[DTB] Blade Control

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Originally Posted by Lejay

This is precisely the reason why he had a lot of success.
Currently people are running a lot of extra-hate because I presented a lot of confidence on this forum about Omniclash being the best deck in the format. This can be checked by watching people's sideboards and the answers people gave in the top8 profiles from last week-end. With a spotlight on his face the deck is hated a ton and that hate has some splash damage on the rest of the combos. There was only 1 non-omnitell combo deck in the last SCG top16 : elves, that either can dodge several kind of hates or has alternative plans.
With everybody hating a lot the deck (which still placed one player in the top8 and another one top16), bonus goes to people letting the others do the job for them, having most combo decks crushed in the early rounds. People like Todd Anderson, with a deck able to out grind very reliably these decks that focus on beating combo with their sideboard or even their main deck, have a very good time navigating into this kind of metagame.
In Columbus, Todd Anderson's only loss was to Omnitell.

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I was his OmniTell opponent, recurring discard game 1 got me good.. Game 2 he did not keep any disruption but kept a t2 Geist hand, I just happened to have the nuts and kill him turn 2 after he tapped out. Game 3 I opened 3 Brainstorms and got my Show and Tell taken away with Thoughtseize, and then I floated a Dream Halls + Enter the Infinite on top of my library until I got to hardcast-Dream Halls mana. He didn't see the play of Wasting my fetch, I don't blame him. Meddling Mage was actually deadly if Dream Halls were named instead of Cunning Wish, I happened to remember his list the previous week and boarded in a Sapphire Charm and killed him after drawing my deck.

I think I got a lot of free-wins due to this deck being somewhat "newer". And a BUG opponent mulling to Deathrite Shaman since I was on the draw 80% of my matches.

Stoneblade is still a scary deck to play against, I'm still not very confident about my game 1s against Stoneblade or BUG. Although permanent based hate is every combo player's nightmare. You must have an alternative plan against Leyline, experienced combo players will even mulligan until they see it because their opponent have no other relevant interactions. Running Ethersworn Canoist / Meddling Mage is an excellent part to start hating out combo, even Detention Sphere is somewhat hard to play against and flexible against other decks. Todd's deck was set-up even more fair than the older Deathblade decks, but dedicated powerful silver-bullets in the sideboard to hate out popular combo decks. Most newer storm player will straight up fold to a Meddling Mage / Ethersworn Canoist because they don't expect Stoneblade to bring in those cards in most cases.

Since counterspells seem very mediocore in the current meta against these "fair" decks, I suggest a mixture of heavy permanent-based hate in the sideboard for Stoneblade in the future.

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Originally Posted by Jessenator

Since counterspells seem very mediocore in the current meta against these "fair" decks, I suggest a mixture of heavy permanent-based hate in the sideboard for Stoneblade in the future.

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You aren't bringing in counters against fair decks, so why does it matter if they are in the meta? The question is what is the best form of combo hate for your sideboard. I still think Flusterstorm is the strongest hate. It goes live from turn 1, you can flash it back with Snapcaster, and it is a must answer (for Storm at least). Canonist and Meddling Mage are both powerful, but less flexible. Each has their strengths against various combo decks, but if I am dedicating slots in my board to "combo," Flusterstorm is my go to.

Edit: It seems like one of the greatest strengths of Esper, Lingering Souls, has been largely negated by the amount of Deathrite Shamans running around. Anyone have any experience with a Blade list like this. It is basically just Esper with a playset of Deathrite Shamans added. I wanted to find a way to jam Wasteland into Esper and Deathrite works pretty well with that plan. The problem is that you are still going into 4 colors and adding colorless lands and his list is still running LS.

I was thinking something like this:

Creatures [13]
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique

Artifacts [3]
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered Explosives

Instants [13]
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
1x Counterspell

Sorceries [6]
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Ponder

Planeswalkers [3]
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands[23]
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas
3x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains

I cut the Lingering Souls for Ponder/4th Force because the blue count was pretty low. They could probably turn into something else (Vindicate, Supreme Verdict) but this is a starting place.

Flusterstorm is ironically marginal against storm because they generally either strip it from your hand before going off or silence you (depending on the storm variant). One way or another, it's rare to actually be able to fluster their tendrils, usually because the storm player punted.

It can be good at winning counter wars, though, and is maybe good against Omniclash since they'll rarely be able to pay (but may have Flusterstorms of their own). You could occassionally catch Hide Tide unaware as well, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by apistat_commander

You aren't bringing in counters against fair decks, so why does it matter if they are in the meta? The question is what is the best form of combo hate for your sideboard. I still think Flusterstorm is the strongest hate. It goes live from turn 1, you can flash it back with Snapcaster, and it is a must answer (for Storm at least). Canonist and Meddling Mage are both powerful, but less flexible. Each has their strengths against various combo decks, but if I am dedicating slots in my board to "combo," Flusterstorm is my go to.

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Alright, I can see Flusterstorm being a good argument for sure. But if the Omnitell player has Cunning Wish they can go get their own Flusterstorm. I really think the best form of hate against combo is permanent based hate. I actually enjoy playing blue decks over anything else. I absolutely hate playing Maverick / Junk decks game 2-3 because of the variety of hatebears they can bring in.

Discard and counterspells are a 1 for 1, if a slow-clock is applied, the combo player can rebuild quite quickly with a plan "B" combo or digging with many cantrips. Hatebears stop them cold from combo-ing if used correctly. Making them have that 1-2 card answer in their sideboard. If they don't have it, or you counter it, you win.. It's that simple. You don't really want to be playing a reactive game against a proactive combo deck in my opinion. Discard is proactive but unreliable due to Leyline. Hatebears provide a small clock and pretty much turns proactive side right back to you, where they have to react to your field. I'm not sure if 100% of that made sense, but I am absolutely devastated by an Ethersworn Canoist / Medding Mage / Thalia / Teeg, I don't want to even think about multiples.

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Anyone have any experience with a Blade list like this

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I played several lists quite like that. I even tried Ancestral Vision. They all felt worse than being able to cast Dark Confidant.

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Flusterstorm is ironically marginal against storm because they generally either strip it from your hand before going off or silence you (depending on the storm variant). One way or another, it's rare to actually be able to fluster their tendrils, usually because the storm player punted.

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This is riduclous. It's Spell Pierce vs Silence, and generally Force of Will for U against Ad Nauseam / Rest in Peace / Tutor / Wish. It does work against nearly every card in a Show and Tell player's deck.

My advice would be to use your cheap counters more aggressively against combo decks.

Hatebears are good, I'm not denying that, especially if they are Ethersworn Canonist or Thalia. However, hatebears are pretty miserable against Show and Tell. Teeg and Meddling Mage don't stop them, Thalia can be played around, and Canonist--while good--really only shines against the Omnishow lists. None of that makes them bad, however; in my mind, what makes them bad is the fact that S&T plays Force of Will. Non-blue decks have no choice but to just run them out there, but for blue decks, if it gets countered, the game is over because you don't have the mana to fight over the stack.

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Alright, I can see Flusterstorm being a good argument for sure. But if the Omnitell player has Cunning Wish they can go get their own Flusterstorm.

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They can, but they'd have to get it before I cast my Flusterstorm, so they've already spent a turn wishing. Not sure if you're implying this or not, but don't wait for you S&T player to put an Omni into play before you try to stop them.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

This is riduclous. *It's Spell Pierce vs Silence, and generally Force of Will for U against Ad Nauseam / Rest in Peace / Tutor / Wish. * It does work against nearly every card in a Show and Tell player's deck.*

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Malakai, you may want to reread Flusterstorm. It cannot counter Rest in Peace (legally.)

I played storm for years, literally. TES, FT, FDDT, late IGGY Pop and other varients (Spring Tide). Don't Flusterstorm their Tendrils. Hit their Enabler/Tutor. It's the best plan, especially since that's when they will most likely pop LED in response without passing priority. I use Stifles as well as Flusterstorms. It's pretty good. I attack their fetches with my Wastes and Stifles, it really hurts them. Stifle hits the Storm Trigger as we all know, but also helps in the S&T matchup. Stops a Sneak Attack activation, stops Annihilator, the Extra Turn if relevant, BOTH Top abilities, can foil CB flips, Demon activations (I hear paying 7 life to do nothing is horrible); good against Equipment lists (Stoneforge Mirror), Stoneforge itself on both counts, Planeswalker and DRS Activations, Wasteland and so, so much more it's good against I don't know why it's not played more often within this particular archetype. I haven't ever posted my list, and because of my...Underdeveloped Legacy Scene, my build is different than most of yours. Let me show you:

LAND-21
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp

CREATURES-13
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

SPELLS-26
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD-15
4 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
*1 Rest in Peace (flex slot)
*1 Enlightened Tutor (flex slot)
1 Stifle

My sideboard is a bit weird, and I know a lot of you won't appreciate the Sided Forces. I play against a large amount of fair lists, and Daze actually does better game 1 within my meta. I side in Forces against the Stax and Stompy matchup I see here as well as the Ichorid, but I don't face control here at all. My list would be more standard than this if I were to go to a tourney, but as it stands, does anyone have any advice/changes/whatever for my list? I have been having major success with it at least in my tri-state region.

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

3 Stifle
3 Daze

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I am pretty sure that a list that contains those cards together does not count as a Control-deck. This is more of a tempo-esperlist.

Wow, thank you for your input. Can i get some freakin' USEFUL discussion here?

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Wow, thank you for your input. Can i get some freakin' USEFUL discussion here?

-ABC

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This deck is looking to go for the long game. While Daze and Stifle are great in the first couple turns, we're looking to go several turns beyond that, where they're not so useful. What does Daze hit when they have 4+ mana sources on board? What do you Stifle? A Jacestorm? Their fourth fetch?

With a decklist like this, you might be better off checking out the UW Tempo thread.

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Originally Posted by thecrav

With a decklist like this, you might be better off checking out the UW Tempo thread.

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You just sent him to the place were brain cells go to die. The Las Vegas of The Source, if you will.

Question: How do we beat (MD at least) Punishing Fire? My question applies to the card in general, but most notably Jund since that's where it sees the most play. I mean, besides from overloading on Geists or somehow* managing to defend an early Germ, it seems to me that we get grossly overpowered by the card...

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

You just sent him to the place were brain cells go to die. The Las Vegas of The Source, if you will.

Question: How do we beat (MD at least) Punishing Fire? My question applies to the card in general, but most notably Jund since that's where it sees the most play. I mean, besides from overloading on Geists or somehow* managing to defend an early Germ, it seems to me that we get grossly overpowered by the card...

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First, yes he did, and it is, and they did. They are still advocating the use of Delver, and imho that card, while *decent*, is too slow b/c of it's need to flip before being a threat, and is simply outclassed by Strix. My build has tempo build cards in it but plays like a control list. Honestly, just up this page of this thread someone said they wanted to "jam" 2 wastelands in their list. I did this, liked it, tested and changed my list until this is what it looks like. I assure you in most matches it fills the control role well. If you tossed Daze and added FoW to the MD, I hardly think that this list plays much different than more traditional lists. See, from the beginning of Blade Control, it's been a tempo-control build whether you want to admit it or not. It has changed some, but not enough to exclude a list such as mine from the discussion simply because of a couple of card choices that don't feel "controlling" enough for you.

By the way, this list can and does wreck entire mana-bases via throwing wasteland at a fetch, stifling said fetch when they pop in response, and then Surgical Extractioning the fetch. Love the synergies, not to mention Wasteland is a card that you should have a good reason NOT to run these days. Stifle which has always been since it's inception into the game, a rediculously versatile and cheap answer to so much. Then, there's the Surgicals, which are yard hate, free, and also wonderfully versatile (Beats Punishing Fire, BTW :wink: ).

Anyway, I guess I'm happy enough with my build. I don't need help. This thread, that thread, it's all a bunch of nonsense that in the end doesn't really matter anyway. See ya in the Miracle Control Thread (the Real Control Thread). Can't wait for the next big Tournament in Denver.

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

First, yes he did, and it is, and they did. They are still advocating the use of Delver, and imho that card, while *decent*, is too slow b/c of it's need to flip before being a threat, and is simply outclassed by Strix. My build has tempo build cards in it but plays like a control list. Honestly, just up this page of this thread someone said they wanted to "jam" 2 wastelands in their list. I did this, liked it, tested and changed my list until this is what it looks like. I assure you in most matches it fills the control role well. If you tossed Daze and added FoW to the MD, I hardly think that this list plays much different than more traditional lists. See, from the beginning of Blade Control, it's been a tempo-control build whether you want to admit it or not. It has changed some, but not enough to exclude a list such as mine from the discussion simply because of a couple of card choices that don't feel "controlling" enough for you.

By the way, this list can and does wreck entire mana-bases via throwing wasteland at a fetch, stifling said fetch when they pop in response, and then Surgical Extractioning the fetch. Love the synergies, not to mention Wasteland is a card that you should have a good reason NOT to run these days. Stifle which has always been since it's inception into the game, a rediculously versatile and cheap answer to so much. Then, there's the Surgicals, which are yard hate, free, and also wonderfully versatile (Beats Punishing Fire, BTW :wink: ).

Anyway, I guess I'm happy enough with my build. I don't need help. This thread, that thread, it's all a bunch of nonsense that in the end doesn't really matter anyway. See ya in the Miracle Control Thread (the Real Control Thread). Can't wait for the next big Tournament in Denver.

-ABC

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thing is that your list is stoneblade with some tempo elements. You want to destroy the opponent's manabase which tempo decks do outright better. To achieve this you include cards that are good early game but are bad for later game control. Daze doesn't seem good in this deck because it puts you back a landdrop while you want to get to jace as fast as possible.

If you want to deny people's resources, why don't you just play RUG or BUG tempo? it's the best deck for doing that. With your list you just don't have the pressure to make the denial relevant against most decks. So many decks in legacy can operate off 2-3 lands. If you want to deny them and then go into late game to draw more disruption which isn't relevant anymore that just seems bad to me.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

First, yes he did, and it is, and they did. They are still advocating the use of Delver, and imho that card, while *decent*, is too slow b/c of it's need to flip before being a threat, and is simply outclassed by Strix. My build has tempo build cards in it but plays like a control list. Honestly, just up this page of this thread someone said they wanted to "jam" 2 wastelands in their list. I did this, liked it, tested and changed my list until this is what it not ks like. I assure you in most matches it fills the control role well. If you tossed Daze and added FoW to the MD, I hardly think that this list plays much different than more traditional lists. See, from the beginning of Blade Control, it's been a tempo-control build whether you want to admit it or not. It has changed some, but not enough to exclude a list such as mine from the discussion simply because of a couple of card choices that don't feel "controlling" enough for you.

By the way, this list can and does wreck entire mana-bases via throwing wasteland at a fetch, stifling said fetch when they pop in response, and then Surgical Extractioning the fetch. Love the synergies, not to mention Wasteland is a card that you should have a good reason NOT to run these days. Stifle which has always been since it's inception into the game, a rediculously versatile and cheap answer to so much. Then, there's the Surgicals, which are yard hate, free, and also wonderfully versatile (Beats Punishing Fire, BTW :wink: ).

Anyway, I guess I'm happy enough with my build. I don't need help. This thread, that thread, it's all a bunch of nonsense that in the end doesn't really matter anyway. See ya in the Miracle Control Thread (the Real Control Thread). Can't wait for the next big Tournament in Denver.

-ABC

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So you did not want input but a pat on the back and off to the races with the rest of the numbnuts on the SCG circuit. Gl hf

Why is Deathblade rating Dark Confidant higher than his blue counterparts? (Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage) Since when is Black better than Blue?!

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Originally Posted by useL

So you did not want input but a pat on the back and off to the races with the rest of the numbnuts on the SCG circuit. Gl hf

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No, I wanted assistance, its just that a statement "x and y aren't control cards" doesn't seem useful. If you can construe it otherwise, props. Getting shipped off to another thread just because of those cards is even more rediculous. Seems it's all about which thread is which, not about how a list plays but rather how it is perceived, not the card choices for choice reasons, but card choices to separate lists into threads based on how it is perceived. That's why I don't want help. I'm going back to silence, at least on The Source. 100+ posts in and the only truly helpful person has been Drza, but that was in the Miracle Thread and a PM conversation. I wanted suggestions for my particular build, which has been created for my particular metagame. Jesus Tits.

Playing Strix over Delver is a huge reason to post here rather than there, referring back to the UW "Vegas Tempo" thread now. I hate Delver -THAT is a tempo card...

-ABC

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Originally Posted by sauce

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Originally Posted by Malakai

This is riduclous. It's Spell Pierce vs Silence, and generally Force of Will for U against Ad Nauseam / Rest in Peace / Tutor / Wish. It does work against nearly every card in a Show and Tell player's deck.

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Malakai, you may want to reread Flusterstorm. It cannot counter Rest in Peace (legally.)

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Based on context I assume Malakai mistyped and was referring to Past In Flames, you know... the other win condition of the deck being discussed.

Call me old fashioned but I still prefer playing the old stoneblade list instead of deathblade. Find it more stable mana-wise and a higher % win against combo. However my meta recently showed a lot of Canadian threshold and Jund. Both matchups are tough. Any inputs on how to shore up wins against those decks?

PS. I am using vidi's list.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...6&iddeck=78381

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

No, I wanted assistance, its just that a statement "x and y aren't control cards" doesn't seem useful. If you can construe it otherwise, props. Getting shipped off to another thread just because of those cards is even more rediculous. Seems it's all about which thread is which, not about how a list plays but rather how it is perceived, not the card choices for choice reasons, but card choices to separate lists into threads based on how it is perceived. That's why I don't want help. I'm going back to silence, at least on The Source. 100+ posts in and the only truly helpful person has been Drza, but that was in the Miracle Thread and a PM conversation. I wanted suggestions for my particular build, which has been created for my particular metagame. Jesus Tits.

Playing Strix over Delver is a huge reason to post here rather than there, referring back to the UW "Vegas Tempo" thread now. I hate Delver -THAT is a tempo card...

-ABC

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I told you why daze and stifle aren't good in stoneblade and why we aren't playing them. Those cards fit a completely different gameplan and that is what people meant with "these aren't control cards". They don't fit a control plan cause they get worse as the game goes on and try to achieve something completely different than what stoneblade wants to achieve. Daze is horrid in this deck. It's a tempo play but in this deck you lose too much tempo yourself. You stop their turn 2 play to stop yourself from playing geist on turn 3 or you stop yourself from being able to cast a jace. That is just bad. Stifle doesn't do enough, especially lategame except if you manage to stop a storm trigger or a jace. You mix agressive cards like geist stifle and daze with slower cntrol cards like jace and strix, that just makes little sense. I know dazing and stifling is awesome, and vindicating someone's basic land after that is even better but that doesn't mean it is good in this particular deck. You put yorself back a turn and you waste your cards on resources they will regain anyway by the time you can win.

Like i also said before, RUG's disruption in daze and stifle are good because they can operate on a very low land count and they have the necessary pressure to make their disruption relevant. If you plan on taking out the opponent's lands and then wait till you can ultimate jace your disruption is wasted. The only card in your list that can pressure the opponent is geist. besides him you have strix who just sits there till what, your opponent has come back up to par with you ? If you want to incorporate such cards, lower your curve, play more agressive cards like dark confidant, deathrite shaman,delver. Or play another deck altogether because at that point you aren't even close to stoneblade anymore.

cheers

The best way to beat Punishing Jund is to have access to a combinaison of Rest in Peace, 2 drops (to avoid Liliana) in form of SFM or Strix and the end game boss Geist of Saint Traft.

Unfortunately, if you are playing the new version with Deathrite Shaman, you can't side in Rest in Peace so it's pretty hard to remove Punishing fire from the game but you should still be playing Relic or Spellbomb which are sometimes enough and a necessity against Life from the Loam). Moreover, the good point is that you are playing 2 or 3 Wasteland that you should keep to destroy Grove of Burnwillows.

Other cards like Restoration Angel (which is awesome with SFM, Strix, Snap and Clique) or Elsepth, Knight Errant are also very good in this matchup.

Overloading on spot removals is also very good here with Abrupt Decay being particularly good as it can take care of Sylvan Library, Chain of Mephistopheles, Lilianas and all cratures except BBE.

Still, it's a very tight matchup, very based on how players curve out.

Hope this will help you to beat those pesky Jund players more easily.

So I am interested in the idea of incorporating Wastelands into traditional Esper lists. I realize that you want to hit most of your land drops, but I think Wasteland will give us an edge against decks with greedy manabases/Punishing Jund. Maybe I just like the idea of fighting fire with fire. So the obvious swap is Academy Ruins, then I feel like you cut a spell for the 23rd land. Probably one of the singletons and I guess that just depends on your meta. I kind of want to run 3 copies of Wasteland but I feel like it would diverge too much from control.

The other thing is that Lingering Souls has become worse with the prevalence of DRS. I feel like swapping a Souls for a second Clique would be good. Geist isn't my thing.

This is my list:

Lands [23]
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Creatures [9]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants [14]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

Sorceries [8]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Disenchant
1 Darkblast
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Perish

Swapping a Souls for a 2nd Clique seems like a decent change. Although I like Geist in the combo matchups, I've actually found Clique to be a bit better (Clique in response to their combo-turn Silence/Duress and snatching their Tutor is pretty nice). Also, increasing your maindeck blue count is always a good thing to support that 4th FoW out of the board. I think I may make that change too.

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Originally Posted by apistat_commander

So I am interested in the idea of incorporating Wastelands into traditional Esper lists. I realize that you want to hit most of your land drops, but I think Wasteland will give us an edge against decks with greedy manabases/Punishing Jund. Maybe I just like the idea of fighting fire with fire. So the obvious swap is Academy Ruins, then I feel like you cut a spell for the 23rd land. Probably one of the singletons and I guess that just depends on your meta. I kind of want to run 3 copies of Wasteland but I feel like it would diverge too much from control.

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You could always use Dustbowl. Granted, it's mana intensive and off line until Turn 4, but it makes use of additional lands in the late game. I wouldn't necessarily use it to remove Grove, but I would to remove Karakas.

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Originally Posted by sauce

Malakai, you may want to reread Flusterstorm. It cannot counter Rest in Peace (legally.)

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I meant Past in Flames, sorry.

(Also thanks _ from Cairo)

While I agree with what people are saying about Stifle and Daze in Stoneblade, the argument that they're bad because they're not good lategame looks a bit silly next to a suite of discard spells, which also tend to be blank cards when the opponent is in topdeck mode.

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

You could always use Dustbowl. Granted, it's mana intensive and off line until Turn 4, but it makes use of additional lands in the late game. I wouldn't necessarily use it to remove Grove, but I would to remove Karakas.

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I have played Wasteland in *blade lists. It's fine, but you must never, ever try to mana screw them with it. Ever. It's great if you use it only for removal of utility lands you can't beat (Grove, EE+Academy Ruins, Maze of Ith is annoying, Tower of the Magistrate too, manlands). The main consideration for me was beating Punishing Fire decks.

[Okay, I might consider wasting them on turn 2 if I'm on the play, have a Deathrite, and am playing Dark Confidant that turn.]

Does anybody else feel like DeathBlade and EsperBlade are separate enough decks that they should have separate threads?

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Does anybody else feel like DeathBlade and EsperBlade are separate enough decks that they should have separate threads?

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Yes, they are very different both in playstyle and list.

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Does anybody else feel like DeathBlade and EsperBlade are separate enough decks that they should have separate threads?

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Originally Posted by useL

Yes, they are very different both in playstyle and list.

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I agree that Deathblade and Esper Stoneblade are different enough to deserve separate threads. Has anyone written a primer/started a thread for Deathblade? I would be game to write/start one but figured that I should check. As a player of both decks, I think that the site should have a thread for each!

I agree Deathblade is a different archetype

What do people think of THIS hybrid list. It's just stock stoneblade with 2 wastelands and a playset of deathrites. You remove all the clunky one of's like E.E, vindicate and verdict and add in shamans. They seem like a good addition in the stock shell. They accelerate the deck by a turn, fix our fragile manabase and give you incredible grinding power alongside lingering souls.
I have always liked the idea of deathrite shaman in esper stoneblade but i strongly dislike the deathblade lists. They aren't that succesful here in Europe and those lists just look so greedy. Especially the latest lists with geist and abrupt decay seem overly greedy and clunky besides having a bad combo matchup game 1. My testing results with the deck have been worse than with the traditional esperblade lists too.

I still have to test this but what are your thoughts on deathrite shaman in a traditional esperblade shell?

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

What do people think of THIS hybrid list. It's just stock stoneblade with 2 wastelands and a playset of deathrites. You remove all the clunky one of's like E.E, vindicate and verdict and add in shamans. They seem like a good addition in the stock shell. They accelerate the deck by a turn, fix our fragile manabase and give you incredible grinding power alongside lingering souls.
I have always liked the idea of deathrite shaman in esper stoneblade but i strongly dislike the deathblade lists. They aren't that succesful here in Europe and those lists just look so greedy. Especially the latest lists with geist and abrupt decay seem overly greedy and clunky besides having a bad combo matchup game 1. My testing results with the deck have been worse than with the traditional esperblade lists too.

I still have to test this but what are your thoughts on deathrite shaman in a traditional esperblade shell?

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I like it. We could use that. Should we still splash a Tropical though? Life is sparse nowadays.

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Originally Posted by useL

I like it. We could use that. Should we still splash a Tropical though? Life is sparse nowadays.

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The list in question is splashing a tropical, so I guess there you go. I like that list too, however, it is me or does it seem a bit weak to combo, even affter side?
I was thinking about testing something like this :


Lands [23]
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 academy ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 tropical island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Creatures [12]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 deathrite shaman
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants [12]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell

Sorceries [6]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls OR 2 baleful strix

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vindicate
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Meddling Mage
1 venser
2 spell pierce
1 inquisition of kosilek

As you can see, I have also been a bit conflicted about lingering souls vs baleful strix, that I have been using these last weeks. I love the fact that they seem to do everything I want : killing goylf, drawing cards, being ridiculous with academy ruins. My current list looks like this :


Lands [23]
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 academy ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Creatures [11]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 baleful strix
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants [14]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 spell pierce
1 Counterspell

Sorceries [6]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 vandicate
1 ponder

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
2 extirpate
1 zealous persecution
1 Perish
1 Supreme Verdict
1 relic of progenitus
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Meddling Mage
1 venser
2 geist of saint traft
1 inquisition of kosilek

thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Malakai

I meant Past in Flames, sorry.

(Also thanks _ from Cairo)

While I agree with what people are saying about Stifle and Daze in Stoneblade, the argument that they're bad because they're not good lategame looks a bit silly next to a suite of discard spells, which also tend to be blank cards when the opponent is in topdeck mode.

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Well, these discard spells are indeed bad late game. That's why we don't want more cards that are dead late game. Daze and stifle don't go with our gameplan AND and to a problem we already have. Which is why i like ponder or top so much in this deck. We need some kind of quality filter late game to stop floods of dead cards. Flooding on land+ discard/spell pierces has cost me more than one game.

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I like it. We could use that. Should we still splash a Tropical though? Life is sparse nowadays.

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I'd splash the tropical. The one extra nonbasic land will rarely be a problem and being able to gain life paired with the defense of souls can buy you back into the game against decks like RUG or Jund when the pressure is high. Getting out of bolt range is also pretty nifty.

I'm still working on a list. Since i will be facing combo at my LGS, i really want to keep some extra permission maindeck. Problem is, i haven't been too happy with spell pierce in general maindeck. More often than not they have been blanks for me. Due to the combo i will face, i also don't want to lower my blue card count any further.
I still need to test it with the deathrites though. The argument i can find against deathrite shaman is that it lowers our blue card count and isn't an answer to anything in any particular situation. It's a more proactive card. It's nice to have mana acceleration and fixing and it's nice to grind out your opponent but when you are behind, you are not too happy to draw deathrites, spell pierces and discard spells...

EDIT: Also, have any of you tested against mono U Omnishow? What's the matchup like and what did you find were the best options to combat it?

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

EDIT: Also, have any of you tested against mono U Omnishow? What's the matchup like and what did you find were the best options to combat it?

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i've tested some against it. Pre side went well when I had discard spell. vendilion clique has been key, along with snapcaster on thoughseize/inquisition and such. Post side is much harder (like, really really hard) if they have leyline of sanctity on turn 0, as beside some hate bears and spell pierce/force, the main way to win against them stays making them discard their hand. but then again, i've played twice against it in yesterday tournament, and both games when 2-0 for me, and with the first of those rounds going textbook for me.

Basically, on the draw, inquisitioned on turn one for his cunning wish, turn 3 snapcaster inquisition for his show and tell, turn 4 clique with fow to make it stick, taking his last piece of combo, and beating him to death. game two he kept a really good hand going off on turn 3 with force and pact backup, but no leyline, and decides to not throw away the hand for that, telling himself that worst case he had brainstorm to hide pieces just in case. it then all went to hell after the turn 1 deathrite. on turn 2, I inquisition him, he brainstorms in response, but I counterspell his brainstorm with deathrite's help. He lets it resolve and I take a combo piece. the turn after, i inquisition him again, but this time he FoWs it, not wanting to lose another piece. I just play a thoughtseize right after leaving him with 2 cards, and lay down a stoneforge searching for SoFaF. next turn I get him hellbent with another discard spell and connecting with sword. Deathrite made a huge difference this game, with the extra mana.

next round, game one goes like above, and game two i beat him with leyline in play, but that never happens usually. i pretty much had all my permission this game, and succeeded in extirpating his show and tells, then landing a meddling mage on cunning wish. Game ends when he tries to go for dream halls, counter it and extirpate it too.

So yeah, discard is key in the matchup, and permanent based hate and some ammount of counters is important game 2-3, as leyline is really hard to beat. I survived my 2 omnitell rounds this time (losing to hive mind, however), but if I had known that many omnitell would be in this tournament, i would probably have added some more hate against them in sideboard. Something like arcane laboratory or ethersworn canonist

Why did the 3rd place list from SCG Worcester yesterday splash red for 2 maindeck Izzet charms? Seems like a weak splash that ruins the mana. I get that he has Pyroblasts in the sb, but why play Izzet charms main?

U/W/R Stoneblade
A Legacy Magic deck, by Jared Boettcher
3rd place at a tournament in Worcester, Massachusetts, United States on 2013-07-07
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...worcester.html

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Izzet Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
2 Supreme Verdict

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Plains

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Celestial Purge
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction

He was probably analyzing the slots, and he wanted both a blue card and a removal spell. He ended up choosing REB + Izzet Charm over Baleful Strix.

REB is amazing, people. It's a sideboard 1cc instant that is amazing against both control and combo. He should've played 3 in the board.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

REB is amazing, people. It's a sideboard 1cc instant that is amazing against both control and combo. He should've played 3 in the board.

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Finally someone gets it.

They'll get it in a few days.

So what changes are people making with the Legend and Planeswalker changes?

I am thinking 2-3 Vendilion Clique might be in order as it has flash and can attack Jace along with gives you information and possibly disrupts the opponent. The disadvantage that they are Legendary is less of an issue since you can play the second and get the effect and still keep it in play. Will cut some number of Snapcaster Mage for the additional Cliques.

Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere might be an option as well. Detention Sphere can be pitched to force but also gets hit by Red blast.

Restoration Angel also seems like it might be worth trying as well but it costs 4.

Without Moxes and Cavern of Souls I'm not sure Notion Theif is worth the slot in the board as your might not have 4 untapped when your opponent plays or uses Jace. Notion Theif can be a total blow out if it resolves but I haven't gotten to play my Notion Theif very often in Legacy. I used it more in Vintage.

Red splash is sounding good for Red blasts but I firmly like the Black Splash for Dark Confidant.


@learntolove6
Dunno about wastelands. Rest in Peace is great vs Punshing Jund. Dark Confidant helps you keep up cardwise with Shardless BUG. Wastelands are good if you are on Deathrite Shaman though.

@Iron Buddha
Dark Confidant is better then Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage because it generates card advantage over time.

@mike1987
Rest in peace is pretty good versus both canadian thresh and Jund. Neuters Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose.


@AEnesidem
My big issue with Shaman is it precludes using Rest in Peace which is so good against many decks. Removing Engineered Explosives sounds wrong. I like having Engineered Explosives so much versus aggro and as an out vs counter balance. Deathrites also require running a Tropical Island which hurts the mana base. I like having my 2 Island, 1 Swamp 1 Plains so I can play pretty much everything in my deck other then Supreme Verdict and Elspeth without worrying about wasteland. I prefer Dark Confidant to Deathrite Shaman.

Sideboarded Flusterstorms + Meddling Mage are probably your best bet vs omni tell that are still good in other match ups. Discard is unreliable because of their Leyline of Sanctity but is good if they don't have Leyline so wouldn't board out discard. I been testing Omni Tell and the Omni Tell versus Reanimator match up is so bad.

@Thediscopower
Baleful Strix is looking to be a nice option instead of Lingering Souls with more Deathrite Shaman being played and it helps your blue count for Force of Will. Ability to be recurred with Academy Ruins is good but doesn't happen to often. Lingering Souls does a better job at killing opposing Jace and Liliana. I do board Rest in Peace which makes Baleful Strix seem like an even better option. I will have to test Baleful Strix in the Lingering Souls slot.

@sauce
Red splash is pretty good especially with the change allowing both players to have Jace. REB kills Jace pretty well. Izzet Charm actually is quite good. It kills Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and Deathrite Shaman while being good against combo.

Landing jace is now less of a blowout. The changes to V.Clique and other random Legendary creatures don't matter. However, Jitte can shutdown this entire deck, and without the ability to just tutor up our own that card could be a problem. I may be finding space for a Disenchant (more likely a Wear//Tear) in the maindeck.


The key difference between Vintage and Legacy is that in Legacy, drawing more cards does not automatically mean you will win the game.