana guy wasn't possible to maintain generating mana with nettle, so I think I actually had to play the one drops otherwise I would have been bouncing visionaries.
So on top of an awesome night of playing and meeting some new people, my friend and I decided to each buy a pack of revised edition (the store has them for 30$ a piece). I open it up, and to my surprise cracked a Volcanic Island from it! In a set of 121 rares, the chances of my getting a dual land are like one in every 12 packs, I was stoked.
So I played my list at a recent legacy tournament and I was very pleased with it. Only problem was what samman1 brought up and I might want a game 1 instant kill thing like emrakul main. I'm going to try and find room for it. I only have one bayou because the matchups where I want the discard are combo ones where they normally don't have wasteland and I really want to be able to pass turn 2 with 2 forests up sometimes. I beat 2 junk decks, a burn deck, lost to a B/W stoneforge deck and then drew with my friend playing merfolk. The B/W stoneforge decks just seem like terrible matchups and I'm not sure it's worth trying to make better. I did get unlucky and he never hit vengevines off his hymms. The highlight of the day was when I burned out a junk player who had jitte and sword of body and mind out with mortarpod.
I have played Magus of the moon in SB 2 years ago. I used to play it via chord of calling@3. Whenever I had the opportunity to play a chord@3, I prefered fetching mirror entity for the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
The main advantage of the card is when you play against lands.deck. This lands.deck is no longer played so I don't play magus now.
Hey guys, Long time lurker of the thread. I play a mono green list (similar to IBA's manalord version) that has been doing fairly well:
Lands: 14
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
Creatures: 34
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Regal Force
Other: 12
4 GSZ
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Living Wish
Sb: 15
1 Regal Force
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Emrakul
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Essence Warden
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Masticore
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Gaddock Teeg
I admit that this list is indeed slower than versions which run pact, but I want cards that are good at all stages of the game. Living wish provides utility without clogging the md full of bullets.
I've been struggling with tempo thresh/canadian thresh. I've tried a small white splash for a few absolute laws in the sb, but it was largely unsuccessful. Any advice from players who have positive or even mu's with tempo thresh would greatly be appreciated. I know some players argue the vengevine route. Players who splash black for the vengevine plan: How do you guys board in the VV package? What decks do you bring it in against?
I'm not trying to be a dick, but why do you guys keep going for the Living Wish builds? Its a dead end.. Hasnt produced any significant results in comparison to the other builds (Nick Malatesta's, Ross', Samuel's...).
Go Online and test them, you'll have more fun :)
I have to agree with this sentiment. The day I dropped the living wish mentality, my consistency, strength, and overall success with the deck has greatly improved. Living wish builds are clunky and sometimes actually difficult to win with because you remove your win condition (which is uncounterable) with a counterable substitute (this is relevant, even if you have a board full of elves, a host of cards can remove that position quickly).Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
I agree with the sentiment of wanting a way to fetch Emrakul, of which, some suggestions were made that I may be looking into (although, I believe I'll be building G/W Maverick in the near future, elves gives me too much of a rollercoaster of emotions when I play it haha).
Things like;
Primal Command
Time of Need
Chord of Calling
Fierce Empath
I'm of the opinion that 2 Fierce Empath's would be better than any of those cards, as he's entirely tutorable, relatively cheap to play on the combo turn, draws a card for glimpse, is an elf, and gets Emrakul OR regal force.
No offense taken. I've tested several standardized mono green lists and white splash variants which run md pact, shaman, and emrakul instead of wish. I found these lists to be faster but less consistent and I've been less successful with them. The only thing I really haven't had experience with is testing vengevines either in a U or B splash. As for wish builds not putting up results, I just assumed that was because it's not as common.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
@Kich867: I don't think the counter argument is very valid. Most opponents never counter wish because they assume they will counter what you fetch with it. If you're in mid combo then you can guarantee that your opponent has already spent every counter they have trying to counter glimpse or regal force. I agree that wish can be clunky at times, but pact can be clunky and dangerous especially when your trying to set up the combo.
It was the standard for awhile, no one really did anything with it, then Ross came along and blew some minds, so we stopped doing it because it's usually pretty bad. My problem was this, when do you even play Living Wish? What if you don't see another one, you can't use it as an effective tutor and as a tutor for combo pieces it's -far- and away the worst. It hurts your combo turn, it hurts your sideboard, it forces you to wait until you find a second one (if you even can) in order to play it during your combo turn, otherwise you want to use it to find emrakul when you CAN get that mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgottenforce
Why can't you use it as an effective tutor? When you combo out, there's no way in the world you won't see another one unless your in the extremely unlikely scenario that you've played 2-3 copies and the last 1 or 2 are at the very bottom of your deck and let's face it with all these shuffle effects that's extremely rare. When do you play wish? At any point during the game which is more than I can say for pact. I completely agree with you that pact is better on your combo turn, but i've only had a few cases where the 2 mana for wish + the cost of whatever I fetch prevent me from the win and if I didn't win that turn then I most likely won the following turn. I feel that I've had more situations where I had pact in hand and was missing some piece of acceleration to go off but I lacked mana to safely pay its upkeep cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
I know wish sbs seem more cute than effective, but having a g1 answer to reanimator and dredge in the form of bojuka bog or faerie macabre and being free from having to run bullets in the main seem worth it to me.
On paper, 2 mana doesn't sound like a lot to pay, but IF elves is going to fail to combo it is going to happen early, and you can't afford that two mana. If you combo, you'll likely win, Wish is deceptive because it's like, "Hey you can actually just not even put emrakul and other bullshit in the mainboard and focus just on elves!".. except you remove a ton of pieces from the main board to put in the sideboard to justify running wish..so it doesn't actually help you that much because it's just lowering your consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgottenforce
This was originally a very long exhausting post explaining to why Living Wish is outclassed by Pact, but it's probably not worth going that in depth if you're set on it. I mean, your build is only actually running 4 searches.
In your build, Living Wish has 1 target during a combo, Emrakul. That's very inflexible.. (Obviously you have Archdruid and Ranger in there, but you didn't put any of the combo in there which is hurtful).
My deck has 12 ways to find Heritage, Nettle, and Symbiote. Yours has 8. Despite that you have 4 ways to find Emrakul, it doesn't actually matter, because the consistency of the combo is what finds Emrakul, not living wish. You don't have to rely on it to find him because if your combo turn is smooth and good, like Pact and GSZ make it, you'll almost always find him, I've only ever not found him once so far and it was just unlucky that all 15 of my lands were on the upper half of my deck.
That's why I asked, when do you actually play Wish if not for Emrakul during your combo turn? What does it get besides him that actually helps you win the combo turn?
In a super ideal world there's always the next turn to win, but the number of my games that go down to the wire are numerous and frequent, that next turn is often not there when you were trying to set your combo up through 2 delvers a goyf and daze / fow / bolts or back to back hymns.
The best argument I can see for Living Wish is to be able to find Gaea's Cradle consistently. Other than that, Living Wish is really weak for the deck. Smart opponents WILL counter Living Wish, and that will ruin your day very faster. Consider that too that Spell Snare is becoming ubiquitous rather quickly in all the Tempo decks, and that's the last card you want to have to resolve to keep going off when you can otherwise ignore it.
Fair points rukcus. Cradle, Regal Force, emrakul, and shaman are my usual targets. I agree that spell snare is very popular at the moment and that is certainly bad for wish. Do you guys disagree then that wish>pact in almost all situations except the combo turn?Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
My matchup with tempo thresh seems to be about even if not slightly unfavorable. Anyone having solid success in this match up?
@kich: Wish is definitely lackluster during the combo turn. But when I reach the point of comboing off, it's pretty unlikely I don't win even if i have a wish in hand. The main purpose of wish is to help setup by grabbing regal force, quirion ranger, or cradle. I agree that during your combo turn grabbing emrakul with it is bad in comparison to just drawing out your deck and finding your 1 of and casting him but it doesn't matter because at that point you have the win. Usually, if I'm comboing off and all I have are wishes I'll fetch a one drop usually essence warden or ranger (which is bad I know) to keep the combo going. 90% of the time, I'm still able to combo off and win that turn. Also, keep in mind that my deck relies less on heritage druid and nettle sentinel because I run 4 priest and 3 archdruid. Untapping with either one of them usually enables me to combo off the following turn, or cast wish for regal force and then combo off. I apologize for bringing this topic up again if it's already been discussed in detail. I'll peruse the previous pages and look for that post explaining why pact is >wish.
On a separate note, could someone explain their vengevine sb strategy to me?
I think the point is that why would you pay 1G when you can pay 0? During the combo turn your mana production can either be just-not-enough or it blows up into all the mana you will certainly need. That extra two mana early on will very often cause your end game mana production to diverge to infinity. I know it won't grab Emrakul necessarily but the negative scenario of the probability that you don't draw into him is far compensated by the consistency and extra mana the other tutors offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgottenforce
If you want cradle then I swear by crop rotation. 3 cradle main, 2 crop rotation. Saccing cradle to find cradle is so clutch.
Maybe if they're bad on game one? If you're running elves, which should be apparent when you get 17 mana to play Wish + Emrakul, under what condition would they not counter it? Pact is everything but clunky, that's why it's run over wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgottenforce
Basically depending on matchup, whenever I board in BA/VV, I take out 3 summoning pacts( I always do this), and then normally 2 priest of titania, 1 regal force, and 1 emrakul. If you're boarding in 4 vengevines then I would take out another random non-1 drop elf, unless all your 2 drops left are visionaries, then I take out a heritage druid. I keep in the emrakul game 3 sometimes because if I smashed them with VV, they probably bring in GY hate and might overcomit to it so I can combo easier.
I really don't care about the combo turn because I almost always win regardless of having wish in my hand or not. I'm talking about those other times when you have pact and no glimpse and pact ends up dead in your hand. I do like the thought of crop rotation and admit that I haven't tested it but it sounds amazing on paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiolosse
@Kich: Your opponent more than likely is going to counter everything before the point of reaching 17 mana, and if they do counter it you're more than likely going off so just draw out your deck and cast another one. Pact is clunky when your not going off and causes you to take risks when casted on a non combo turn.
@resum: Thanks a lot for the reply. What matches do you bring it in against?
The Vengevine plan postboard is just another angle from which to attack, so it obviously comes in against decks where your first angle (glimpse combo) isn't effective enough. The best example is a deck like Bug-still that has a plethora of removal and counters, including Pernicious Deed but is largely unprepared to deal with recurring threat of Vengevine.
On Summoner's Pact: Since when is taking risks a necessarily bad thing? Pact is a much more mana-efficient card than Wish, and also doesn't necessitate 4+ SB slots be devoted to it. This does come with some downside of game loss risk, but this is mitigated by tight play.
I'm having problems with the VV SB plan against BUG. Maybe it is just my meta, but everyone seems to play Snapcaster + Churgical Extraction. And this little combo is really backbreaking for the VVplan. Anyone else that is having this problem?
That may cause some issues. You might have to write off this matchup as a Loss and consider a different plan or deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
No it isn't? Pact costs you 4 mana unless you're winning that turn - that is a giant liability even if you don't lose to it. Having to spend 4+ slots on Wish simulary isn't all that bad in elves since you rarely want to board more than 5-6 against any deck anyhow, exception being GY dependent decks, in whose cases cards like Faerie or Ooze can hardly be considered superflous.Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
On a similar note, Emrakul is a great sideboard card against milling strategies. Cradle is significantly better versus decks not running mass removal or wasteland. Hell, I used to side out my Wishes when I still ran those builds in favor of the same silver bullets they would otherwise tutor for in order to preserve combo spots in the MD.
It's true that pact is better with an active Glimpse, but having an unmolested Glimpse and mana engine to support it is already enough game over (if not that turn) that the deck gains more from being able to have game in the many, many instances of the opponent being able to disrupt the optimal turn of events.
Pact only costs you 4 mana once you've already accrued significant value from it, a cost that is far smaller than the initial investment of 2 mana required for Living Wish. In a deck built upon cheap spells, Pact allows explosive plays that Wish does not. Wish is also a more narrow card, since it's versatility is limited by the SB space devoted to it. This commitment of SB space is incredibly relevant, as even if you only want to bring in a few cards (I rarely bring in even 5-6, save the times Vengevine comes in) you still must devote slots to various matchups, notably dredge and other combo decks.
It's obvious that Pact is better mid-combo (although not irrelevant) but Pact is simply better in nearly every situation, because it fits the explosive nature of the deck. Living Wish for some arbitrary bullet is not a line that will single-handedly win you games, except against the linear decks where Wish is often too slow to make a difference. It is thus not worth sacrificing the speed this deck is built to exploit.
How was the championship for you? I read you lose first match in some report.Quote:
Originally Posted by samman1
I will play a similar list this weekend but I am planning to play a single Ezuri in addition to Mirror entity, because it is my first experience with elves, and sometimes when I combo out I find a situation where a GSZ would solve my problem but I don't have nothing to keep going or to win, and have not so much mana, so Ezuri could be a good choice.
Also, I don't know when to go for Priest of Titania because my usual targets are Symbiote, heritage, nettle and Fauna if I choose the VV plan, so Priest with summoning sickness is feeling weak.
Finally I don't have time to get all sideboard, so I was thinking to put the natural order- progenitus combo in 4 slots for those matchups where you don't want to take out VV and the combo plan is not a good choice, and then fill the other slots with graveyard hate (5), artifact hate (2), and combo (3) and the last vengevine.
Well, your advice would be very welcome. Thanks!
I disagree that Pact is better in nearly every situation. When you have the mana available to cast pact safely, living wish can do just about the same thing. Sure it's at an extra 2 mana and yes that can sometimes impact your whole turn. But what about those times that you have pact but not a reliable way to cast it and live through the next turn? Living wish is good in all these scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
Dedicating 3-4 sb slots to living wish isn't that big of a deal at all. Keep in mind that your also saving a few slots in your md with not having to run emrakul or shaman in your 60. As for committing sb slots to battle gy decks and combo decks wish can actually strengthen your matchups vs these decks. Having 1 bojuka bog in the board with 4 wish md is very effective tech vs gy based decks.
Your argument that wish fetching an arbitrary bullet by itself does not win you games is very true. But the fact is I'm not fetching arbitrary bullets unless i'm in a pinch. I'm fetching cradle or regal force or emrakul--cards that will win you the game. And the cool thing is I can fetch these cards whenever I have 2 mana and not worry about losing the next turn if my mana production gets bolted.
It's getting kind of useless to keep bringing this up, but the difference between having 4 mana available and casting pact VS living wish is on the scale of winning or losing most games. If you can produce 4 mana, I would want pact over living wish every time. Wish + Whatever you wished for is 3 mana, whereas Pact is 1. That extra 2 mana is two more elves, two more cards, and that many more untaps of nettle sentinels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgottenforce
No one is telling you the living wish doesn't work, it's just that through months of experience testing the card and becoming better at playing pact, that there's just no reason for it. It's almost guaranteed to slow you down a turn and that's a hell of a lot more dangerous than having to pay 4 mana next upkeep, which is absurdly easy to do barring a random board wipe. There are nearly infinite ways of producing 4 mana in this deck even if you only hit one land drop and it's like turn 3..
And under what circumstance do your scenarios even happen? If you can pay for Pact, no, living wish doesn't do about the same thing, it does it a turn later, which is kind of the point. Your bullets VS artifacts and enchantments with a wish cost 5-6 mana, pact costs 3-4. That's the difference between doing it now or doing it next turn.
There's even been games where I combo'd off and ran out of steam before hitting 17 mana because I can't get multiples of the same thing with living wish <--- That is extremely relevant, sometimes it's not about having flexibility, it's about getting shit you actually need, and Wish can only do that once unless you wreck your mainboard for it. During a combo my targets are almost universally wirewood symbiotes. There's been plenty of games where I find one and need to fetch the rest to keep going, Wish can't do that, that's kind of a big deal.
And what decks does Living Wish even give you game against? Dredge? Reanimator? By the time you even figure out what you're playing against you're long since dead because Iona hit the table turn 2 and you're fucked before you can even cast living wish. Dredge, a faerie macabre -might- slow them down, it's no guarantee. It's a better game plan to just focus most of the sideboard towards graveyard shit because it's just about the only thing that kills us reliably (even down to Tarmogoyf's and Snapcasters).
This fear that you'll lose the game from pact is unwarranted and confusing, why would you ever pact before you cast glimpse, if glimpse resolves, you should win. This flexibility or setting up of your combo turn you think you get from living wish doesn't really happen that often because of how slow it is, if you're casting Wish just to find something, you're probably looking at a non-existent combo turn--hoping you'll top deck a glimpse. Because if you had a glimpse in hand, you'd rather have a pact with it...
At that point, you might as well just run 4 emrakuls maindeck because that's the only real reason you'd run wish, to have multiple ways to find him, but you'll find him anyways just comboing in a far more streamlined, faster, more consistent, better way. And if you lose to upkeep triggers, I dunno, find something to help you out with that, I've never lost to one, I just check my graveyard after I cast emrakul..
Ross, I must ask, how often do you play Elves? Not out of any doubt, but tournament reports here are fairly low, and you presence in these boards is rather sporadic. I'd like to know if you're playing this deck in regular intervals, if you do, what are thoughts on the meta and how to combat it, and if you could put up some reports. And it'd be awesome if you could post a list.
Furthermore, is no one paying attention to the tournament report up for elves right now?
I stopped paying attention after I noticed 3x GSZ 3x Wirewood Symbiote.......Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
My thoughts on Living Wish is that the slot would better be served by Green Sun Zenith. Prior to that card, Living Wish builds made sense as a versatile tutor. But now, GSZ is served as the "non-combo turn tutor". Therefore, I believe that the strongest tutor package to be:
4 GSZ
2-3 Summoner's Pact
After these, playing Living Wish is acceptable; but never before.
The Summoner's Pact is usually boarded out against decks that Vengevine would be coming in. This is to address the removal suite/sweepers that would normally kill you on a pass-the-turn Pact play.
Do you play Elves at all on a regular basis, rukcus? If you do, I'd like to see your current list. My issue with this deck (and I may face some criticism for this) is that there is nowhere close to a "core" of the deck, especially with regards to Cradle and Wish. Furthermore, placement with the deck at high-level tournaments is so sporadic, it's hard to judge whether that build was correct, if it was pilot skill, if it was simple luck, or some combination of the three.
Olivier Pamart placed 1st at 57 a player event - Magic Bazaar Mensuel
Here's the list: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2228
MD:
12 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Vengevine
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB:
3 Karakas
1 Progenitus
4 Natural Order
3 Dismember
2 Krosan Grip
2 Scavenging Ooze
and here's the Finale de la Coupe de France Legacy (76 players) top8 Decklist: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2226
Looking forward for a report Samuel!
This is my list (has not changed for several months)Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
2 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Gaea's Cradle
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Priest of Titania
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Summoner's Pact
Sideboard
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mortarpod
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vengevine
The day that Survival is unbanned, I would make the following changes:
-4 GSZ
-2 Bayou
-1 Summoner's Pact
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-2 Birchlore Rangers
-1 Regal Force
+2 Taiga
+3 Survival of the Fittest
+1 Anger
+1 Masked Admirers
+2 Priest of Titania
+1 Elvish Spirit Guide
+1 Quirion Ranger
+1 Elvish Messenger
etc you get the point. It essentially turns into EPIC Survival Elves, and goes off everytime you untap with Survival.
Lots of stuff to address in this post, let me apologize ahead of time if i miss anything. This line is particular sums up the reason why i play wish over pact: "why would you ever pact before you cast glimpse, if glimpse resolves, you should win." This implies that you only really cast pact during the combo turn. So it sounds like you're saying pact is reliant on glimpse to be good. In fact most of your argument is based on pact just being better during the combo turn, but even then wish gets the job done well enough to win. You're right that when glimpse resolves, you pretty much win that's true in a deck running wish over pact as well. Wish just has the bonus of being useful every other time too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
So what happens when you just don't find a glimpse in your opening hand and you have a pact? In that situation the 4 mana next upkeep can get pretty significant so pact becomes much more risky. Wish doesnt rely on glimpse, it's good in almost all situations albeit a bit slow. Wish for cradle, ranger, regal force, or archdruid does indeed set up the combo for you and you dont have to resolve a glimpse or risk losing the game to do that.
It's pretty obvious when your facing dredge after turn 1. I've won games wishing for bog or macabre while i was on the play vs dredge and reanimate. On the draw winning g1 is harder, but possible. Game 2, i bring in 4 macabre and leave my bog in the board effectively giving me 8 cards vs dredge or reanimate that really only take up 5 slots of sb space.
The knowledge of whether to keep a hand (sometimes due to there not being a glimpse in it) is something you get over time. If I have absolutely no business, I won't keep it, if I have no glimpse but a lot of dudes to beat with sometimes I'll keep it and just go aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgottenforce
These "Well what if.." scenarios your throwing at Pact to try and point out how much better living wish is has been done, many pages ago, which resulted in a long period of people running wish, which was then stopped after people realized that it just slows the deck down too much.
What do you actually wish for, realistically, besides silver bullets to decks you'll probably lose against anyways game 1 that you could just sideboard in and probably beat game 2 and 3? Regal Force and Emrakul seem to be the two things you've brought up the most.
The likelihood that you could living wish for regal force and pass turn because you can produce -exactly- 7 mana and still be able to play it next turn (in the event your lord, because it's actually somewhat hard to frontload 7 mana without one / cradle, doesn't die and regal force doesn't get discarded) is low.
Furthermore, if you could produce exactly 7 mana, you could...pact for regal force and just play it this turn. Reanimator and Dredge aren't the only two decks in the format, we don't usually win slow tedious games, speed is very, very much of the essence.
They're functionally identical cards outside of being able to tutor lands and emrakul, which is almost largely irrelevant outside of Bojuka Bog, which is still a shitty way to deal with graveyards anyways.
Running 4x Cradles is better than running 4x wish for them (I believe earlier in the thread ross proved that it's statistically insignificant the amount of times you pull a cradle and no other mana producing land), and I'd honestly rather fit in a Fierce Empath or two into the maindeck and be able to pact/gsz for them when I hit that "I have 30 mana but still can't find emrakul" games.
Here is the list I played last WE in the French final Legacy tournament :
2 verdant catacombs
2 windswepth heath
2 wooded foothills
5 forets
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
3 gaea's cradle
2 fyndhorn elves
1 llanovar elves
3 quirion ranger
2 fauna shaman
1 priest of titania
3 elvish visionary
3 Vengevine
4 nettle sentinel
4 wirewood symbiot
3 birchlore rangers
4 heritage druid
1 regal force
1 mirror entity
1 viridian shaman
4 glimpse of nature
3 chord of calling
4 green sun's zenith
1 crop rotation
SB :
2 krosan grip (D&T, maverick, painter, MUD, affinity, landstill)
1 goblin sharpshooter (D&T, maverick, peacekeeper)
1 faerie macabre (combo tendrills, reanimator, dredge, punishing fire, loam)
2 surgical extraction (TT, reanimator, dredge, punishing fire, loam
1 scavenging ooze (reanimator, dredge, TT, tempo zoo, burn, sligh, punishing fire, loam)
1 gaddock teeg (combo tendrills)
1 sylvan safekeeper (combo tendrills)
1 children of korlis (combo tendrills, dredge)
1 caller of the claw (every deck playing mass removal, in particular pernicious deed ans perish)
3 natural order (maverick, tempo thres, tempo Zoo)
1 Progenitus
Round 1 : berserk GRw (he will TOP8)
1st game : he wins the toss, he plays noble hierarch T1 and kavru predator T2. I play llanovar T1. Turn 2 : I play nettle, heritage druid, then cradle, quirion ranger, visionnaire, symbiot, visionnaire, symbiot, then crop rotation, GSZ@7 -> regal force -> glimpse FTW. Kill T2!!1/0
2nd game : I side in NO plan. I play NO T3. T4, I begin a glimpse combo then fizzle : I have at least 10 creatures on the battlefield (2 VV) and attack with progenitus.He has tarmogoyf and kavru on the board and 3 cards in hand. He attacks with a 5/6 tarmogoyf and I make an ugly, enormous missplay : I defend with only 2 VV (I could have defended with 4 other creatures). Double berserk on tarmogoyf FTW. 1/1
3rd game : I mulligan 4 with no lands in hand. 1/2
0/1/0
Round 2 : tempo thresold
game 1 : I mulligan 6. He controls me well but I make a combo glimpse T7 FTW. 1/0
Game 2 : I make a combo titania/symbiot/mirror T5. 2/0
1/1/0
round 3 : burn
game 1 : combo glimpse T4. 1/0
game 2 : combo glimpse T6. 2/0
2/1/0
round 4 : dredge
game 1 : He wins the toss and give me the first play (I understand he plays dredge). I mulligan 5. He doesn't have any dredge and he has to hardcast narcoamibe. He manages to make 4 tokens with cabal therapy then attack. I sacrifice an heritage druid by defending to remove his two bridge from below, then make a combo glimpse for the win. 1/0
game 2 : he decides to begin. T3 : he plays breakthrough@0 and has at least 20 cards in the graveyard (4 bridges). He flashbacks a creature to make tokens, I have 2 untapped creatures and an untapped forest. In response to bridge trigger ability and cabal therapy effect, I play crop rotation -> cradle, tap all my permanents to play chord@1 -> children of korlis -> sacrifice -> remove bridges.
two turns later, I begin a combo glimpse that fizzle rather late : I managed to put in play sharpshooter and many creatures (2 quirion ranger and 2 symbiot).
He plays dread return -> blazing archon.
At my turn, I manage to untap 5 times sharpshooter to kill blazing archon FTW. 2/0.
3/1/0
Round 5 : tempo thresold.
Game 1 : I mulligan 5. He kills my 2 first creatures with dismember (-8 life points), he plays FOW on glimpse (-1 life) and fetches 2 lands (-2 lives). I hardcast VV and easily finishes him. 1/0
Game 2 : he plays delver T1 then 2 other delvers T2, then flip the 3 delvers T3 and show me brainstorm and FOW : I concede. Brillant play! 1/1
Game 3 : I win with an aggro/VV plan. 2/1
4/1/0
I only need to win the 6th game to make TOP8.
round 6 : tempo zoo, my worst MU! What a pity!!! My opponent is Cyril Terroy, the master of this deck (20th at Amsterdam GP), he will make TOP4.
1st game : he controls me easily until I have 5 lives. I manage to put regal in play then draw 5 cards. No out for me, he finishes me with a lightning bolt and delver. 0/1
2nd game : I have 1 forest, 2 nettle, 1 heritage druid, 1 visionnaire and 2 glimpse in hand.
He played force of will when I played heritage druid. Very good choice! If he had not played that, I would have win this game with my two glimpses in hand. 0/2.
Bye Bye TOP8!
4/2/0
round 7 : tempo thresold
Game 1 : I mulligan 6, he wins the toss and play fetchland and grim lavamancer :frown:. He will blast a creature each turn then make me die slowly. 0/1
Game 2 : I make combo glimpse T4 for the win. 1/1.
Game 3 : the same as 1st game. grim T1 FTW. :frown:
He will explain me at the end of the round that he only plays 1 grim lavamancer. :frown::mad::eek::cry:
4/3/0.
Conclusion : it wasn't my tournament, I mulliganed too much and have drawn very few cradle. I think I didn't deserve to win because of my 1st round missplay. I feel guilty...
@soiber2000
I don't think Ezuri is a good slot in my list because in 95% of the cases, I have better cards to play. Between Ezuri and mirror entity, you have to choose.
during the GP, I didn't lose my first round.
I made :
bye : win
porcelaine stompy : win
mystic bant : win
maverick : lose
zoo : win
bant : win
UB aggro control : win
team america : win
Elfball (combo Emrakul) : win
painter RU : lose
cawblade UW : win
sneak show : win
ANT : win
merfolk : win
sneak show : lose
tempo thres : win.
I played last WE a list with NO plan in SB. You have to decide when you side in this plan.
It is a difficult choice :
maverick? I don't think it is a good solution because of aven mindcensor and gaddock teeg,
tempo thres? Good choice, I think.
Tempo zoo? it is very difficult to play NO because the opponents blasts us at least 1 creature each turn.
zoo, berserk? I think it is efficient.
team america? elfball doesn't need NO to win.
Esperblade? bad choice because of perish.
Like every SB plan, it is a question on metagame.
Last point : Titania.
Last WE, this card made me win only once. And 3 times, I would have prefered playing fauna shaman. I won't play titania next tournament.
I think my list is an hybrid concept between elfball and aggro elves. The interest is to switch easily between 3 main gameplans :
combo glimpse,
combo infinite mana,
aggro VV (in particular fauna/VV tricks).
It is difficult to play this deck and very easy to make missplays!!!
But I think it is very powerful because your opponent cannot know what threats we play. VV MD is awesome.