im interested in seeing a list with that split. no goose?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
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im interested in seeing a list with that split. no goose?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
I played a stock list with the following changes:
-4 Goose +2 Mandrills +1 TNN +1 Clique
Flex slots: 2 Dismember, 1 forked bolt, 1 chain lightning, 2 spell pierce
Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Harsh Mentor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Standstill
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pithing Needle
I agree that Goose is in a tough spot right now but I didn't play against any DRS decks to really see if my build was good. I tilted toward more removal, there's a decent amount of combo locally but force+daze+stifle+pierce is still a lot in game 1.
1-2 Show & Tell (I couldn't flip a delver to go with my Mandrills when he was at 3 life with an Emrakul. I stifled the annihilator trigger to go to 1 and get him on crackback, but he had dispel.)
2-1 D&T (game 1 was a predictable disaster, game 2 I got jitte on clique when he had RIP out vs. my goyf, game 3 i ripped sulfur elemental off the top when i was about to die to several flickerwisps)
2-0 BR reanimator (game 1 I had force game 2 he mulled to 4 and I had wasteland + stifle)
2-1 Big Red (game 1 I had force, game 2 he got chalice into chandra, game 3 he drew a lot of lock pieces and no action and Goyf went the distance)
Didn't get a chance to stick a Mentor, I brought it in for D&T but he never surfaced. Probably could be Lavamancer and just as good. But again, didn't play a lot of fair decks so not sure what to expect yet. I really have trouble deciding on Clique or TNN, I feel like I always want to play at instant speed with this deck but TNN just ends the game if you can stick one.
Still trying to figure it out, not sure where to take that list. Ironically, I did record a league with Mongoose/Mandrills today:Quote:
Originally Posted by gotchadanno
//Creature
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Nimble Mongoose
//Instant
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
//Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
//Sorcery
2 Chain Lightning
2 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Destructive Revelry
SB: 2 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 1 Barbarian Ring
SB: 2 Gemstone Caverns
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
While recording, an interesting scenario came up that I unfortunately failed to identify as interesting, so I'm gonna share it here:
https://scontent.ftxl1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...0a&oe=597A568B
What's the play?
That's a toughy, knowing the decklist. If he was Goyf, it's counter it, drop a goyf. At 4/4 the mandrils are too small to survive a double block, meaning that even if he sac'd his goose (why would he?) the best you could do is trade boardstates.
Him being on 1-land seems good though. You're still stuck until you get another dude but at least he's potentially locked and is lacking whatever card was in his hand. Also, given his board state, he's casting a CDA spell; may let him have it and hope it locks him. (He loses Smallpox, dude, land, card, you lose card, dude land, and the card you lose is the one you would use anyway.)
The only thing about letting it resolve is that you're stuck taking another hit of 4 life, putting you at 5; meaning if you don't find a second dude before he does, you lose for sure.
When I first saw this, I would snap play spell snare, but I didn't consider him losing a card in hand and a land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
After thinking through this more, I would still counter with SpellSnare it as it seems like you want as many creatures as possible. Trading mongoose for Zombie isn't good.
It would be a more interesting if the pox enabled you to cast the Mandrills....tougher situation.
I'd bet this involve drawing into Tabernacle. Leaving your opponent with 1 mana and a choice to be made at his next upkeep to deal with your mandrill.
Okay, first off, all my matches with Jonadian have been uploaded to YouTube now: #thedailywars #23-27 Complete Jonadian Threshold League Playlist
As for the scenario I posted above, I think I'm going to discuss it in full detail alongside some other scenarios on my blog, but for now let me just say that I think it would have been correct to let Smallpox resolve and discard Spell Snare to it, as bad as that seems at first glance. You're trading the Snare for Smallpox anyway and with the stalled board, it's pretty much like you're trading Mongoose for one of their Zombies as well. You would gladly trade one of your Volcanics for one of their lands and at that point I think 5 life is a reasonable price to pay for their last card in hand. In short, I think Smallpox is an unfavourable trade for the Reanimator player in this instance.
So with miracles back in the mix, and the format not looking as deathrite saturated as I had previously predicted, I am interested in sleeving up canadian again. Some things that I have experienced in deckbuilding:
1) I hate playing more than 6 removal spells main, but obviously deathrite NEEDS to die
2) I am super interested in having access to rough//tumble atm
3) I like having access to diverse threats, much like grixis delver
4) I don't think spell snare is all that important right now. It is not good against one of the premier combo decks of the format, is really poor against the premier delver deck and we don't have cb to worry about anymore.
Tonight I tried this out:
MD
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
1 Life from the Loam
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
SB
1 Nimble Mongoose
1 True Name Nemesis
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Rough//Tumble
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Snare
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
The major change here is the creature mix and the presence of 2 preordains in the maindeck.
I could never really find a mix of creatures/removal/counterspells I loved so I figured I would just try jamming more cantrips. I was impressed overall with the preordains tonight. The increased ability to find the cards you need makes up for having less individual copies of each card, and also lets us free the goose earlier. It also makes your sideboard a decent amount better if you can manage to keep the preordains in. I built the sideboard in 5 minutes but I am certain I want the 3 copies of rough tumble and the spread of creatures in the side. I ended up doing a lot of tweaking post board, and ended up using every sideboarded creature at least once. Also, there's a lot of reanimator in my meta, so 3 surgicals is likely overkill in general.
Am I crazy? Has anyone tried anything along these lines recently? Let me know what you all think.
Hey all, checking in with another 3-0 weekly with my preordain list. I played this tonight:
MD
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
SB
1 Nimble Mongoose
1 True Name Nemesis
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Rough//Tumble
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
Played against grixis delver (therapy), elves and burn, going 6-0 in games. Preordain (and the mixed bag of creatures in the sideboard) continued to overperform in the list. This week the tension between preordain/ponder+brainstorm and fetchlands came up a little more, but not to a point where it really affected my games greatly. This is my second 3-0 in a row with the list, and although both were just weeklies, the decks were all at least tiered decks.
Congrats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raticate_Tail
Can I ask for more details about the burn match?
i would be interested in your Boardingplans especially how you switch your creature suit in the different matchups :) the list look really nice !
G1 I'm on the play. Hand is 3 lands, 2 goyfs, delver and a daze. Very good hand in the mu. Delver go, let swiftspear resolve, jam a goyf, daze eidolon, jam another goyf. Game is over from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by jattra
Sided like this: -2 dismember, -1 true name, -2 stifle, -2 wasteland, +1 flusterstorm, +1 sylvan library, +2 rough//tumble, +1 destructive revelry, +1 tarmogoyf, +1 nimble mongoose.
Wasteland and stifle have their merits individually. Sometimes you get to stifle fetchlands or barb ring, wasteland casts goyf, kills barb ring and gives you p.o.p. insurance. I chose to split them. Dismember and true name are just horrible. As far as rough//tumble is concerned, I usually don't like 2 mana removal in the matchup, but I don't think playing literally just the four bolts is good enough. I also saw multiple grim lavamancers game one.
G2 I remember keeping a 6 of goyf, preordain, volc, waste, rough//tumble and a brainstorm. The plan here is to find a green source and jam a goyf. From there, if our opponent has a creature heavy hand we easily win, and if he has a burn heavy hand we have to draw well. I remember brainstorming to draw a card off of goblin guide, finding a green source in the process. Goyf was played and rough//tumble swept up a swiftspear and a guide. I end up drawing into another goyf, counterspells and cantrips to find more counterspells. I ended up using wasteland to tap for mana twice this game for the record.
How easy the matchup is depends on how many goyfs you play. I happened to draw the few that I was playing quite frequently.
In general I like them in the following matchups:Quote:
Originally Posted by blablub
Nimble Mongoose: Grixis delver, Death and Taxes, UR delver, Infect, Burn, Jeskai delver, Miracles, Stoneblade, Loam, S&S, Reanimator
Tarmogoyf: Grixis delver, UR delver, Eldrazi, Burn, Stompy, Storm, Elves
True Name: Death and Taxes, Eldrazi, Stompy, 3/4 color goodstuff, Stoneblade, Loam, Lands
If there is a matchup you would be interested in sideboarding for specifically let me know. I'm a little too lazy to do a full
on sideboarding guide right now. The sideboard is in constant flux anyways.
Nice, thx.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raticate_Tail
I switched from goyfs to monkeys and it is quite an issue against burn. I am often forced to bolt/counter their creatures first three turns to survive until a blocker finally comes down.
I wanted to get everyone's take on Andrea Mengucci's Channel Fireball video here:
https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...ian-threshold/
He plays a pretty "stock list" or something that saw play in 2010-2012...made some playmistakes and interesting lines, but I was impressed with how well nimble mongoose held up.
Here's the list:
Lands
2 x Flooded Strand
2 x Polluted Delta
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Volcanic Island
4 x Wasteland
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
Creatures
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Nimble Mongoose
4 x Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration
Spells
4 x Stifle
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Force of Will
2 x Forked Bolt
4 x Daze
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Spell Snare
Sideboard
2 x Ancient Grudge
2 x Grafdigger's Cage
2 x Dismember
2 x Red Elemental Blast
2 x Submerge
1 x Pyroblast
1 x Null Rod
1 x Flusterstorm
2 x Rough // Tumble
I still think mongoose is not needed in this post-top Miracles meta...but would love to get other's thoughts on this...especially JONATHAN ALEXANDER
At first I thought you still wanted to have Mongoose, then my impression was that it was worse than Mandrills, then Miracles came back and I wanted to go Jonadian again... What's probably correct is to have access to Mongoose, but likely it shouldn't be main. I think we should look at something similar to what I was playing last year, with the 13 creatures total setup. I really liked being able to switch between threats; you almost never want more than 10 in any matchup anyway. If we play something like 4 Delver 4 Mongoose 3 Mandrills 2 True-Name, we can potentially still play Pyroclasm as well. Not sure if that is the correct configuration, but for each creature, there are matchups where it's pretty bad in and always having the best ones was a big draw to that list.
I think what you first want to figure out is the Grixis Delver matchup; I'm not super sold on boarding out Delver against them, but I haven't really gotten to play the matchup with the Mandrills + Mongoose + Pyroclasm setup; maybe that's worth it.
I heavily dislike playing against Swords to Plowshares (especially in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage) without Nimble Mongoose in my deck. It may actually be worse than Mandrills vs. D&T, especially if you run Delver anyway.
I'm also fairly sure you want some number of True-Names somewhere. The card steals an unreasonable number of games vs. midrange decks.
Mandrills is by far the best creature in combo matchups (it's generally the fastest clock and doesn't get killed which is great, what with Sneak & Show boarding stuff like Grim Lavamancer and Pyroclasm, while Storm also has Pyroclasm and Fatal Push). Mandrills are also great against all the Abrupt Decay decks; making them rely on clunky removal like Liliana, Deluge and Diabolic Edict is great, especially considering they don't run many copies of those generally.
Delver may very well be the weak link, but it does come with some number of free wins, which is great. It makes matchups like Maverick and D&T much better and Delver + Mandrills is definitely the best combination of creatures vs. combo. I think you need Delver or Winter Orb in your 75 and Delver has more impact because you get to run it maindeck.
Overall, I like the Jonadian approach, but it's most likely a setup you want to have access to after sideboarding, not something you want as your baseline.
There's also the option of running Grim Lavamancer, but I think it's too narrow and likely also too cute. I would probably include LoamRing again before running Grim and even that I'm not a huge fan of right now. The main draw of this deck is how efficient and straightforward it is, I don't think you want to mess with that concept.
I'm posting this in the RUG forum because it is spiritually a RUG deck. If I post it over on the BUG thread they're just going to tell me to cut Stifles and run a pile of bad cards like Hymn to Tourach and Leovold.
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Fatal Push
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
8 fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
I've been trying to find a way to not play Tarmogoyf for some time. Fatal Push is a nice upgrade from Bolt against most creatures, and the minor loss of reach is still present in Deathrite. I have the 4 Geese because they're still the best 1-drop after Delver. Three deathrites because we don't really ever want two. Bob might be too cute, in which case there should just be more spells in that slot. The list does feel a little light on removal; the options in black past Push are lackluster at best.
I've been playing a bit of Canadian Threshold on MODO of late...
About 2 weeks before Top was banned, I saw the light and realized that Winter Orb was The Truth against Miracles. A traditional build (4 Delver of Secrets/4 Tarmogoyf/4 Nimble Mongoose/2 Spell Pierce/2 Spell Snare/2 Forked Bolt) with 2 Winter Orb was overwhelmingly favored against CounterTop Miracles.
Around the same time, I saw the light again and realized that a traditional build with 2 Dismember and 3 Pyroblast in the Sideboard was overwhelming favored against Grixis Delver. People obsess too much about how effective Deathrite Shaman is against Nimble Mongoose. Tempo decks without Nimble Mongoose still want to kill opposing Deathrite Shamans on sight. Opposing Deathrite Shaman are only an issue against Sultai Delver because when we tap out to destroy their turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, they are in a good position to resolve Tarmogoyf on Turn 2 which we don't have removal for, combined with their removal for our Tarmogoyfs. Post-board, once we have 7-8 spot removal spells main deck, we have huge a strategic advantage against Grixis Delver. The only card in their deck that matters is the curmudgeonly Gurmag Angler as a 2-of while we have 4 of the dynamic Nimble Mongoose.
I was wracking up 4-1's in leagues on the back of wins against Miracles and Grixis when Sensei's Divining Top was, of course, banned. I made some hay in the immediate discord after the banning, but people started playing these decks with a lot of Baleful Strix and Fatal Push. It was then that I started re-evaluating the creature suite. I basically tried all manner of configurations with Delver of Secrets, Nimble Mongoose, Hooting Mandrills and True-Name Nemesis.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 True-Name Nemesis
Regarding the creature suite, the deck basically needs to start with 4 Delver of Secrets and 4 Nimble Mongoose. When Delver is cut, opponents are in a much better position to play around Stifle and Daze. Nimble Mongoose usually dominates the board when opponents are limited to 2-3 mana.
Hooting Mandrills is great against combo, great against Fatal Push and Lightning Bolt, bad against Miracles, and sometimes isn't good with Nimble Mongoose. I think Hooting Mandrills would best be played in a configuration that has extra ways to dump cards in the graveyard, which would probably mean maindeck Life from the Loam, Thought Scour or Gitaxian Probe. The trouble I have is fitting those extra cards when I really don't want cut any of the 2 Spell Snare, 2 Spell Piere and 2 Forked Bolt package.
I think some amount of True-Name Nemesis in the maindeck is basically a must. It's definitely an improvement over Tarmogoyf against Baleful Strix, Fatal Push and Miracles. Costing 3 mana is obviously an issue sometimes but the ability to pitch it to Force of Will heavily mitigates this drawback and makes the card not too terrible against combo. Another issue is the tension between True-Name Nemesis and Rough/Tumble against Death and Taxes, but there are alternatives to Rough/Tumble.
The 4 True-Name Nemesis ultimately proved to be my favorite configuration of the above options. My current build:
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Sideboard:
1 Forked Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Vendilion Clique
In this configuration, the plan against Grixis Delver is -2 Spell Snare, -2 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Forked Bolt. The win percentage with this build drops a bit against Grixis Delver compared to configuration with access to Tarmogoyf and Dismember. However, it's still pretty east to burn all their small creatures and trump Gurmag Angler with True-Name Nemesis or Force of Will.
My plan against Elves and Death and Taxes vis-a-vis Rough/Tumble was to max out on Submerge (also great against the hated Sultai Delver) and hope for the best with what I've got against Death and Taxes, which is normally played pretty infrequently.
In leagues, I seem to be getting more 3-2'd than the 4-1's I was getting pre-Sensei's Divining Top ban. Also, Death and Taxes performed well in the last Legacy Challange. For these reasons I'm wanting to re-evaluate my sideboard and possibly creature configuration further. I'm definitely interested in Delver/Mongoose/Mandrills build with Loam/Scour/Probe. Also, a 4 Delver/3 Mongoose/3 Goyf/2 TNN seems promising as well.
In any case, I think with the re-emergence of Miracles in the meta and the on-going dominance of Grixis Delver, Nimble Mongoose and Canadian Threshold are reasonably well positioned.
Hey all, stopping back in with another local weekly summary. My list was the following
Maindeck
18 Lands
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Stifle
Sideboard
1 Nimble Mongoose
1 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Seal of Fire
2 Pyroblast
1 Cursed Totem
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
So overall changes were -1 Surgical Extraction, -1 Rough//Tumble, -1 Spell Snare, +1 Seal of Fire, +1 Divert, +1 Cursed Totem. The only matchup where I actively wanted to draw multiple Rough//Tumbles was Elves (granted there's a lot of it at my store) so three felt a little heavy. I added seal in as another removal spell that is also reasonable against stuff like Burn, and is much better than the third Rough//Tumble against Grixis. Due to the difficulty I was having with Elves in testing, and the waning of Reanimator at the store I got greedy and played Cursed Totem in place of Surgical number three. Divert was an attempt to add in another card for D&T and Abrupt Becay based good stuff decks.
I went 3-1 beating Lands and Elves twice, losing to Bug Delver. I think with this setup Elves is very close to a 50-50 MU. I got very lucky versus Lands and fairly unlucky versus Bug Delver. That deck seems really difficult to beat with only 2 True-Names in the deck. Tarmogoyf just does too much work against us. With the ridiculous 20 land Bug lists it's hard to even keep them off of mana. I don't really know what could possibly be done to make that matchup manageable.
I've still been liking Mongoose a lot, but I'm interested in trying a build with Cryptic Serpent as the fatty of choice over something like Tarmogoyf or Mandrills (which I think has far too much tension with Mongoose). I wish the card were just a little better (slightly reduced cost and swapped power and toughness) and it would be absolutely perfect in the slot, but regardless I would like to try it out.
I feel like this deck wants Dismembers, as it can't hope to beat a single Angler. I think that Bob is super good in a shell like this, but it seems like we'd miss Bolt a lot. Just having Bolt in your deck makes Bob so much better against combo, because that's just even less dead draws available to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
@JonLX Try my list. The extra selection available supplements the idea of being able to swap threats on the fly in different matchups. The sideboard is obviously not good in the MTGO meta, but I think that at very least the three creatures and two Rough//Tumbles are pretty much universal.
Some thoughts on your build:Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
1) I think that you want less than 12 creatures in pretty much all builds of Canadian, and especially so when you are playing multiple True-Names. I think that you can very easily get away with one less True-Name, probably two if you would like to.
2) I don't like what playing so many True-Names makes you have to do to your sideboard. Rough//Tumble is one of the main reasons to play Canadian IMO.
3) I am usually not a fan of forked bolt in canadian, but I actually like it in your list with so many True-Names. You don't NEED to kill Deathrite immediately like a standard goyf/mandrills list does.
4) I would almost consider siding a basic Island in your list as a card against grixis. Stifle grixis in particular I could see you having a lot of difficulty with, as you're forced to take the midrange role. This ensures you can't get wasted off of cantrip mana, and is an extra land that you can use to cast True-Name. Given your current configuration I'd actually approach the matchup after board differently (assuming stifle grixis):
In: 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Spell Pierce, 3 Pyroblast
Out: 2 Nimble Mongoose, 2 Force of Will, 1 Spell Snare
I would approach the game with the idea of getting to the midgame and just winning with True-Name. The only card that really ends up mattering is Young Pyromancer, as he is the only card that can single-handedly win the game before you get to that point. This is why I would choose to leave in a single spell snare over something like the third Mongoose. You use Stifle to protect your own lands and Spell Pierce to counter Pyroblasts (on your True-Names) and Stifles from the opponent's side. In the matchup Force is only ever used to counter Angler and True-Names anyways, and with 4 of your own True-Names I just don't think that you need the full 4 in.
Thresholders, could aby of you answer a question for me, pls?
Should I try to run Sylvan Library in this deck?
I haven't seen it in your lists posted here. I would like to understand why.
Thanks.
Ponders just tend to do the same thing a turn earlier while powering Goose.
That said, people often run it as a 1-of in the Side IIRC.
Library is more of a threat than a cantrip, not that the distinction is terribly important. You should NEVER consider running Library over something like Ponder. I like playing Library in place of Goyf when there's a lot of Swords decks and combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
We originally started playing Library back in 2012 because we wanted 10 1/2 threats preboard and 6 1/2 removal spells. Library did that much better than Snapcaster Mage on average, but back then there were a lot of Swords to Plowshares around to fuel Library.
Library is really only good when you can draw 2+ extra cards and in the current metagame you can't really do that. It's a liability in Delver mirrors, heavy lifeloss is too dangerous against Storm and paying two mana mainphase is too risky vs. all the fast combo decks. There's also Abrupt Decay, which is kind annoying (Decay comes with Goyf, which grows when they kill Library to make it even worse).
Library is still good against Miracles, Stone/Deathblade, D&T, Show and Tell & Maverick, but Winter Orb is better against all of those anyway while also being great against Loam strategies. Sylvan Library tries to win the long game, Winter Orb shuts it off, which plays much better in this deck.
got it. thx
Sylvan Library is a great card, but like all sideboard slots, it is metagame dependent. I like Library in games where other decks have you beat on card advantage so it ensures a consistent stream of card quality for you. At the very least it is like getting a Top activation each turn, but sometimes you can pay 4/8 life to grab a bolt, 2nd counterspell, etc. to allow you to close out the game in a single turn. I ran a singleton Library maindeck when my meta was infested with Blue Jace decks and it was quite helpful there. Sometimes I would even swap a Goyf out for it in Game 2 so that I could draw extra counters against combo.
That being said, the deck has a variety of tools for fighting slow decks: Winter Orb as mentioned before as well as Sulfuric Vortex. Each card gives you different advantages for different MUs so it comes down to what plays well at your local level.
Yeah I goofed a bit. I should've mentioned what was implicitly mentioned above: It's CDA unless you can spend the life, and in an environment filled with Delvers and Pushes you don't have the luxury. Glad people found a better answer; I partly answered because I thought he may get no feedback.
Anyone playing at vegas? I'd love to hear how everyone is doing/ see some reports after.
There's a 9-0 Rug delver list
I just saw! Looking forward to seeing the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios
Here you go:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raticate_Tail
Creature (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
Sorcery (5)
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
Instant (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
I ended up running canadian to 10-5 with this list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 Force of Will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 dismember
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough // Tumble
2 submerge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ground Seal
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Winter Orb
Rounds were:
4c Loam 1-2
Esper Stoneblade 0-2 I got blown out by supreme verdict
BR reanimator 2-0
Storm 2-0
Burn 0-2 I punted really hard
Sneak & Show 2-0
Sneak and Show 2-0
Grixis Delver 2-1 I was playing against a friend of mine, games 1&3 were weird games which ended up being land-battles until eventually I stuck a threat and won. Game 2 he stuck an early TNN with counterspell backup.
No show 2-0 I later learned this was someone from my area who was playing a Show & Tell deck so I'm kind of disappointed he didn't show up.
Mono-red prison 2-0
Bant Deathblade 1-2
Bant Deathblade 2-1
BUG Delver 1-2
Sneak & Show 2-1 This was the one game I dropped vs combo. He got me with a Blood Moon + Force backup
12-post 2-1 notably I sideboarded as if he was playing infect and ended up with 3 dead SB cards game 2. I should have had more coffee
There was a ton of Sneak and Show, Mono-red, and BR reanimator that day which was a big help to anyone playing delver. I don't remember a single match where there wasn't someone at one of the tables next to me wasn't playing one of those decks. The 4x pierce paid off big even against the fair decks.
The only thing I'm super worried about right now with the deck is TNN, especially out of Bant Deathblade. I think I'm gonna try and fit 2 TNN's of my own in the sideboard
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/678079#online
Another 5-0, maybe this deck will be a thing again :)
the 2/2 split solves your TNN problem i guess. Maybe you can play 2 Mandrills in the Slot of the Goyf to fight Pushes and Nemesis as well
I'm interested for what matchups the pierces are boarded out in.
Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
4-color deathblade I bring out most of them because I really only care about their creatures. If they're good they'll board out Jace against me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
Death & taxes I take out all of them.
Some number come out in delver matchups for flusterstorm
Probably some others I'm not thinking of, but honestly the card is jut amazing right now.
Everyday without Canadian content makes my heart bleed so here is my tournament report from Vegas.
My list was:
// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 True-Name Nemesis
// 26 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
// 18 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
// 5 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Creature
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Izzet Staticaster
// 11 Instant
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Red Elemental Blast
// 2 Sorcery
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Life from the Loam
Round 1 & 2
Byes
Won a trial in Frankfurt and 4-0ed a trial the day before (conceded for my opponent in the last round after winning 2-0)
Round 3 Death and Taxes
I lose game 1 to a overwhelming board position after my two Delver decided to stay wizards for 4 turns.
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 1 Izzet Staticaster
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Destructive Revelry
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
+ 1 Life from the Loam
- 1 Daze (maybe Force not sure)
- 2 Spellpierce
- 1 Preordain
- 3 Stifle
I opened a pretty removal heavy hand but without a threat. After I cleared every creature he played he manages to stick a mirran which finishes me after failing to find a removal or threat.
Round 4 Sneakshow
He tryes to combo turn 1 lucky me I have the force and beat him down with double delver.
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Red Elemental Blast
- 4 Lightning Bolt
- 2 Dismember
- 1 True-Name Nemesis
I start with a delver and a REB for his Show and Tell on turn 2. I hit him while he is cantripping and after two hits with the delver I am able to surgical his S&T so he scoops.
Round 5 Grixis Delver
I beat the shit out of him as my creatures are all better (except for Angler maybe), the disruption too and the manabase also.... really why do people play this shit?
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 1 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
+ 1 Life from the Loam
- 2 Stifle
- 2 Spellpierce
- 2 Spell Snare
- 1 Force of Will
I find loam and 4 wastelands :D
Round 6 Burn
I never find a creature.......
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Submerge
+ 1 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Destructive Revelry
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
- 4 Stifle
- 2 Dismember
-1 Wasteland
I got a Goose for the beats and he draws only one mana bolts which bring me down to 3 with him also at 3 and he topdecks....fireblast :(
Round 7 White Drazi
I go first with Delver but without any disruption. My oppenent mulls to 6 and starts with tomb into petal....I started cursing as I feared S&T again but he only has little Thalia and passes. We race and I finally win with me at 5 and him at 3.
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Destructive Revelry
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
- 4 Stifle
- 1 Preordain
My opponent mulled to 6 again and plays plains pass. Trop go counters a chalice out of the cavern with a pierce. For the next turns my opponent fails to find a land and just plays 3 walking balistas. The last finally sticks and he finds a City of traitors. So we race Mandrills against Balista....he invests his whole mana each turn in the balista so I figure I am fine with that and I bolt the balista as he tries to put on the fourth counter.
Round 8 Deathblade
I am not sure but the lifetotals tell a story of a zoo-style game from my side and a lot of nothing from his side.
Dont know what I boarded something like
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 2 Submerge
+ 1 Destructive Revelry
+ 1 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
+ 1 Life from the Loam
- 2 Spellpierce
- 2 Stifle
- 2 Hooting Mandrills (Swords on Mandrills is tough)
- ???
I get my Delvers sworded but stick a goose which rides me to victory till at him at 10 a nemesis joins on my side so he scoops.
Round 9 Maverick
A really classic of legacy and it feels like 2012 again :D
We race each other and I win a close race thanks to delver and goose.
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 2 Submerge
+ 1 Destructive Revelry
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
+ 1 Life from the Loam
- 4 Stifle
- 2 Spellpierce
- 1 Preordain
He does a lot of noting but suddenly is able to stick a stoneforge into batterskull and suddenly gets marit large (both lands in his hand.....) finally I am 2 damage short as he is able to bounce batterskull in response to my revelry.... my out was that he wont notice.... he did :(
Game 3 I played the classic Combo of goose into Mandrills which finish him after I removed a stoneforge and another random creature with two bolts.
So 7/2 day 1 so far so good
Day 2 to come :)
Kind regards
Marius
Round 10 Deathblade
I manadenial him into oblivion while beating down with goose & delver.
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 1 Destructive Revelry
+ 1 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
+ 1 Life from the Loam
- 2 Hooting Mandrills
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 Daze
- 2 Stifle
I keep a greedy hand with one Tropical and find the second just in time as he wastelands me right afterwards. Thanks to his wasteland I am stuck on a volcanic which cant cast the gooses I draw and I die after he sticks a Batterskull.
I mull down to 6 and play Delver turn 1. He drops a land and passes. I dont flip but I draw the second delver which I play and pass. My opponent fetches and plays Meddling mage (O.o) naming Bolt. My Delver flip with a dismember and a cantrip finds me another Delver.....After the game he is boarding back and I see he boarded 2 meddling mage and 2 surgical any ideas why meddling mage?
Round 11 ANT
I dont know what my opponent is on and keep a threat heavy but disruption light hand... I die after bringing him down to 2 but unable to finish him :(
+ 1 Izzet Staticaster
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Red Elemental Blast
- 2 Dismember
- 1 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Nimble Mungoose
- 1 Preordain/Trop?
I dont remember much of these games but my notes suggest I beat him down with a Delver in both games.
Round 12 Grixis Delver
We trade resources for eternity until I stick the mandrills and he has a Deathrite and I slowly beat him down while he is gaining life with the shaman.
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 1 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
+ 1 Life from the Loam
- 2 Stifle
- 2 Spellpierce
- 2 Spell Snare
- 1 Force of Will
The Game starts good for me and I feel already the win as he is down to 1 but finally kills my Delver and follows with Angler in the next turn which kills me while I am unable to find a bolt or critter :(
I beat him down with goose while he is never really in the game and probes twice which makes my clock even faster.
Round 13 BUG Delver
I feel the matchup is pretty even if they dont play more than 1 Tombastalker....my opponent had none but at least 2 Angler instead -.- So I loose in a fast fashion to Angler + shaman.
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 2 Submerge
+ 1 Life from the Loam
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Stifle
Luckily my opponents only creatures are Delvers in this game which I can kill to get my own Delvers through.
In the last game my opponent produces a steady stream of goyfs and Anglers. I even dismember an Angler and a Goyf but he follows with more goyfs :(
Round 14 ANT (Rodrigo Toggores)
I am a little bit nervous after the pairing but I have a great seven with 2 lands Delver 2 Pierce 1 Force 1 Ponder....I beat him down to 5 before I die O.o
+ 1 Izzet Staticaster
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Red Elemental Blast
- 2 Dismember
- 1 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Nimble Mungoose
- 1 Preordain/Trop?
This time my Hand is pretty bad and I play a Delver t1 but my only disruption is pyroblast and daze....When he is down to 6 he comboes off while I have one card he doesnt know (other 2 are pyroblast and land). He uses Dark petition without cracking his LED and plays tutor afterwards....So I think damn my surgical is pretty useless....but then I notice he discarded tendrills with his LED :D
I just have a Mongoose for beats but a Mandrills joins him pretty fast. He therapys me for force of will and sees Surgical Snare and 2 Dazes (and something not relevant). After he passes the turn I attack (drew another Snare ) and pass. He plays land pass. Now I draw my second surgical so I figured I dont want to get therapied so I surgical in his drawstep....lucky me I hit a second one in his hand. When he is at 7 he asks how much cards are in my grave which where 2 at that moment so he passes and in my turn I played:
Surgical your probes
Daze my surgical
Spellsnare my Daze
Daze my other Daze
Fetch
Attack for 7.... he didnt saw that coming :D
Round 15 Grixis Delver
I loose the first to after he kills my delver which brought him down to 7 but is able to stick an Angler (I hate this card so much)
+ 1 True-Name Nemesis
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 1 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Rough // Tumble
+ 1 Life from the Loam
- 2 Stifle
- 2 Spellpierce
- 2 Spell Snare
- 1 Force of Will
He cant remove my Mungooses while I bolt his shaman and red blast his delver.
Delver and Mungoose team up for a quick beathdown while he gets his Delver killed and and Angler dismembered.
So 12/3 overall and place 55 :)
Some thoughts about cardchoices
Preordain:
Before the tournament I discussed my list excessively with a friend (thank you very much Kevin :))and we figured that preordain is the best for this slot as other options were:
Forked Bolt
Creature
Spell Pierce
We figured that if these cards are good they are really good but if not they are horrible. So we decided on preordain as cantrips can never be THAT bad doesnt matter which matchup.
True-Name Nemesis:
Felt pretty clunky as 3 mana are a lot but I definitly wanted 11 threats and was not sure which would fit best as all alternatives felt worse:
Hooting Mandrills #3 They really mess up the Thresh for the goose and drawing multiples sucks
Goyf Feels really awkward at the moment as it dies to so much and gets walled by Angler and Nemesis
Vendillion Clique The additional disruption is nice but 3 mana for an unimpressive body is a lot.
Snapcaster Mage Also a 3 Mana thread but with an even worse body than Vendillion
Izzet Staticaster
Another suggestion from a friend was the Staticaster over the second Rough // Tumble as it comboes better with Nemesis. I sadly never played it but it stayed in the board and I have to say I really like the repitable damage source against Elves Taxes and Infect. Sadly Grimm is not playable in my list as I already run Hooting Mandrills and Mungoose :(
Overall the list felt pretty solid the only thing I would love to have is another good answer to Delve threats and Goyfs but the third dismember is not playable I think :( But the Loam was a good tech in this matchups and defnitly helped here.
Hour of Devastation
Could tragic lesson be playable? It offers real CA like painful truths did in the black splashed lists or in the BUG Threshold. Bouncing a Land is not a real drawback when you already have 3 in play if you play it sorcery speed you can even replay the land to cast it for actually 1U or you can brainstorm the land away.
Kind regards
Marus
Hi guys!
Have been reading here for a while now and finally decided to register. Just for a short introduction of myself, I'm playing MtG for almost 2 decades now and started playing Legacy a couple of years ago. I started Legacy by playing Dredge but shortly thereafter switched to more interactive decks like Punishing Jund, D'n'T and tried out some stuff until I got stuck with all kinds of tempo decks which I made a couple of decent results with since then.
I would consider myself a decent player with some experience yet far away from being a pro player but I'm willing to learn and improve and so here I am asking questions like...
Why would you side out that many Stifles against D'n'T? I usually don't cut any of them or 1 at best since they rely on a lot of different abilities which makes Stifle pretty versatile here in my opinion. SFM (both abilities), equip or damage triggers of equipments, the Batterskull token, Wasteland, Vial, Wisp and even mother are things I'd love to stifle from time to time. I want them to spend as many resources as possible on things they eventually get stifled while I can make the clock ticking. They do have inevitability in this matchup I think so I want to gain every advantage possible in the early turns and Stifle does a great job here. Also Stifle protects my lands in the post board games which helps me cast a Nemesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTB
As mentioned, I like to keep them in and shave more Forces/Dazes and to me it seems to be pretty legit. I have hardly had any losses in tournament play against D'n'T at all when playing Canadian Thresh. ^^
Cause it's better in the black, I guess. Canadian sure is great against most kinds of relevant decks (including Grixis) right now, but when it comes to facing less common decks I'd also pick Grixis over Canadian since it has more active plays and pretty diverse threats which are hard to handle for most opposing decks. I top-8'ed a 200+ player tournament last year playing Grixis having to fight through 3 Eldrazi decks along with Dredge, Infect, Miracles and 2 times the mirror. I don't think that Canadian would have taken me that far especially against Dredge and the Eldrazi players. Grixis did a great job here since YP stalls the board and DRS puts on some pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTB
Also the combo matchup is pretty decent for they cannot afford waiting to go off as late as possible in order to assamble a counter proof hand 'cause you could just tear apart their hand with Therapy. The mirror spells hard times indeed but when it comes to the rest of the field, Grixis's got a point there. :)
Maybe a noob question: how do we fight Knight of the Reliquary.
It tutors for lands and gets quickly big. I find both very annoying.
Usually you race.Quote:
Originally Posted by jattra
Post side submerge (x3 when Maverick was a thing) is usually enough.