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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Creature (15)
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Death Rite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Hunt Master of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 thrun
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 courser
4 Veteran Explorer
Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed
Instant (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
Planeswalker (2)
1 vraska
1 garruk, primal hunter
Sorcery (9)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Artifact (2)
2 sensei top
Land (23)
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
2 surgical
1 Golgari Charm
1 krosan Grip
2 Hymn to tourach
2 duress
1 chains of Mephistopheles
1 Dryad militant
1 sylvan library
2 slaughter games
2 carpet of flowers
Sb can always use work. I am lily-less because they are incredibly expensive online and I am not made of money so I made do. Hunt master is a house. Duress over seize because burn is here and there online. Courser has been alright but hurts against goyf. Please feel free to criticize or ask questions. I do need to get the 4 grove, bills come first. Sorry.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Creature (15)
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Death Rite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Hunt Master of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 thrun
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 courser
4 Veteran Explorer
Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed
Instant (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
Planeswalker (2)
1 vraska
1 garruk, primal hunter
Sorcery (9)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Artifact (2)
2 sensei top
Land (23)
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
2 surgical
1 Golgari Charm
1 krosan Grip
2 Hymn to tourach
2 duress
1 chains of Mephistopheles
1 Dryad militant
1 sylvan library
2 slaughter games
2 carpet of flowers
Sb can always use work. I am lily-less because they are incredibly expensive online and I am not made of money so I made do. Hunt master is a house. Duress over seize because burn is here and there online. Courser has been alright but hurts against goyf. Please feel free to criticize or ask questions. I do need to get the 4 grove, bills come first. Sorry.
I think you need to drop a creature or 2. Jund is much better at controlling when you hand isn't all creatures. I used to run courser, and found it very lackluster. Also personal choice but I would move either thrun or thragtusk to the SB. If your deck is too top heavy you won't make it their without vet, which will happen from time to time.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Tilzinger - I usually get labeled Bug control as most of the decks I play fall into that bucket so I am sure its just habit.
@jund list-
Drop courser, 2nd huntmaster and the broodmate. Your curve is waaaay to high on creatures. I am also not a fan of the Drs in the jund deck do to space issues. You will be blowing deed more often with jund than any other color.
Do not run vraska, that card is terrible really, I do like the garruk as it is the best walker in the jund colors for this deck (in the creature maker role)
You need lilys. Like 2 minimum better 3. I ran 3 when I played punishing fit. Setting pfire and grove up with lily is the main draw to this color combo. This deck also folds to combo but the chance at hitting with a double therapy into lily gives you some chance at stealing the first game which is significant for me.
For the sb I would run reb over carpet. I am not a fan carpet in punishing fire. You are not ramping in the matchups you want carpet but playing a control deck.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I can see cutting courser but the others are fine for me right now.
Vraska has been great. She is usually a vindicate and then catches bolt.
Lily is over 104 tickets each on mtgo, not willing to dedicate that much online, sorry.
I have never been a fan of red blast in this deck but I will try it since it seems good online.
I like carpet against miracle and other decks of the sort where explorer isn't as one sided.
I appreciate the criticism. Don't take my rebuttal as stubborn ignorance. I prefer to stick with things and learn.
I want to iron out the main and shake up the sb.
Lily is incredible in this deck. I played 3 when I had it irl. I CANNOT justify 315$ for electronic Lily's.
I know it limits the deck and takes some amount of credit from me but that is life.
I look forward to hearing more from you all.
Thanks again!
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
I can see cutting courser but the others are fine for me right now.
Vraska has been great. She is usually a vindicate and then catches bolt.
Lily is over 104 tickets each on mtgo, not willing to dedicate that much online, sorry.
I have never been a fan of red blast in this deck but I will try it since it seems good online.
I like carpet against miracle and other decks of the sort where explorer isn't as one sided.
I appreciate the criticism. Don't take my rebuttal as stubborn ignorance. I prefer to stick with things and learn.
I want to iron out the main and shake up the sb.
Lily is incredible in this deck. I played 3 when I had it irl. I CANNOT justify 315$ for electronic Lily's.
I know it limits the deck and takes some amount of credit from me but that is life.
I look forward to hearing more from you all.
Thanks again!
Not to be picky but vraska is far from vindicate as she hits non lands, which is closer to maelstrom pulse without the obliterating token bonus.
I have tried her and found that she seems really powerful while I was playing her, I never regretted taking her out of my 75 because I never felt I needed her.
I have tried carpet against miracles and found it to be a dead card half the time because of how much easy it is to make your land drops, the ramp is nice but we don't want to race miracles becuase then we fall to terminus. We can grind them out of resources as a jund deck.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Went X-1 in our weekly, losing only to Infect (stupid Inkmoth god hand...)
4 Siege Rhino
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
15
2 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
9
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
22
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tsunami
2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
For changes, sometimes, I missed Recurring Nightmare. I think I'll sub Qasali Pridemage for Rec Sage, since having instant speed destruction would have stopped Inkmoth many times. Revoker was excellent. Elspeth was very good. Due to some bad luck, I wasn't super explosive, I was just grindy with my Veterans. I didn't get any crazy turn 2 Rhinos or anything, just solid grinding. I think I'll be trying the SFM build and see where I want to go from here. Rhino is a crazy big threat, but I did have a bit of trouble with Angler (sometimes). Safekeeper was the straight nutter butters.
-Matt
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@ matt : how were the painful truth ?
I like the idea of safekeeper, but maybe in the sideboard against white decks (rhino survives non white removal), mostly because my list is tight as it is (playing 4 rhino and stoneforge).
About substituting quasali for rec sage, I've made the switch but for me it was a way to have a 5/6 rhino so I could ignore opposing Goyf/Tasigur and race some zombie fish. Also, while it cost the same amount of mana in total, 3+1 is much flexible than 4 and let you play around daze and spell pierce.
The body being a lot bigger is relevant because I think that rhino fit is the most agro version of nic fit .
Anyway, for those playing stoneforge and drs, do you skip deed altogether ?
If yes why nobody is arboring some dryad?
I've found that having the 4 zenith count as acceleration alongside the drs and the explorers ensure a smooth early game and arbor provides a surprise equipment carrier of a fetch or protect against liliana.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I have an old build with Dryad, equipment and Sylvan and no deeds. I'll repost it since it's an example of a deedless dryad list. And it seems interesting as an experimental build. Some meta choices have become irrelevant, the Persecutions should be Paths.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post855246
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
While painful truths is only harmonize for 1 less mana I think that is a big deal. It goes from a card that is really only online with a vet dying to a card playable even turn 2 with a Drs. I would recommend 2 in most lists.
@jund lists- If people want to play things like vraska then why ask for feedback? That card is not legacy playable unless your entire meta is U/w miracles and blade decks. If people have budget concerns that is understandable but at some point the entire deck changes. punishing fire is worth playing not really because it kills little guys (deed and decay already do that) its that in combo with lily. Running 3-4 vets and another 4 Drs in a control deck is waaaaay to many 1 mana dorks. you will draw poorly as the game goes forward which is also why carpet is not good. carpet is a card that scapeshift and maybe junk can play due to the way those games play out. Jund is control deck.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Plm
Anyway, for those playing stoneforge and drs, do you skip deed altogether ?
If yes why nobody is arboring some dryad?
I've found that having the 4 zenith count as acceleration alongside the drs and the explorers ensure a smooth early game and arbor provides a surprise equipment carrier of a fetch or protect against liliana.
Hum.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post905974
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Plm
@ matt : how were the painful truth ?
I like the idea of safekeeper, but maybe in the sideboard against white decks (rhino survives non white removal), mostly because my list is tight as it is (playing 4 rhino and stoneforge).
About substituting quasali for rec sage, I've made the switch but for me it was a way to have a 5/6 rhino so I could ignore opposing Goyf/Tasigur and race some zombie fish. Also, while it cost the same amount of mana in total, 3+1 is much flexible than 4 and let you play around daze and spell pierce.
The body being a lot bigger is relevant because I think that rhino fit is the most agro version of nic fit .
Anyway, for those playing stoneforge and drs, do you skip deed altogether ?
If yes why nobody is arboring some dryad?
I've found that having the 4 zenith count as acceleration alongside the drs and the explorers ensure a smooth early game and arbor provides a surprise equipment carrier of a fetch or protect against liliana.
I liked Painful Truths quite a bit. I think 2-3 is a good number.
-Matt
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Painful Truths looks really nice for the Jund builds. For the white builds, is the 3rd card enough better than doubling as a removal spell? I'm comparing it to Abzan Charm here.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Themucher
I do agree hunter is a really good card, but the 6 drops are even more powerful. Titan grabs stronghold or wolfrun, dragon is great against Liliana and jace besides all the other flyers. And ruric thar beats combo and every delver deck with ease.
Yes, 6 drop are more powerfull then 4 drops. However you don't always get the six mana to cast them or be too late. Rutic thuar seems to be a better sideborad card for combo.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrIggins
Painful Truths looks really nice for the Jund builds. For the white builds, is the 3rd card enough better than doubling as a removal spell? I'm comparing it to Abzan Charm here.
Id say yes, since we already have so much removal.
Talking with Koby, suggested I cut Safekeeper and make room for Sun Titan and Lilianas. I disagree in theory since it can be hard to break that symmetry in Junk versus Jund which can discard Fires, but now with Truths it may not be as bad.
Possible change:
-1 Safekeeper, -1 Rhino, -1 Elspeth, -1 Qasali. Add 3 Liliana and 1 Sun Titan. Also possible: another E Wit, Courser, 2 sfm 2 equip, etc.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
tilzinger or jbone making it to mead hall tonight? I should be but I will most likely sleeve up a bug midrange deck with Drs and painful truths. Miracles was pretty big last week there. So either this or I could just jam tusk after tusk into the maw of terminus too so idk haha
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
This is a slightly updated version of the BUG list i've been running for a while.
Latest changes are DTT -> Painful Truths and adding Titania and DRS to test.
Mainboard (61)
24 Lands
2 Bayou
2 Forest
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
14 Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Veteran Explorer
20 Other spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Cryptic Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Painful Truths
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard (15)
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thragtusk
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
haven't had the chance to really test this yet, i would however love to hear some other people's thoughts on it :)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viridia
haven't had the chance to really test this yet, i would however love to hear some other people's thoughts on it :)
I'll give you mine so we could exchange some ideas.
This is a no "cunning wish" list.
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ętherling
2 Baleful Strix
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Trinket Mage
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
1) Deck philosophy
This deck is very similar to any control deck using 4 ponder as a strong setup plan.
"Ponder miracle" tries to assemble countertop and I am trying to assemble veteran + therapy to gain massive advantage.
By doing so (4 ponder list), you can decrease drastically the amount of lands needed in such a control deck.
The list might be stretched to the maximum as I have elected to play 20 lands. But rest assured, I've done my maths due diligences and a lot of tests so far (either with this list or with my wish Fit list) so that I'm comfortable with this number. Nevertheless, I won't blame anyone for playing another one (at least an utility one, be it a manland or something else)
I have debated more than enough here about the sheer power of ponder over gitaxian probe or over SDT. If gitaxian could have been during a glimpse of time, a serious contender, since DTT ban, it has lost a lot of its flavor.
As far as PT (Painful truths) is concerned, it has replaced DTT as a 2-of for testing purposes (as I was impressed by the results in my Junk Fit list), BUT 2 SDT might as well be the way to go. Time will tell.
Anyway, as every other Nic Fit list, your main goal is to go over the top and BUG has ALL the necessary tools (including access to the most powerful color in its shell,or at least the most represented in our format).
2) Creature selection
- Snapcaster has been included because it provides such a unique effect. Games against miracles were also a bit harder without him. It is to BUG fit what Eternal witness is to Jund or Junk colors.
- Scavenging ooze is a necessary evil in such deck as it is one if not your only "out" to grave based strategies which are usually designed to beat BUG strategies (PF is a real enemy, grave based combo decks etc...). It is also a cheap (by cheap consider cheap + not requiring GG) life gainer or a huge beast in some MU (Burn and D&T to name it). Ability that is always more handy than not. DRS might be better at gaining life, easier to cast but is also easier to kill/to hate or play around.
- Baleful strix is also a necessary evil. I have kind of a love/hate relationship with the guy. I always feel unimpressed by the guy, mostly because of the stress it puts on your very first turns (does not require green and so is a theorically nonbo with veteran)) but each time I ended up cut him, I have regretted it.
- Glen Elendra is my muse. Usually played SB as a 1 of in a lot of BUG Fit along with Notion Thief, I have elected to play her MD, instead of a pair of Thragtusk. Her effect is no match in legacy in my humble opinion. Sure, Thrag is life with powerful ETB and LTB triggers and has a professional left-swing that can knock out an opponent but GLE has won my preference. Her lower CMC and evasive capacity were the real deal. Not to mention her unique effect and good synergy with the whole deck. Pitchable to FOW was ice on the cake.
- Aetherling is the beater. Far less powerful than the good old Grave Titan. I have won lots of games against miracle but lost some others because he was not G.Star. As winning G1 against miracle, to avoid draw brackets, was a "deciding" key factor, the guy took G.Titan's slot. And if you are still wondering whether he is truly an edge over miracle, just...trust me or play test at least 20 games to get a good grip.
3) Spell selection
3.1) Removal package:
-2 Deed
-1 Toxic
-3 AD
-1 Maelstrom
The 3rd AD might be one too many. With the resurgence of Elves / D&T / S&S, playing a 1-of golgari charm MD is a change to consider/make. I will.
Snapcaster is shining here.
3.2) Disruption package
- 4 CT -> pretty standard
- 4 FOW -> I would not argue here. Some like it hot, some don't. My ground is full of unfair strategies, going out "uncovered" is asking for sexual diseases...
3.3) Planesuckers
- 2 Jace: I guess we can argue here. Liliana was cut from MD during DTT time. Also she was going against the rule n°1 when playing such a BUG list:
"NO CARDS REQUIRING DOUBLE COLOR REQUIREMENT UNDER CMC 4."
Yeah, that is what you get when you are playing a very tight mana that binds you to some *ruleofthumb*.
With such a great density of spells you must ensure you will be able to cast them all, at least G1.
Once the coast is clear, G2 and G3 you can go crazy.
Liliana will stay a SB tool until I revise my judgment or til' the meta burst my face.
4) Sideboard
To fight back against the public enemy n°1 (Blue to name it), one shall always remember that most opponent will side in any anti blue card they might have access to. This usually means that postboard, I invite anyone playing BUG to go "Blacker" or "Greener" or any "mixed BG grill" that looks saucy for you and salty/spicy for your opponent.
Playing a 4 ponder list grants you a large choice.
I have always been very fond of a huge 1-of pile which can attack several different MU:
4.1) Against grave strategies
- a grave wipe = here, nihil spellbomb because nuking your own grave(relic of progenitus for exemple) can be detrimental to snapy shenanigans
- an anti grave = leyline
- 2 anti combo / recursion = 1 permanent spell with "cage" and 1 instant spell "extirpate". I do believe the "TS+surgical screw you" scenario to be very unlikely because of the odds that I prefer "extirpate".
4.2) Against storm combo and some control
- 3 TS = I believe you can do a mixed grill with 1 duress (hedging a bit more against burn) / 1 TS / 1 HTT
- 1 Fluster = uncounterable stuff snapcastable ? Yes sir.
- 1 Liliana = If you survive the early turns, having a bitch bitching every turn is money wise.
- 1 Vendilion = Clock+ Disruption. If your field is burn heavy and you feel safe about combo MU, Thragtusk is a good replacement to Clique.
4.3) Aggro from the Ghetto
- 1 Engineered plague = Tribal decks public enemy. NoSB can also be an option but...more expensive. Rather be digging for other answers if my EP got nuked than dead with NoSB in hand because of 4-CMC...
- 1 Trinket mage = kamikaze chumper calling for backups
- 1 Engineered explosives =another valuable catch'all
- 1 Cage => mostly for GSZ decks and green f.ckers.
4.4) Swiss army knives
- 1 Trinket
- 1 Pithing
- 1 Krosan
Hope you enjoyed the ride as much as I enjoyed the writting.
/happy to discuss
Ralf.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Went X-0 with RhinoTime on my birthday. How...Fitting...get it? :P
3 Siege Rhino
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scavenging Ooze
15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top
14
2 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
11
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
22
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
Courser was nice to have, but felt small. 2nd E. Wit wasn't really ever relevant. Missed having Elspeth, Knight Errant. Liliana didn't really break any backs, and the matchups didn't really need her. I think I like Courser enough to try him out again, but I'll bring back Elspeth. I've been missing having Dryad Arbor a few times, so I think I'm going to try him and maybe just some loose equipments with no SFM (2010 technology, baby).
I don't really miss not having Recurring Nightmare. Painful Truths has been excellent everytime. Sylvan has also been great. I haven't had a ton of explosive starts with Vets in the past little bit, and you sometimes do feel behind against decks like Maverick until you hit multiple Rhinos and/or multiple Deeds/Deluges. I might go back to trying a Thragtusk again as well. Since I don't have time to test each major matchup for 2-3 hours because of school, if anyone wants to run the Rhino list against the following matchups, that'd be wonderful help so I can rep at Seattle!
Miracles
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG
BUG Delver
I feel like if Lands is going to be popular, especially moreso control since it's better against Miracles, having the Safekeeper may not be terrible, but that's where Thrun and Sigarda shine anyway.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I agree with most of the Ralf post. I have been a proponent of probe in the past and would probably still run it in Bug but it is a lot worse than it was with DTT so running ponder is pretty close.
I ran 21 land in my Bug fit (with 2 tarpits/9 fetches/5 duals/5 basics) and bug is absolutely playing the game of a control deck with a low land count game. I also have/would drop Lily from the main. She is better in deck that can abuse her symmetry or doesnt aim to go as over the top. I am on 2 painful truths so in the glen elendra spots I have 2 tusk instead. GE is better against combo decks but tusk is still a beating against midrange. I also ran 3 Jace and do not discount the idea of bouncing tusk and replaying it every turn.
I do not run ooze main deck but do have 1 in the side. I wouldnt run them main deck but I do agree with why Ralf likes them there but I must not have the same value on it.
SB is a bit different. I ran 2 surgical as I had 3 snapcasters, also 2 TS, 1 grip, 1 decay, 1 deluge (so I didnt run 1 main) I had 2 negate, 2 liliana, I have 1 top for the grindy games as well. I ran 1 glen elendra. I also ran 1 Notion thief because its Notion thief and sometimes he gives you a free win. Against storm or now sneak, enchantress (for some reason I have played that 2 times in the last 2 weeks by different ppl) or whatver that cannot remove it and of course the brainstorm steal. I had 1 flex spot in my board I was trying things like lily origins, dispel, a stronghold in the board, etc.
@Matt- I always like having 2 witness in my jund list but with stronghold you may not need the 2nd. also you have more ways of raw card advantage with 2 truth and 1 library that it is probably cuttable. I would cut courser first however. I am not impressed by that card. I know with top it can be an a nice value engine but I think it is fairly low power.
Edit- I do not have the 3 white duals (white duals? yuck! lol) If I can either pick up some cheap ones or get some loaners I will play the lists you post in my weekly and any weekend event I go to for the next (3 weeks is it?) few weeks. I also have some people in my group that play miracles and shardless almost exclusively so i could maybe get some testing in on those.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Rhino-fit is something I've been wanting to try. Have you considered Garruk, Primal Hunter? As for lands, I find the quick marit lage to be the problem. Also, hows the MUD matchup?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
So, what do we think the best way to beat miracles is? Lily, faster clock, fires? Next to maybe MUD or 12 post....probably my worst match-up.
2nd thought: Who will be in St. Louis.....or Seattle for the GP?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
My current (everchanging) build. Suggestions welcome.
I wanted to try out the addition of probe and painful truth because the deck has good lifegain in general and i wanted to use that as a additional ressource. In addition it allows me to draw my reccuring nightmare earlier and improves my cabal therapies as i am still learning the format.
I got rid of most of the stuff which would die to deed and through which i would cripple myself.
Just tried on xmage but it works well so far.
On a sidenote: I'm beginning to fall in love with painful truth. After the banning of dig you can actually win through card advantage against blue decks.
Lands 21:
Bayou
Savannah
Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
Phyrexian Tower
Stirring Wildwood
Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures 15:
Deathrite Shaman
4 Explorer
Qasali Pridemage
Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
Sigarda
Thragtusk
Control Stuff 13:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
Other Stuff 11:
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truth
Recurring Nightmare
Sideboard:
Pissing Needle
3 Extirpate
Night of Soul's Betrayal
Surgical Extraction
Acidic Slime
2 Krosan Grip
Maelstrom Pulse
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
So, what do we think the best way to beat miracles is? Lily, faster clock, fires? Next to maybe MUD or 12 post....probably my worst match-up.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...08&#post749308
Punishing Fire imo has the best the best matchup against Miracles. You have awesome SB options as well as Fire to keep Jace under control and go well with Liliana (protect it against their small guys and discard it to her ability). I wrote a primer about the deck ages ago, decklists needs to be reworked. But looking at the recent Miracle lists it should still be somewhat up to date. Some broken stuff got printed and banned again but oddly enough it seems that not much has changed. The Dragonlord Atarka seems good. No idea about the other matchups though. But a big problem is Dark Depths, there seems to be no solution.
"Faster clock" is the absolute wrong approach to the Miracle matchup. The Miracle deck excels at stopping aggression. It is designed to beat aggressive decks that are 10x better at being aggressive than Nic Fit. You have to play for value. Liliana is awesome though because they can't StoP it or Terminus it.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...08&#post749308
Punishing Fire imo has the best the best matchup against Miracles. You have awesome SB options as well as Fire to keep Jace under control and go well with Liliana (protect it against their small guys and discard it to her ability). I wrote a primer about the deck ages ago, decklists needs to be reworked. But looking at the recent Miracle lists it should still be somewhat up to date. Some broken stuff got printed and banned again but oddly enough it seems that not much has changed. The Dragonlord Atarka seems good. No idea about the other matchups though. But a big problem is Dark Depths, there seems to be no solution.
"Faster clock" is the absolute wrong approach to the Miracle matchup. The Miracle deck excels at stopping aggression. It is designed to beat aggressive decks that are 10x better at being aggressive than Nic Fit. You have to play for value. Liliana is awesome though because they can't StoP it or Terminus it.
The only 2 cards against depth's (3/4 actually) are Blood Moon, Diabolic Edict and Extirpate/Surgical Extraction (when they dredge depths or stage into the yard). RG Lands is just near impossible to win from.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
The only 2 cards against depth's (3/4 actually) are Blood Moon, Diabolic Edict and Extirpate/Surgical Extraction (when they dredge depths or stage into the yard). RG Lands is just near impossible to win from.
I was playing/testing punishing fit with Burning Wish in the main and Ruination in the sideboard this spring. It was nice to have something available from the first game for the worst matchups - Cloudpost and Lands. Also relevant for locking nonbasic heavy decks out once you have a favorable board position. Will try again soon.
Playing Ralf's(?) BUG Wish Fit with Cunning Wish for Ravenous Trap after a dredged Depths is another relevant interaction. The nice thing about it is you don't need to have Trap in your hand, often a dead card, but can keep a wish and wait until the opportunity to exile Depths with the entire graveyard appears.
Good cards vs Miracles are, I agree, Punishing Fire killing Jaces and occasional Mentors. And Slaughter Games getting win condition/Jace/Terminus.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@ miracle : punishing fit has the better game against it, post side a quick slaughter games (maybe fueled by carpet of flowers ) is the way to beat them, go after their win con (jace then entreat/mentor) then witness it back/play a second one. Drop a threat, ride it 'till they answer, rice and repeat (bonus point if you have the two towers online and can rhino them).
I splash a taiga and 3 S.games in rhino fit for that match up (also work against 12 post, albeit not as strongly) if shardless can splash a 4th color for a match up post side I think we can do it.
Also equipment and the surprise arbor can cut some work (or wolfrun plus any dork in the punishing version)
@ lands : that's the reason why I play 4 path (that and some zombie fishes), also most lands players tend to ignore the fact that we usually can survive one marith lage hit and swing back. If your meta is saturated with dark depth you can always pack some sowing salt (or the reprint) but it clutter the sideboard if your not playing burning wish. One thing to keep in mind is that chalice will come for postside games,so keep a decay/deed at the ready.
@ faster clock : rhino fit is the fast version, and it isn't fast enough to win without disruption but it is midrangy whereas punishing is hard board control (and I haven't played bug fit so I have no idea how it plays)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
My latest BUG control list has a lot of tools against miracle. GLE is a nightmare for miracle where Thragtusk is just a pain.
I dunno if there is a best version against miracle. JUND has certainly the best chances to beat miracle in 3 games BUT 50 mins are usually not enough.
My latest approach is focusing on winning G1 and I do believe that BUG is as suited as JUND if not more, as of now, to accomplish this goal.
- Jace is usually a pain for Junk.
- A resolved Deed avoids dying from Entreat.
- Liliana forces them to act. And we all know that the first making any move in a control mirror is usually the one who is going to lose.
- Jund is the better liliana.deck among all nic fit version.
- Cabal therapy are key factors; knowning what you must go for with what Nic Fit version you are playing is key.
Pick your weapon of choice and start testing !
PS: It's been a while since I played with the BUG Wish version. The list was shinning during DTT era.
It might need a bit of revamping since the meta has changed again...
But I would love hearing from other players who have played with it.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
For Punishing Fire versions:
1. You play Control against Miracles. There are three ways you can lose the game 1.
- The first is that they get Counterbalance out and you can't deal with it. So play enough Abrupt Decays. When I wrote the primer Miracle played only 2-3 CB so 2 Decays seemed enough. I would go to 3 now and remove a Fire for it. Probably also add this new GSZ disenchant, Reclamation Sage. CB needs to be kept off the table.
- The second way that they can win is with an unanswered Jace. You have to fight Jace with Fire and Thrun and Discard.
- The third way is a big Entreat in the late game. If you managed to keep CB and Jace off the table you should have been able to put a Deed on the table at some point and leave it unused.
2. To ensure that you can find the right answers Sensei's Top is the most important card. I think 4 copies of it in Punishing Fire versions is correct. I think even 3 is not enough. 2 is certainly not enough. Games 2 and 3 get much easier because you have REB for Jace and Slaughter Games for Entreat or Jace and maybe an additional Disenchant effect for CB and an additional big threat. But in G1 you need to spin the Top a lot to find your answers. Maybe this new draw spell (3 Mana draw x lose x) can replace a Top.
3. What you should not do is trigger Explorer carelessly. I always sided it out for G2 and G3, designing the SB to be able to do this is very helpful. In G1 it is half of the time better to sacrifice a Witness or a Huntmaster token to Therapy. Your hand needs to have a lot of gas if you commit to triggering Explorer. They have Brainstorm and Jace to shuffle away extra lands but you don't.
4. Liliana is great against them. She is not integral but she makes it easier to follow your game plan.
5. Time is a major issue in this matchup. Many Divining Tops and going full late game. Play fast yourself from turn 1 on and don't hesitate to call a judge on your opponent if he is thinking to long.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
For Punishing Fire versions:
1. You play Control against Miracles. There are three ways you can lose the game 1.
- The first is that they get Counterbalance out and you can't deal with it. So play enough Abrupt Decays. When I wrote the primer Miracle played only 2-3 CB so 2 Decays seemed enough. I would go to 3 now and remove a Fire for it. Probably also add this new GSZ disenchant, Reclamation Sage. CB needs to be kept off the table.
- The second way that they can win is with an unanswered Jace. You have to fight Jace with Fire and Thrun and Discard.
- The third way is a big Entreat in the late game. If you managed to keep CB and Jace off the table you should have been able to put a Deed on the table at some point and leave it unused.
2. To ensure that you can find the right answers Sensei's Top is the most important card. I think 4 copies of it in Punishing Fire versions is correct. I think even 3 is not enough. 2 is certainly not enough. Games 2 and 3 get much easier because you have REB for Jace and Slaughter Games for Entreat or Jace and maybe an additional Disenchant effect for CB and an additional big threat. But in G1 you need to spin the Top a lot to find your answers.
3. What you should not do is trigger Explorer carelessly. I always sided it out for G2 and G3, designing the SB to be able to do this is very helpful. In G1 it is half of the time better to sacrifice a Witness or a Huntmaster token to Therapy. Your hand needs to have a lot of gas if you commit to triggering Explorer. They have Brainstorm and Jace to shuffle away extra lands but you don't.
4. Liliana is great against them. She is not integral but she makes it easier to follow your game plan.
5. Time is a major issue in this matchup. Many Divining Tops and going full late game. Play fast yourself from turn 1 on and don't hesitate to call a judge on your opponent if he is thinking to long.
Don't for get Mentor and all those shenanigans. We do have answers, but that card requires them to be pretty immediate before we take tons of damage.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
Don't for get Mentor and all those shenanigans. We do have answers, but that card requires them to be pretty immediate before we take tons of damage.
Oh yeah, that is true. Mentor is a new card that I don't have any experience playing against.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Tsunami
2 Abrupt Decay
First draft of a white-based list (rhino centric) with an eye towards EE3 this weekend.
Nissa has impressed me as a tutorable planeswalker in Bring to Light in standard, and white fit lists have a tendency of going long enough to make her a possibility here. Plus: sun titan value.
Safekeeper may end up getting cut for a higher-impact card pending my local tomorrow. I've liked Safekeeper in conjunction with Sun Titan before, but he may not be good enough at the moment.
Abzan Charm > Truths when in junk. I'd rather have the flexibility -- I can path a Tasigur or zombie fish, but still draw cards when I need to. Or make a 7/7 sigarda.
Diabolic Intent is my 3rd Top. The idea is that it's a 3rd Top that is also a 6th sac outlet. Alternatively, sometimes it can bring together the rhino-nightmare loop. But mostly it's just a Top.
Ob Nix + Elspeths to piss off Miracles and other grindy matches. Ob Nix is on the chopping block if Nissa tests well.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I really like abzan charm. I think i will cut painful truth and replace it with charm. Which allows me to cut a path to exile.
Don't you miss spot removal like swords to plowshares or path to exile in your deck? (besides charm)
I feel like your deck is too heavy on the creature/walker side and lacks board control. But that's just like my opinion.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dadadot
I really like abzan charm. I think i will cut painful truth and replace it with charm. Which allows me to cut a path to exile.
Don't you miss spot removal like swords to plowshares or path to exile in your deck? (besides charm)
I feel like your deck is too heavy on the creature/walker side and lacks board control. But that's just like my opinion.
I focus on beating Miracles in game one. I don't like running StP/Path for that reason. Things like Charm, Decay, Council's Judgment, Pulse -- all of those are fine options, because they do more than -just- kill a bro. I might end up going -1 Safekeeper -1 Finks for +1 Charm +1 Council's or +1 Charm +1 Decay. My issue at that point is that GSZ starts looking lackluster -- before cuts, I currently have 12 non-Veteran green creatures to grab with 4 Zenith, which is a good ratio. Dropping to 10 makes Zenith look better at 3-of, and that isn't really where I want to be.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I forgot about Abzan Charm. Going to swap out the Truths for those. 1 less draw, but its at instant speed, which is huge. Reminds me of Esper Charm.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Went 4-0 matches / 8-0 games last night at the local. Beat Miracles, DnT, Imperial Painter, DnT. I cut the Safekeeper before the event for a Reclamation Sage, which was actually pretty good on the night. I also went -1 Ob Nix +1 Golgari Charm based on fear of Elves. Otherwise, I played the list as previously posted.
Snapshot notes:
Flip!Nissa was surprisingly very good. I put it in thinking it could be real in theory, but I wasn't prepared for it to actually live up to my expectations. It served a purpose both as a borderland ranger and as a Zenith threat lategame. Flipped her multiple times on the night, and she was consistently solid. I also got to flip her one game off of bringing a land back with Sun Titan, which felt real good.
DnT is a shitty ass deck when they don't draw Revokers in any game :D
Only drew one Abzan Charm on the night, which turned into two more cards against miracles. Didn't love the card anyway, but some of that the fact that I had three dead matchups for it (DnT x2, Imperial). Their creatures are too small to exile, and you don't need the draw 2 against those decks.
Slaughtered Imperial's Painters g2 on a mull to 5. Felt real good. Also won that game.
Elspeth probably isn't necessary in the sideboard. Bringing in Slaughters, Tsunami, and artifact/enchantment removal is sufficient for that matchup since the deck is already built to beat Miracles. Those two slots are probably going to become at least 1 DnT card, possibly two. I didn't like feeling soft to DnT -- if either of my opponents had hit a Revoker and backed it with a Mom, I would've been pretty far up shit creek with only 1x Golgari Charm as an out, which seemed pretty poor. I'm also cutting the maindeck Finks (still) -- probably making it a Council's Judgment.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Elspeth probably isn't necessary in the sideboard. Bringing in Slaughters, Tsunami, and artifact/enchantment removal is sufficient for that matchup since the deck is already built to beat Miracles. Those two slots are probably going to become at least 1 DnT card, possibly two. I didn't like feeling soft to DnT -- if either of my opponents had hit a Revoker and backed it with a Mom, I would've been pretty far up shit creek with only 1x Golgari Charm as an out, which seemed pretty poor. I'm also cutting the maindeck Finks (still) -- probably making it a Council's Judgment.
"Toxic Deluge" is a must as a 1-of or a 2-of depending on your list.
Some like it MD, other has a sideboard material.
I also like having a "grip" somewhere in the 75.
I can tell from experience that even if our deck is designed to "go over the top", BSK can be a f.ing nightmare (attached to an avenger for example). The corner case where you blow up BSK with deed/pulse/ what have you, followed by a therapy to get rid of it, is more likely than not a very wet dream.
By the way, how did you beat Miracle ? Sigarda + resolved deed ?
PS: Forgot about the abzan charms... Gonna test it to assess whether 3 cards > flexibility.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
"Toxic Deluge" is a must as a 1-of or a 2-of depending on your list.
Some like it MD, other has a sideboard material.
I also like having a "grip" somewhere in the 75.
I can tell from experience that even if our deck is designed to "go over the top", BSK can be a f.ing nightmare (attached to an avenger for example). The corner case where you blow up BSK with deed/pulse/ what have you, followed by a therapy to get rid of it, is more likely than not a very wet dream.
By the way, how did you beat Miracle ? Sigarda + resolved deed ?
PS: Forgot about the abzan charms... Gonna test it to assess whether 3 cards > flexibility.
Yeah, this is where I'm at after updates:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Council's Judgment
2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
1 Krosan Grip
Miracles was basically I just ground him out game one...rhino drains eventually piled up, and he spent too much time removing my threats. Nissa drew me two cards a turn for 3-4 turns, as well, before she got Council's'd. Game two I had Sigarda vs his Jace, Slaughtered his Terminuses, and he scooped.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Yeah, this is where I'm at after updates:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Council's Judgment
2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
1 Krosan Grip
Miracles was basically I just ground him out game one...rhino drains eventually piled up, and he spent too much time removing my threats. Nissa drew me two cards a turn for 3-4 turns, as well, before she got Council's'd. Game two I had Sigarda vs his Jace, Slaughtered his Terminuses, and he scooped.
Yeah, and if you had Teegs it would be even crazier. Unless they have really great sequencing of cards, we are pretty favoured. Recurring Rhinos is really hard for a lot of decks to interact with.
Are you not a fan of Volrath's Stronghold?
I would use Qasali because of the exalted usage, and the fact of freakin' Inkmoth Nexus :p
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Yeah, and if you had Teegs it would be even crazier. Unless they have really great sequencing of cards, we are pretty favoured. Recurring Rhinos is really hard for a lot of decks to interact with.
Are you not a fan of Volrath's Stronghold?
I would use Qasali because of the exalted usage, and the fact of freakin' Inkmoth Nexus :p
My issue with Qasali has always been that it doesn't leave the body behind, but costs the same amount of mana. In the abstract, I agree that Qasali is the better card -- but leaving the body behind for Therapy and Intent has been notably important to me in the past.
I don't even worry about Inkmoth Nexus -- if I run into Infect, I'm probably just losing anyway. Same philosophy I have with Reanimator. I prefer to focus on decks that are a larger meta share and require less than 10 sideboard cards dedicated to beat.
Volrath's has always felt very clunky to me. I prefer Nightmare for my recursion engine...and both isn't really that good, I feel. The other issue with Volrath's is that it's a colorless land -- our spells are almost always better than our opponents', so the only games we generally lose are those games where we don't get to cast them. I'd rather have the stronger mana base than the extra utility land. The Taiga is a necessary concession to Slaughter Games being a god amongst insects, but I don't really want another land that doesn't help pay abzan costs.
My issue with Teeg is mostly philosophical. I don't like turning off my own Green Sun's, and I don't like turning off my sideboard cards. I would rather have GSZ, Tsunami, and Slaughter Games postboard than just Teeg and -possibly- cut out some of their spells. The other issue with Teeg is that locally, at least, all of the Miracles decks are still on the Karakas package. Teeg might be a bit better in the wider metagame, but I still hold to that the 4-drop sideboard cards are stronger than sometimes denying some of their spells.
