Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Same goes for more-obscure tech, for example Winter Orb. Let's face it, Winter RUG was a trash idea and didn't do what it was designed to (that is, beat our decks).

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Winter Orb is hardly obscure tech compared to Slaughter Games, and it's fantastic against Miracles. One of the best SB cards there is.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I don't agree with this "Because this isn't a common board plan, don't worry about it" mentality. It's still a match to be won or lost. Of course, you can't just change up your entire board to play around SG, but you should be accounting for it whenever you can. Same goes for more-obscure tech, for example Winter Orb. Let's face it, Winter RUG was a trash idea and didn't do what it was designed to (that is, beat our decks). But we should still be cognizant of Winter Orb being a possible SB plan out of RUG Delver decks in the future now because if we get matched up against a guy running this obscure hate we still have to win that round if we want to place high in the tournament. I'm not going to take the L and hope next round matches me up against a "stock" list.

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wOrb is arguably one of the best sb cards there is vs us, lol. I don't think you've played vs a good opponent on wOrb rug. Deck is a headache.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

*also if your land opponent sideboards into Slaughter Games, don't mind him. That is not something representive for any other person than him, and that card is just bad.

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I don't agree with this "Because this isn't a common board plan, don't worry about it" mentality. It's still a match to be won or lost. ... I'm not going to take the L and hope next round matches me up against a "stock" list.

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I occasionally play with Slaughter Games with Lands myself, as I often rotate between sideboard cards. It's an unusual card in the RGB-sideboard as it's not very good against anything else than Miracles, but I've always had succes with the card against Miracles by exiling Swords. So I wouldn't say it's a bad card in this matchup, basically you have no answer anymore to Marit Lage apart from Bloodmoon (the forced shuffle largely invalidates Terminus too). Against other (combo) decks, Lands needs faster sideboardcards though.

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Originally Posted by haxorz

what do you all think the right plays are here by both sides?

for starters, if we simplify matters by assuming the miracles player has infinite mana, it feels like bluffing by spinning top during the lands player's EOT but still leaving the 3 CMC card on top is the right play since it gives the lands player the opportunity to fall into our trap.

but what about the very basic situation of it being the miracles player's upkeep and the 3 CMC card is currently on top. do they activate top now or pass priority?

this is subtle, but a good point.

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To be aware that K Grip exists, that does not mean you should float a 3. Floating 3 Turns off Choke, Tracker, Grip. I've seen Lands player sometimes Grip SDT instead of CB. I wouldn't bother with floating 3 unless my lands' opponent gave me a specific reason; because you're aware that your permanents can be Gripped, that means you should play 2nd CB or 2nd SDT when you can.

I have been Slaughter Games on Entreat before. The issues is that the kind of player who actually bother with the card is just not the kind of player who would name an important card.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Of course, you can't just change up your entire board to play around SG, but you should be accounting for it whenever you can. Same goes for more-obscure tech, for example Winter Orb.

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This is a bizarre comparison. Slaughter Games is beyond fringe; I have not played against it in over a year. Winter Orb is a powerful card that I expect every RUG/Grixis Delver deck to have.

EDIT: And now I see that that the thread had spilled onto a new page and several other people already commented. Yay me.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

This is a bizarre comparison. Slaughter Games is beyond fringe; I have not played against it in over a year. Winter Orb is a powerful card that I expect every RUG/Grixis Delver deck to have.

EDIT: And now I see that that the thread had spilled onto a new page and several other people already commented. Yay me.

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It may not have been the best parallel, but my point is just because tech is rare doesn't mean we should automatically take the L; we should try to adapt to it (but not overhaul our strategy) if we anticipate it coming in because failure to do so may result in a loss.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

It may not have been the best parallel, but my point is just because tech is rare doesn't mean we should automatically take the L; we should try to adapt to it (but not overhaul our strategy) if we anticipate it coming in because failure to do so may result in a loss.

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You need to also be aware that anticipating something obscure isn't free. How would you suggest fighting against Slaughter Games if you think the opponent has it?

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

You need to also be aware that anticipating something obscure isn't free. How would you suggest fighting against Slaughter Games if you think the opponent has it?

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It's really the sort of card that you have to anticipate in deckbuilding with Baneslayer Angel or Gisela. I probably play 90% of my Miracles in playtesting (and so am about equally experienced with both 4 Mentor and more traditional builds), but I don't think that most Miracles lists can accomodate real workarounds to Slaughter Games beyond leaving more than one type of win condition in so you don't auto-scoop to it.

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Originally Posted by btm10

It's really the sort of card that you have to anticipate in deckbuilding with Baneslayer Angel or Gisela. I probably play 90% of my Miracles in playtesting (and so am about equally experienced with both 4 Mentor and more traditional builds), but I don't think that most Miracles lists can accomodate real workarounds to Slaughter Games beyond leaving more than one type of win condition in so you don't auto-scoop to it.

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Yeah, this is what I was aiming at for an answer.

Not quite Baneslayer or Gisela, but the cost of leaving in a suboptimal win condition vs Lands could result in a loss a lot more than anticipating Slaughter Games.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

You need to also be aware that anticipating something obscure isn't free. How would you suggest fighting against Slaughter Games if you think the opponent has it?

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Don't board out all copies of one card of an effect. Example: G2 don't just have Mentor or ETA as your only creature-beats wincon (I don't count SCM as a wincon against a deck with Pfire, though Clique might get you there if you play some number of Karakas), or don't just have STP as your only creature removal for Marit.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Don't board out all copies of one card of an effect. Example: G2 don't just have Mentor or ETA as your only creature-beats wincon (I don't count SCM as a wincon against a deck with Pfire, though Clique might get you there if you play some number of Karakas), or don't just have STP as your only creature removal for Marit.

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Great. So you're going to SB inefficiently because you think the opponent might have a fringe SB card? My point is. If you see a Slaughter Games G2, sure SB differently then, this shouldn't need to be said. But it's not something I think is worth anticipating if the likelihood of seeing it is incredibly slim.

'or don't just have STP as your only creature removal for Marit.' - you should be keeping Jace in vs Lands anyway, is there anything else people play that deals with Lage?

I play both Miracles and Lands and this is my two cents.

If you look at Lands sideboards as a whole, they have to do a couple of things. They need to:

1) Provide a pretty heavy assortment of combo hate, usually artifacts like Chalice or Sphere;
2) Defend against Surgical Extraction and GY hate, usually with Tireless Tracker but maybe Crucible or others;
3) Kill or play around Moons and Pithing Needles, hence Krosan Grip is usually there;
4) Diversify removal a little (often via Molten Vortex or Seismic Assault);
5) Depending on MD configuration, shore up the Counterbalance matchup so that it's winnable (depending on MD configuration)

I've got these roughly in order of priority (my opinion of priority, anyway).

Full disclosure: my particular sideboard for RUG lands is:
2 Chalice
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Trinisphere
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Boil
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

So now let's ask ourselves, what is the Slaughter Games player hoping to accomplish in terms of the deck's SB priorities? The card is clearly at its best against Miracles, and there's a slight utility overlap against combo if you can stay alive long enough to cast this spell. Sneaky Show is a very poor matchup, for instance. But at 4 mana you will also need an artie rock to stay alive, and if it's Sphere you've shot yourself in the foot. You might preemptively take out Surgical Extractions, but again at 4 mana that's a very slow and grindy plan that involves sandbagging Loams and whatnot while you wait for the Games.

The most natural card to compare it to in my list is Boil, the other 4 mana anti-Miracles haymaker with different splash damage. You still want Boseiju to turn on Loam and Fire against Miracles, and Slaughter Pact wouldn't remove that need. Plus Slaughter Pact might be great against 4 Mentor Miracles, but you are not guaranteed to play against that version: many people still use Jace and Entreat.

So from the Lands perspective, I don't think Slaughter Games is a worthy include because it doesn't solve enough problems in comparison to other cards. All variants of the deck have more sensible options. Even another Chalice or Tracker would be superior.

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Originally Posted by Lormador

So from the Lands perspective, I don't think Slaughter Games is a worthy include because it doesn't solve enough problems in comparison to other cards. All variants of the deck have more sensible options. Even another Chalice or Tracker would be superior.

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Whether SGames is playable in Lands, and how Miracles should play against it, are two different questions though.
(also, RG, RUG and Rgb lands aren't entirely comparable as they all have a different maindeck strategy vs counterbalance in Boseiju, EE/Ruins or main Decays, with implications towards the sideboard, (for example without Boseiju, Boil isn't worth it)

So while the card sees fringe play (and while it's discutable if it even should be played in Lands), at least two players recently posted here they lost to Lands playing SGames for Swords. At the very least, it's still an interesting thought-experiment how Miracles should handle a fringe card like SGames. The discussion was interesting so far, and hopefully not finished yet.

Just played Miracles for the first time at a $15 tournament, got the daylights beaten out of me, finished 2-2, but man, do I love this deck. I'm not sure if I like my current build though. I'm currently running the 19 land, 4 monastery Mentor decklist from Columbus.

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Originally Posted by haxorz

what do you all think the right plays are here by both sides?

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if i'm playing the mind game the furthest i've ever gone is spin eot spin upkeep and keep a 3 on top both times. but it almost never goes that far.

re: surgical, i think 1 is too few. 3 can be correct but 2 is safe. the card is absurd in certain situations and i dont think i would play without it

Hi, My name Is Angelo Cadei, maybe some of you will know me as one of the European team of ponder's miracle. It's the first time that I write on this forum, I saw a lot of players having problems with lands ;in my opinion that Is not a mu cause we will win in the 95% of the time, the 5 Is just incredible bad mulligans. (In 4 years I never lose in tournament and in test)
Normally I just side double wear//tear and one surgical instead of one force of will, one swords, one terminus. They simple could do nothing against us, we could easily deal with their combo ,we can find more counterbalance than their decay thanks to our higher manipulation and jace Is quite nutz. Our manabase helps too.

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Originally Posted by Wiky

Hi, My name Is Angelo Cadei, maybe some of you will know me as one of the European team of ponder's miracle. It's the first time that I write on this forum, I saw a lot of players having problems with lands ;in my opinion that Is not a mu cause we will win in the 95% of the time, the 5 Is just incredible bad mulligans. (In 4 years I never lose in tournament and in test)
Normally I just side double wear//tear and one surgical instead of one force of will, one swords, one terminus. They simple could do nothing against us, we could easily deal with their combo ,we can find more counterbalance than their decay thanks to our higher manipulation and jace Is quite nutz. Our manabase helps too.

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Hi Cadei!

Your advice will be highly valued here!

I can see your point of boarding simply for the lands matchups. Would you consider clique a good card to board in as well as it adds pressure and deals with the recurrence of loam.

Would like to seek your sideboarding choices (your decklist) for traditional RUG delver lists compared to the recent TNN winter orb RUG delver list.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Wiky

Hi, My name Is Angelo Cadei, maybe some of you will know me as one of the European team of ponder's miracle. It's the first time that I write on this forum, I saw a lot of players having problems with lands ;in my opinion that Is not a mu cause we will win in the 95% of the time, the 5 Is just incredible bad mulligans. (In 4 years I never lose in tournament and in test)
Normally I just side double wear//tear and one surgical instead of one force of will, one swords, one terminus. They simple could do nothing against us, we could easily deal with their combo ,we can find more counterbalance than their decay thanks to our higher manipulation and jace Is quite nutz. Our manabase helps too.

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If I don't play Surgical, would RIP do the job just as well?

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

If I don't play Surgical, would RIP do the job just as well?

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Yeah, it'll be a Krosan Grip target.

I don't like the way to side in Clique, it's true that can deal with loam, but if our opponent has not exploration in play Is too slow, He needs two turns each time to assemble the combo.in my opinion the cards we play maindeck are better than clique.

Obv Is possible to play rip instead of surgical. They could broke the enchantment, but the best thing Is that the comes into play effect does his job, play it or at the begininng of the game/ to remove an early loam/ wait a specifict moment when you can remove a lot of target.