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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
So you mean like Burn, Zoo, Goblins, and what else?
Last I checked Burn is just about the worst deck in the format. The deck loses to just about anything running blue in it (which is almost everything these days). Zoo has been more or less replaced from what I have seen by Maverick which doesn't run red at all except in some very weird corner cases. And Goblins while still viable is the only deck left in the format that really runs red and truth be told it would be better off filling slots with more goblins instead of direct burn spells for the purpose of killing creatures. Not to mention that for Goblins there are way better options than killing off Stoneforge Mystic (say for example killing off Mother of Runes while she still has Summoning Sickness).
So all told that takes care of the three primary decks in the format that run red. The rest are going to be so rare that you really don't need to sideboard against them unless there is a significant meta shift in your area in favor of those decks.
There is so much wrong in this post. Burn isn't the worst deck in the format, there are way worse decks and because it's cheap a high procentage of player plays it. And it doesn't lose against everything with U in it. Get your facts straight.
The Goblin deck doesn't run Lightning Bolt usually, but they run Gempalm Incinerator MB and Pyrokinesis SB. And you completely forget RUG Delver (was already mentioned by user above me), one of the three (arguably the most played) deck in the format.
Plus not all single target removal spells are R. There are so many removal spells floating around right now, that playing SFM with Batterskull without counterspells is risky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
you would board metamorph in against things like Iona, Griselbrand, and other large legendary creatures that you wouldn't normally want to hit with a swords to plowshares (or can't in the case of Iona), or which it is impractical to hit with slower spells such as Oblivion Ring or Mangara.
Phyrexian Metamorph, while good against Emrakul and Iona, just sucks against Griselbrand. Not only that you can't bring him in under Show and Tell, the enemy can even respond to him with drawing cards to counter him. Because of this I cutted the Metamorph from my SB.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
so you guys opt not to run what is probably one of the best card combinations this side of the format map, simply because you MIGHT get hit by a lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, or gempalm incenerator before you are able to play Batterskull off the back of Stoneforge Mystic?
Might as well forget running Stoneforge Mystic as anything other than a crappy tutor then since it obviously isn't good at doing anything else in this format. In fact why are we even running such a sub par card if all that is going to happen to it is that it will get burned or exiled by opposing cards? For that matter why are we even playing a creature based deck in the first place? Surely that is just asking to have our creatures hit by burn and removal and in the process getting ourselves 2 for 1'ed all over kingdom come.
Irony much?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
so you guys opt not to run what is probably one of the best card combinations this side of the format map, simply because you MIGHT get hit by a lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, or gempalm incenerator before you are able to play Batterskull off the back of Stoneforge Mystic?
Natural Order => Prog is one of the strongest combinations in format, yet it fell out of popularity because of metagame shift, new printings etc.
Best control-aggro deck now is UW(b) Stoneblade, but some time ago noone could imagine such kind of deck without Tarmogoyf.
I opt not to run Skull because your mystic WILL get hit with shitload of cheap removal and the tempo loss I explained will cost you games.
Also, if you're so inclinched to disagree, pelase explain why this strong combination (we all know it's strong in vacuum, really) is strong enough in this particular deck and is stronger than something else you could run in its place.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eq.firemind
Actualy, I was talking about Batterskull, not Mystic.
I opt not to run Skull because your mystic WILL get hit with shitload of cheap removal and the tempo loss I explained will cost you games.
Also, if you're so inclinched to disagree, pelase explain why this strong combination (we all know it's strong in vacuum, really) is strong enough in this particular deck and is stronger than something else you could run in its place.
okay, what other equipment in the game gives you a 4/4 lifelinking, vigilant creature just for being put onto the battlefield? That isn't even to mention the fact that it can be reequipped to other creatures assuming you have enough mana. Add to this the fact that this deck makes the Germ Token virtually invincible what with combination from Mother of Runes, and the fact that if the original Germ Token were dealt with you can simply create another by using Flickerwisp on the batterskull.
Further is the fact that to achieve all this you simply need to pay 2 mana twice. Or heck even better, if you vialed your Stoneforge Mystic into play, you only need to pay 2 mana once!
The problem you guys seem to be making of this, is that you assume that the Stoneforge Mystic is automatically going to be the first thing that is targeted, not other cards in your deck. For example, if I have a Mother of Runes in play alongside a Stoneforge Mystic, which would a deck with removal rather try to get rid of? The Mom, or the Mystic? I wager it would be the Mom every time. This is especially true for decks whose creature count is predisposed towards a single color.
The basis of your entire argument, henges on the fact that Stoneforge Mystic will be the only threat on the table. This is generally not the case. If it were, then why play a deck with so many threatening creatures? Heck why play Mangara of Corondor in the deck at all, he is just a flimsy 1/1 creature on his own. Easily susceptible to the very same burn, and other removal spells that you are complaining that Stoneforge Mystic itself is susceptible to. The only difference in the case of Mangara is that you can protect it in two different ways, via Karakas, and Mother of Runes. Why should it be so different for Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull? I mean yeah, you have 1 less protection card than you do with Mangara, but still thats the same number of protection spells that the vast majority of the cards in your deck are going to have (unless they are legendary creatures).
So the question I asked earlier? Why run creatures that are susceptible to burn and other removal at all? Seems to still be a valid question if your argument against running Stoneforge Mystic alongside batterskull is simply that it can cause you to get 2 for 1'ed via burn targeting the Mystic. Same thing can happen to just about every creature in your deck. It is logistically impossible to protect against every possible contingency. I just prefer personally to play superior cards instead of inferior ones. And it doesn't get much superior than the Stoneforge + Batterskull interaction.
EDIT: Also, the reason that Progenitus lost favor likely had a large part to do with the fact that Survival of the Fittest was banned. Not because the combo lost favor.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm actually on the no Skull train and here's why:
At the end of the day Skull is a dumb beater with lifelink. UWx Stoneblade runs it cause the lifegain matters. D&T is a whole different archetype though. Stoneblade has the tools to control and drag the game out to a point when hardcasting it for a resilient finisher is viable.
D&T's gameplan is quite the opposite. We apply early pressure - we're the beatdown with some prison elements. And that's where the pro Skull campaign fails.
Beyond Jitte, I'd run SofI, SolaS, SoBaM and SoFaF b4 that guy.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
I'm actually on the no Skull train and here's why:
At the end of the day Skull is a dumb beater with lifelink. UWx Stoneblade runs it cause the lifegain matters. D&T is a whole different archetype though. Stoneblade has the tools to control and drag the game out to a point when hardcasting it for a resilient finisher is viable.
D&T's gameplan is quite the opposite. We apply early pressure - we're the beatdown with some prison elements. And that's where the pro Skull campaign fails.
Beyond Jitte, I'd run SofI, SolaS, SoBaM and SoFaF b4 that guy.
In that order?
Oh and just to clarify for those of you that still have this hard on that Stoneforge dies to removal... I just checked with a friend of mine who happens to be a judge. If We Vial Stoneforge in at the end of their turn, and they don't remove it during that end step, then immediately following our untap and draw steps (basically during the upkeep) we are more than free to use Stoneforge's ability. And even if they target the Stoneforge with removal at that point we still get the effect of the ability, regardless of whether they have removal for the stoneforge at that point or not. So this entire argument that Stoneforge dies to removal is kind of moot at that point.
EDIT: Also I thought the "It dies to removal" argument had been antiquated by this point. Sad to see it still thrives in this day and age.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
Oh and just to clarify for those of you that still have this hard on that Stoneforge dies to removal... I just checked with a friend of mine who happens to be a judge. If We Vial Stoneforge in at the end of their turn, and they don't remove it during that end step, then immediately following our untap and draw steps (basically during the upkeep) we are more than free to use Stoneforge's ability. And even if they target the Stoneforge with removal at that point we still get the effect of the ability, regardless of whether they have removal for the stoneforge at that point or not. So this entire argument that Stoneforge dies to removal is kind of moot at that point.
Well, if you need to ask a judge about that, then most people here are probably more familiar with rules than you...
Also, in this format best removal spells happen to be instants and cost no more than 2 mana. And most people (your opponents included) know an optimal way to use Vial's ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
EDIT: Also I thought the "It dies to removal" argument had been antiquated by this point. Sad to see it still thrives in this day and age.
I failed to see "It dies to removal" argument outside your posts. Could you please point me on that?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eq.firemind
Well, if you need to ask a judge about that, then most people here are probably more familiar with rules than you...
Also, in this format best removal spells happen to be instants and cost no more than 2 mana. And most people (your opponents included) know an optimal way to use Vial's ability.
I know the rules fine. I just wanted to double check my facts. Sorry if I actually conduct debates intelligently and try to make sure I am correct about what I remember from about a year ago. Prior to this past Saturday I hadn't played a game of magic in about a year. That doesn't change the fact that when I see superior card interactions I recognize them for what they are.
Also, the most optimal way to use Vial's ability is to not leave the creatures you vial in after the 1-drop slot open to removal in the first place. Usually you vial in a Mother of Runes the very first thing you do after playing the Vial. That way you can avoid situations like getting your Stoneforge mystic removed by 1 mana removal spells.
Quote:
I failed to see "It dies to removal" argument outside your posts. Could you please point me on that?
What exactly would you call your entire argument against running Batterskull simply because Stoneforge Mystic "Dies to Removal!!!!!!!"
I don't know how else to explain your argument here. Anyways I have been up all night and I am growing tired. Time for me to call it a night.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
In that order?
Pretty much.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Pretty much.
so in a format with Reanimator, Dredge and Tarmogoyf, you would rate Sword of Feast and Famine as worse than Sword of Body and Mind?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
so in a format with Reanimator, Dredge and Tarmogoyf, you would rate Sword of Feast and Famine as worse than Sword of Body and Mind?
Actually I run neither. My equipment setup always used to be: Jitte, Sofi, SoLaS (sometimes in the SB)
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Actually I run neither. My equipment setup always used to be: Jitte, Sofi, SoLaS (sometimes in the SB)
I didn't ask what you run, I asked what you rated them as.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Dalkon: Did the deck you were playing have ports, karakas, and wastelands?
IF not, then that might be why you are missing the point. You may have reached 5 plains often enough, but if you are correctly using your lands as control, you really shouldn't ever have 5 mana (or 6 mana with a thalia out) to hardcast batterskull.
Instead of calling it an argument of "it dies to removal," try looking at it this way:
If she gets removed, you can still reliably hardcast the sword. It's not stranded. Also you can reliably re-equip the sword if needed. You cannot reliably do either for batterskull.
The swords are always useful in your hand. The batterskull is not.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Whoa, 2 h away and got shitstorm over here. I tested batterskull in 2 tourneys myself and i was really disappointed. Lifegain rarely matters, no evasion, and with thalia cost 6 mana to play. With porting and wasting its a really rare case to got 5/6 mana to spend on your main phase.
And if your opponent isnt really retarded mystic eats stop/bolt/dismember right away when you fetch batterskull. In good case you got mom to protect him but im not going to rely on that.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
so in a format with Reanimator, Dredge and Tarmogoyf, you would rate Sword of Feast and Famine as worse than Sword of Body and Mind?
None of the Swords are good against Dredge and Reanimator. The game's often decided before turn 4. Sword of Body and Mind is definitely a blank against Dredge, by the time it would be coming online it might be passable against Reanimator, I mean Feast and Famine gives them a discard outlet for fatties too, so doesn't seem much better. I suppose the biggest edge I'd give Feast and Famine vs Reanimator is Pro: Black to bash through Griselbrand if you don't have Karakas up.
Versus Goyfs, Nimbles, Knights, etc I think Body and Mind is fine yes milling can add card types, Threshold or more land but the Sword also provides a Wolf that one can move the equipment too post combat for a invulnerable blocker.
Sword of Body and Mind is also a beast against Merfolk and Jace/Terminus control.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I tried Batterskull for one tournament only, it was a small one (probably about 15 people or so). I was very disapointed with it, and I tried it when it was first printed and now with Thalia (as stated above) it's much much worse now than ever before. Yeah sure you CAN mystic it in play, but you can't rely on being able to do that against most match ups. Also as stated above you are, or should, be using wastelands and ports to stall them or lock them out of the game. If you are doing that properly, you won't have more than 3, sometimes 4 land open to do things with. I agree that Jitte, SoFI, and SoLaS are the best choices to play in the deck main, and maybe Manriki-Gusari in side for opposing batterskulls. Also if you're worried about life gain, you've got SoLaS for that and it gets you a dude back. The list I play makes the choice to further deny my opponent resources with 4 Leonin Arbiter and the only cards in my 75 that search are 3 mystics. Also if you have Vial on 2 and Arbiter, you are able to make your opponent fetch, resp with Arbiter, and the paid a life and sacked a land for nothing since most of the time they won't have 2 mana open to pay for it.
As for the argument about anti-Mirran Crusader, that's a personal choice the way I see it. I prefer it over Serra Avenger for the reason that if you are going to hard cast the Avenger you won't be able to do that before turn 3 anyway, and it also give you another reason to take your vial up to 3 counters for Mangara and Flickerwisp. Yes it gets destroyed by removal, but the same removal gets Avenger save Forked Bolt and it doesn't fly, but have pro green which with any deck that plays green makes the match up better. It blocks Goyf, Ooze and KotR all day and swings through Hierarchs and other such things. Put jitte on it, you get 4 counters most of the time, and double activations from the swords.
Here's my list for a reference and it's served me quite well:
My list is as follows
Main Board:
2 Burenton Forge-Tender
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
4 Risadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 PLains
Side Board:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Phyrexian Revoker
I've not played it for a couple months partly because of Massacre, and Terminus does hurt too, but if you play around them it's not that hard to still put up a valiant effort. Also I've taken a break to play another deck with all sorts of tricks in it to switch it up a little. I've been playing D&T exclusively for about a year and a half and it was hard to cut the 4th flickerwisp because of its potentally insane and game breaking plays (especially with vial on three and mangara) The Forge-Tenders I put in with the prevalence of red in the format recently and it also stops Progenitus in its tracks when you recur it with SoLaS. I've been thinking about giving this another whirl for the next Tournament I go to instead of playing MUD which I've played for the past 2 months or so.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of removal to, you know, remove things? Saying a creature dies to removal is like saying you can play an instant at any time--kind of an obvious remark, imo.
I too have found Skull to be lackluster in D&T, though I don't deny the sheer power of the SFM/BSkull combo. If we had the counters to back it up, I'm sure it'd be great in D&T--but we wouldn't be D&T if we ran counters.
And, sure, SFM is a weak 1/2, but she does so much for her 2 cmc: thins your deck, finds the right equipment to power up your dudes/protect them, gets that equipment around countermagic/Thalia, replaces herself in your hand so that you aren't losing card advantage; all in all, SFM is a brilliant card, perfectly suited for D&T. That's why I run 4.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of removal to, you know, remove things? Saying a creature dies to removal is like saying you can play an instant at any time--kind of an obvious remark, imo.
I too have found Skull to be lackluster in D&T, though I don't deny the sheer power of the SFM/BSkull combo. If we had the counters to back it up, I'm sure it'd be great in D&T--but we wouldn't be D&T if we ran counters.
And, sure, SFM is a weak 1/2, but she does so much for her 2 cmc: thins your deck, finds the right equipment to power up your dudes/protect them, gets that equipment around countermagic/Thalia, replaces herself in your hand so that you aren't losing card advantage; all in all, SFM is a brilliant card, perfectly suited for D&T. That's why I run 4.
Nobody is really saying "... dies to removal." It's just what one poster (now maybe two?) was assuming people were saying.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I play batterskull as my 61th card because sometimes its good to hit the 'easy button'...
Granted, I usually grab SoLaS with SFM, but against controll with a mother of runes in play? batterskul please...
Okay, batterskull can be overkill sometimes. In that case just grab the other sword... 1 card in a 60 (or in my case 61) card deck won't hurt you that bad... (then again, overkill is underrated)
And if burn spends a burn spell killing your SFM because you grabed batterskull... well that's 1 less to the head.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I wonder what is the matchup vs pox like.
The primer doesn't talk about it and I never played it before.
I'm by the way going to a tourney where there are plenty of and can't imagine winning without a fast vial
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
overseer1234
I play batterskull as my 61th card because sometimes its good to hit the 'easy button'...
Granted, I usually grab SoLaS with SFM, but against controll with a mother of runes in play? batterskul please...
Okay, batterskull can be overkill sometimes. In that case just grab the other sword... 1 card in a 60 (or in my case 61) card deck won't hurt you that bad... (then again, overkill is underrated)
And if burn spends a burn spell killing your SFM because you grabed batterskull... well that's 1 less to the head.
I'd fetch Jitte before BSkull anyday against Burn. Jitte has actually a chance of gaining life for you. BSkull is just bad in this deck, period. Neither this nor Maverick can protect SFM long enough for BSkull to be good, and that's why they've dropped it soon enough.
This deck is just Goblins in white. Play AEther Vial, mana-denial a bit, and hit hard for the win.
@thread Is Mangara of Conrodor really viable? I know that she can power out with Karakas + AEther Vial, but that's a three card combo that might work in 5% of your games. Otherwise, she's just a bad Vindicate that might not even be able to do its job.
Is this list viable?
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Jotun Grunt
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Cannonist
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
This is my latest list, and I'd like to hear some advice from pros here (please, don't say Leonin Arbiter is anti-synergic with Stoneforge Mystic, I know that).
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vandalize
I'd fetch Jitte before BSkull anyday against Burn. Jitte has actually a chance of gaining life for you. BSkull is just bad in this deck, period. Neither this nor Maverick can protect SFM long enough for BSkull to be good, and that's why they've dropped it soon enough.
This deck is just Goblins in white. Play AEther Vial, mana-denial a bit, and hit hard for the win.
@thread Is Mangara of Conrodor really viable? I know that she can power out with Karakas + AEther Vial, but that's a three card combo that might work in 5% of your games. Otherwise, she's just a bad Vindicate that might not even be able to do its job.
Is this list viable?
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Jotun Grunt
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Cannonist
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
This is my latest list, and I'd like to hear some advice from pros here (please, don't say Leonin Arbiter is anti-synergic with Stoneforge Mystic, I know that).
If you remove Mangara then you can remove Karakas too and then splash blue for brainstorm!
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
If you remove Mangara then you can remove Karakas too and then splash blue for brainstorm!
Not sure, if you're being ironic, but that's exactly what I did.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Not sure, if you're being ironic, but that's exactly what I did.
No, sorry. I was just trolling. But you let us know how that works out.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
by the way, you are gettin a really bad matchup in show and tell/reanimator like
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vandalize
This is my latest list, and I'd like to hear some advice from pros here (please, don't say Leonin Arbiter is anti-synergic with Stoneforge Mystic, I know that).
Then why are you running them?
Deck looks okay but with the meta trending towards RUG i wonder at the 4x revokers. That and the lessened grunt count and only 3 thalia in the whole 75 is concerning. My question: what happens when a threat (like jace) sticks? Fewer wisps and zero mangaras leaves you open to having no means of disposing of problems.
I don't always play mangara, but when i do i usually win regardless of having the lock. It has pulled me out of the fire too many times for me to ever consider taking him below 3. Vialed or cast, mangara is at worst a lightning rod and at best your opponents worst nightmare. It has killed ionas and chalices, allowing a timely swordsing and has served as a pseudo wasteland. He always trades favorably and is still obscure enough for cocksure opponents to ignore, until it's too late.
Tl;dr: mangara is great, why would you ever cut him?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vandalize
I'd fetch Jitte before BSkull anyday against Burn. Jitte has actually a chance of gaining life for you. BSkull is just bad in this deck, period. Neither this nor Maverick can protect SFM long enough for BSkull to be good, and that's why they've dropped it soon enough.
This deck is just Goblins in white. Play AEther Vial, mana-denial a bit, and hit hard for the win.
@thread Is Mangara of Conrodor really viable? I know that she can power out with Karakas + AEther Vial, but that's a three card combo that might work in 5% of your games. Otherwise, she's just a bad Vindicate that might not even be able to do its job.
Is this list viable?
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Jotun Grunt
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Cannonist
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
This is my latest list, and I'd like to hear some advice from pros here (please, don't say Leonin Arbiter is anti-synergic with Stoneforge Mystic, I know that).
Except Leonin Arbiter, which I wouldn't run, the lack of Mangara of Corondar does hurt, because we don't have removal for enchantments and artifacts. In combination with the good synergy with Vial, Land denial and Karakas he deserves at lest 2 slots. Flickerwisp is arguably best card in the deck and so I wouldn't run 3. The Thalia, Revoker and Jötun Grunts are metagame slots, so the numbers depends on the enemys you usually face, but the fourth Thalia synergys well with Karakas and gave you a better shot at beating storm, so I usually play the set.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
This is the list I am running in my local tournaments (16 man). I have gotten first place 2 out 3 times playing with this deck now losing to U/W miracles in the finals last time. Here is my list. This is tuned to the meta. So if you see something unusual about the deck it is because of the environment I am playing in.
4x mother of runes
4x phyrexian revoker
4x stoneforge mystic
4x thalia, guardian of thraben
4x jotun grunt
4x flickerwisp
2x mangara of corondor
4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x sword of fire and ice
1x sword of light and shadow
2x umezawa's jitte
4x karakas
10x plains
4x rishadan port
4x wasteland
SB: changes on what I see but currently is
4x faerie macabre
2x oblivion ring
2x ethersworn canonist
2x enlightened tutor
2x oust
2x grafdigger's cage
1x COP red
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Made 5th at Mythic Games with the following list:
Main
4 Mother of Runes
4 Aether Vial
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
11 Snow-Covered Plains
Sideboard
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oust
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
R1: Steve with ToporNought, 1-1-1.
Game one was a island, lotus petal (great, some storm deck, I think) and Topor Orb. I'm confused, until he drops two Phyrexian Dreadnoughts turn two.
Game 2 went to 47 of our 50-min round, with me hiding behind an ensnaring bridge until i dig up a karakas around turn 18 (not hyperbole). With mangara in play, I get the lock online, taking out the Topor orb to bring an SFM in, grabbing a SoFI. Next turn he plays anought dreadnought, and Trickbinds it--the first non-orb stifle of the match. I'm concerned now that he's going to use the stifles on my stuff...but he doesn't. He only uses them to play his fatties. I keep quite until I bust the bridge and let my crew swing in for 23. Next game went to turns.
R2: Zach with UW CounterTop (NOT miracles), 2-0
I had heard there was a countertop deck running about that had no miracles, and when Zach plays a turn-one top, followed by a turn-two energy field, I get giggly, and tell him that's he's given me Christmas early. Which he did--CounterTop (sans terminus/b-stroke) is probably the most fun I can have in Legacy. Always great grinds, and this game was no different. He gets the Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon combo online, and uses Curse of the Bloody Tome to start milling me, till about a third of my deck was in the yard. I revoke his top, Mangara takes out Wheel, Tome and Field, and Avenger+SoFI puts him down.
Game two he uses needles on my Karakas and Stoneforge, but he's unable to get a field up and Wisp+SoFI get there.
R3: Matt with Vidugiris' RUG Delver, 2-0 (!!)
Matt and I are friends and there's no deception on who's running what, especially since he helped me SB and saw my maindeck before the tournament started.
Game one he keeps me off a vial turn one, and his delver eventually flips. I play Thalia, porting him off green till he wastes, and trade an avenger with his delver...following up the next turn with a second avenger. I give her SoLaS, and she takes quarters out of Matt's life total.
-1 Mangara, -3 Revokers, +2 Oust, +1 Grunt, +1Thalia (only SB change I made a note of, probably because I wanted to extrapolate my mistakes.)
Next game my vial gets countered, but is followed by a second. Oust and Swords keep his dudes at bay, and I start porting his Tropical. He wastes my port. I play my second port, take out the trop, and again he wastes. Then... I top deck my third port. I don't think I've ever been so proud of my deck, and when I receive 2 wastes, which I use on his tropical and one of his volcanics, he concedes. Granted, he was at 5 life, as well.
play of the day: he goes to bolt my Thalia with a cursed totem on his board and a mom on mine. I respond with vial @ 3, bring in my wisp, take out his totem, pro-r Thalia and that's that. He admitted that was pretty damn cool.
R4: Louis with UW Miracles, 2-1
I felt like Charlie Brown this entire matchup--as in, perpetually punting it. I keep a hand with no Thalia, Revoker or mom simply b/c it has a vial. I managed to cling on for a while, but after he ultimates with Jace, I lose.
Game two I mull down to 5, finally finding a vial, thalias, a wisp and a single Karakas. I draw next turn... Karkas. It's a lot of frustration on my part, whileI struggle to remain a threat. His Banishing Strokes take out my vials twice, and finally the third one sticks, and Thalia,
Revoker (on Top) and Avenger join the party. I beat him to 13, and he concedes--this time, he claims to be one who did the punting. Again, the clock has us late in the round.
Game three Thalia/Revoker stalls him, while Avenger/SoFI gets the clock going. He takes out the avenger with STP, I play a wisp, equip L&S, and another swords. We go to turns when I play another wisp, go for the equips, and swing. We do the math, and he concedes to me.
R5: Draw into 5th place, and we split the prizes.
Notes:
Seems like I'm finally getting the RUG matchup, so I can stop complaining about it now.
I really like the 3-1 Revoker split. It was originally a meta-call, since Mythic is notorious for its density of Maverick players. But having the ability to say "no" game one was really nice, and I never missed the 3rd maindeck grunt--even in the RUG match. That said, having the third one game two was nice, as it shrunk goyf for a turn and traded handsomely. I think I'll be sticking with this array for a while.
Still torn between Bridge and Ghostly Prison. Bridge saved me, sure, but it's still a hard call in my books.
Miracles is still 50-50 imo. B-stroke is a pain, and the fact that it and terminus puts them on the bottom makes grunt less useful in this match. I think the key is early denial of mana/abilities, keeping them off , and using SoFI/SoLaS to gain advantage over them. I also sided out all of my STPs, which I think is the right call--I'd rather have access to more dudes and hatepieces than removing a snapcaster or clique.
Haven't seen much combo recently. There was SneakShow in the Top8, and I saw someone misplaying elves, but it's mostly mid-range decks, with some control. Maybe Combo's dead right now? I don't know, it could just be my meta. But it's been a while since I heard someone say "tendrils at storm-ten."
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Check out the 12th place list at GP Ghent.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...pgnt12/welcome
No Swords to Plowshares! Ballsy!
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pandaman
The decklist shows 56 cards though. :( ....So he probably was playing 4 STPs.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Haha, probably why I shouldn't read decklists before I've had my morning coffee.
Interesting idea, playing the 4-ofs, like quadlazer dredge. And I've been looking at Eiganjo Castle in my binder for ages with nostalgia, I used to use it in D&T before damage on the stack ceased to exist, when the deck played Mangara and Isamaru. But I dropped it when we dropped to 3 Mangara. Now with Thalia in the deck seems like a good time to think about bringing it back. I wonder how often he got to use it and whether it was worth it? Must test myself.
And the list played Batterskull. Sure to reignite the debate over it that has been going on in here. I would still play the usual Jitte, SoLaS, SoFaI though, being my pet deck, I just love drawing cards, returning creatures and killing weenies with that combination!
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pandaman
And the list played Batterskull. Sure to reignite the debate over it that has been going on in here. I would still play the usual Jitte, SoLaS, SoFaI though, being my pet deck, I just love drawing cards, returning creatures and killing weenies with that combination!
I completely agree, I love shenanigans, perhaps that's why this is my go to pet deck, followed by MUD...
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Hey guys!
First time posting here. I played a similar deck to the lists I have seen on here to 12th place at the recent GP Ghent, and I just read a couple of posts and figured I'd throw in my 2 cents on the deck.
First of all, the list!
4 Mangara
4 Mother
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
9 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
3 Gut Shot
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Oblivion Ring
Some general thoughts! The way I see it, this is not just some 'cute deck' that has some cool tricks to blow unsuspecting opponents out of the water. At its core, this deck should be labeled monowhite control. That's what it does, controls the game. One might think that being monowhite that would be a very hard thing to achieve, and especially the high creature count makes people think otherwise, but the way I see it, this is definitely a control deck. Having said that, in my opinion it is also one of the best deck (if not THE best deck) in the current Legacy format. This comes with a big 'if' though. It requires an able pilot. The skills you need to play this deck cannot, however, be learnt through just jamming a bunch of games and seeing all the interactions. This deck is not based on its own interactions. This deck succeeds because it can constantly adapt to the opponent's game plan, both from the start of the game (the overall strategy of his deck) and throughout the game, once it shapes into something different. That is why this deck is so great. Because it always has game, no matter what the opponent brings to the table. But it is an important realization to know that playing the deck actually means that (for the most part), we don't have a game plan. Our plan is to watch the other deck unfold, and then punish its weaknesses. Because all decks in Legacy have weaknesses (except, of course, this one). It is a format of glass cannons, mostly, and you might think this would mean a lot of combo, but in fact all decks, that do not play basic lands, have inherent weaknesses. As a start-off point, usually we can say that attacking the mana is our gameplan. But more generally, it is about blanking the opponents' cards, so that no matter how much time they sit around durdling with their brainstorms/Jace/Intuition/life from the loam/Ponder/GSZ, their cards will still be inferior to what is currently happening in the game. It is, however, important to keep in mind that we are talking about very small percentages, because this deck is so pilot-dependent that it is hard to talk about good/bad matchups.
The number one skill to have is to determine your role in the game. And I find that a lot of Legacy players have a hard time doing this, because they see every deck as 'their' deck. Their pet deck. Either one they've been playing for ages and know all the interactions in, or one they've seen do well and want to replicate those results. But acquiring this skill comes mostly, I believe, from playing different formats. Limited is a good place to start, because the roles shift so quickly in the games, and experiencing this over and over means improving one's ability to assign oneself these roles. It is not purely a question of aggro or control or 'racing'. Because of the nature of Legacy (unlike perhaps any other format), all decks are easy to hate out. You can build a deck to beat any deck in the format consistently (but, of course, lose to pretty much everything else), because of how fragile the decks are compared to the potent answers. This deck is built to beat the format rather than a certain deck, and that is why it shines. But of course, taking this line means having no 90% matchups, but always having something to disrupt with. And once you disrupt a Legacy deck's engine, because of the nature of the format, the cards become narrow enough that you can beat them with an M13 limited deck once the dust has settled.
With this deck, you get into a lot of situations of inevitability, where prolonging the game only means you get further away from losing. And it does so on so many different angles that usually, the opponent won't even see it happening (and THAT, is the real 'trick' of the deck). Equipment, Mother of Runes, Vigilance creatures, Mangara, Karakas are all able to 'blank' whatever the opponent is trying to do. I noticed there were some discussion regarding whether or not this deck (or iterations thereof) should play Batterskull. But asking this question is not so much about preference in card or how it acts in certain matchups, it is a question defining what, on a more general level, the deck is trying to do. I considered playing a Sword (of whatever kind) at the GP, but I do not see myself bringing it in against anyone (or fetching it out, for that matter). Batterskull prolongs the game, Swords do not. And with this deck, we are in the business of prolonging games! This is also why playing Jotun Grunt never even crossed my mind. It is card that gives the initiative back to the opponent I feel. Now the onus is on us to keep it alive (and utilizing it!), rather than where we want to be, behind the wheel adjusting the course based on our opponent. A Grunt that gets to smash for 16 before it dies (and that seems like a pretty good gorilla to me) is incredibly useless. This deck has little to no 'reach' in its traditional sense, because what are doing is crafting a board state that makes it inevitable that we win. An example of this is boarding Relics and removal in against RUG Delver (granted, the Revokers and Mangara are useless/slow, so it's not like we are sacrificing much). To help grind out a board state that makes it inevitable that we win. And why we don't just blow the relic to take 0 from a Tarmogoyf, but keep utilizing it's ability and slowly take control over the game. Cards like Daze, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, Ponder lose value the longer the game goes on, and our cards retain their value both early and late. And these types of cards are in almost all the decks in Legacy right now, and that is something for us to prey upon!
So this was not really card/matchup specific but more a general analysis of the mindset behind the deck. But even that is hard to define, as it shifts so ever gently through the course of the game, sometimes even while spells are on the stack! And why we cannot just treat this as a 'pet' deck and jam games until we know every Flickerwispable target in the format. We have to understand what exactly is going on in each game against every deck, figure out what they are doing, and figure out what, with the tools we have, we can do to disrupt that. And this deck is usually versatile enough that there will always be something to do. Why we play 4 of each of the cards that we want, because they are the best their is.
So I guess if you made it this far, you have probably forgotten a lot of it already so I'll just reiterate my main point: You are not trying to win with this deck, you are trying to adapt to whatever your opponent is doing to win, but you have to keep in mind that this can be both taking an active and a proactive approach along with making your opponent BELIEVE that you are taking one of those approaches, when in fact you are not.
And all of this is why Plains is clearly the best card in Legacy.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Hey Thomas. Congratulations on your performance in Ghent. It is quite refreshing to see a talented young player who actually "gets" the deck. I am constantly astounded to see just how poorly pros are at analyzing (and presumably playing)D&T. I cringe when I hear someone call the deck either white weenie (as Starcity has done on numerous occasions) or aggro. Finally, explaining the difference is so tiresome that I find myself no longer bothering to correct people.
The thing that some players have recognized is how the deck allows you to ply your play-skill to victory. We are used to hearing this about blue, and especially with the decision trees that blue combo creates. But the play skill D&T capitalized upon is your knowledge of how to disable the opponent's deck, rather than fiddling with your own. I think that this is a new area for Magic, as it does not fit neatly into accepted roles, with creatures doing the work of control. We call it disruption typically, but the deck tends to lose when it has to go aggro, so logically it is a control deck.
I disagree with some of your card choices of course, but that is minutia. Really top notch performance analysis.
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I know I would be interested in reading a tournament report. Hint hint.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I've been playing this deck for the last year, and I'm still surprised by how well it holds its own no matter how the format shifts(unless its all mono black)
my current list-
4 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 flickerwisp
3 thalia
3 phyrexian revoker
3 serra avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of LaS
1 Sword of FaI
1 Jitte
1 Butterskull
15 plains
1 maze of ith
3 karakas
4 wasteland
SB-
1 Thalia
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 COP: Red
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Serenity
1 O-Ring
2 Path to Exile
depending on who comes to legacy nights ill swap SB slots with 3 Leyline of Sanctity, 3 Leyline of the Void, or 3 Mindbreak Trap.
the black leylines and traps are great against people not expecting them from a mono white deck, especially if i win G1 and they don't have a way to remove them, or stop them. ill also occasionally run Wheel of Sun and Moon or Cage.
for a long time i was running basically the same list but with a slightly lower curve, -1 Flickerwisp +1 Jotun Grunt, before that it was kind of higher with Mindcensors and a third Mangara along with a singleton Stonecloaker. i found the Mindcensors too slow and i didn't want to rely on the Mangara combo so heavily, going back to a fourth Wisp has been nice since a lot of times he's arguably the best creature in the deck. also I'm lacking ports, i don't own them anymore, but will sometimes borrow 3, which i feel is the right number, the single maze has also been good, its one of those slots where its nice to know you have access to it. I've been thinking about adding 3-4 Arbiters lately since so many decks in my meta search a lot, and cutting to 3 stone forge, on the butter skull subject, its usually the last thing i fetch, Jitte usually being first, its the worst getting your mystic nuked and wasting your time getting it. the jitte is just easier to cast and better across the board, i do like to keep the skull in since its about the only decent thing we can show and tell/eureka to have a chance, also the paths will probably soon become condemns or something, since we should be denying mana. I've also tried Crusader to varying degrees of success, he's sick with equipment, but doesn't really do anything except beat, i have raced Progenitus's's's with equipped crusaders to great effect though. I'm open to any suggestions or new tech. and a damn way to beat the hell out of elves!
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Finn do you mind sharing your current list?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phrexian Revoker
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard
2 Oust
1 Humility
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Enlightened Tutor
That is from memory (I'm at work), but is probably right. I apologize for letting the OP get so out of date. I used to do a better job with it and with the Merfolk one. I have been fooling around with only two weapons in the main for awhile. I'm not completely satisfied but no particular build satisfies me these days. I have been kicking around the idea of flat out cutting Serra Avengers to bring the Revokers and Grunts to where they should be. I love them but the cuts are getting harder. They are the only critters left that don't disrupt. They are bad against lightning bolts and combo and hottest against Merfolk and Delvers. It's not a precise bunch.
