Glad I have my 4 Korean Contaminations to make people's lives miserable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
Printable View
Glad I have my 4 Korean Contaminations to make people's lives miserable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
For the game company itself? Absolutely. For the players? No, not even close to the worst thing to happen to a game. Completely ruining the mechanics (I'm looking at you cascade) is much higher on the list, in my opinion. There is at least a passable argument in this direction by mentioning the creation of planeswalkers, which create a cards' worth of value or more every turn they stay on the battlefield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Most of my conversations have revolved around the homogenization of the format, not necessarily power level. Yes they were powerful cards, but they also made the practical card pool of legacy a lot smaller. Broken cards aren't just unbearable combo pieces; they can also be unbearable 'lock' pieces like Oko and Arcanist, where all you need to do is play some of the other best cards in the format (Brainstorm, Force of Will, etc.) and you have a deck that really doesn't have to work hard to beat most everything it faces. There is the classic paradox of legacy where it has one of the largest card pools but actually one of the smallest playable card pools. Any time that card pool expands more than it shrinks is a net gain for the format, in my opinion.Quote:
All the rejoicing around here over mediocre three-drops' and alternative-to-thousand-dollar-lands one-drops' getting the axe feels pretty contemptible in all sincerity.
BTW, the people you are referring to are the legacy community. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and figure you just meant the 'sentiment' is contemptible. I'm pretty happy to be a part of the legacy community, and regardless of your opinion on the ban announcement, these are the people that will show up and help shape that community.
I don't know, I think the "old" sort of conventional wisdom was that this would be the case, but really, bans are worse for players since you lose the ROIC on the cards you (might have) bought. Of course, if you never bought them though, that's a wash. Of course, the same ROIC applies to the company too, since what is printed is printed and you still need to sell it, but with all the market segments and factors going in to what drives the sale of sealed product, the drain on the ROIC is likely so diffuse it hardly matters much (at least, in this case, where the cards in question are from sets that aren't really "new releases").Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
So, I think this is, from a player's money perspective, a little worse for those who payed something like "top dollar" for the cards banned than for the company because I think recent ban actions have shown that people still bought/buy product. Erroding customer confidence seems to have minimal (if any measurable) effect at all.
What I think it does do it almost certainly lowers MTGO event attendance and (I guess) online sales? I don't know that we can really know what online sales look like though, but I do think it has seemed like most of the Legacy Challenges had less people than I recall in the past.
Yeah, I don't know what that person it attempting to get at. Bans are always double edged, they cut both ways, since powerful cards are "good" options to make decks work, but are also limit factors as to what else can "realistically" be played. I think it is nearly impossible to say exactly, quantitatively, what the balance is, but from an "interesting metagames are ones that are comparatively less notionally solved" than I think these bans are fairly expressed as being a win for Legacy players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
That being said, depending on someone's sentiment as to what Legacy ought to be, then that minor win might still be a net loss, of course. But then you weren't really too interested in what Legacy demonstrably is. A wholesale reframing of the Legacy paradigm really wasn't ever in the likely realm of possibility for this ban.
This seems like a bad faith argument. Snow was more expensive than miracles/standstill (usually 1 or 2 duals) and made cheap decks like d&t/burn/death shadow unviable. Rug did the same to u/r delver and moon stompy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
On a larger scale, bans don’t cause players to lose value overall. If the quality of the format (ie demand) is improved and number of legacy playable cards doesn’t change (supply) the overalls value of the legacy card pool has to increase. Card owners make money with bans if the interest in the format hasn’t decreased. For each person with 3 okos taking a hit, there are 2 people with mox diamonds, rishadan port,, guru basic mountains and fireblast, or an abyss that are suddenly more valuable.
Overall card owners can only lose money if the demand for legacy cards go down (format is shit so people like me don’t want to buy in, no events) or supply goes up (people selling off cards because format is shit, major reprints, COVID bankruptcies). These bans, for most people, make the format less shit and bring them back into the game =more demand = more value.
Cascade is annoying, but not as broken as casting miracles on a sorcery speed on my turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Yes; that's what I said. And you're right that the people expressing that sentiment represent the Legacy community, a community of which I'm also proud to be a part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
The trouble is that it feels less and less like a community as people get more gleeful about the hacksawing of each other's decks (through bans or rules changes), and the community feels more and more like a clubhouse as comparatively cheap paths to entry are cut off. I'm becoming more embittered with each passing questionable ban, and yes, some of that is directed at the community for its response.
That's true, but the card still allowed people to play control decks that otherwise were far, far out of reach. Sure, people may be playing a more expensive deck than other decks that are out there, but Snow and Delver are/were still less expensive than pre-Astrolabe aggro-control was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
For the record I support both banning dumb cards and reprinting the remainder to oblivion.
The poll from this thread has goyf as the second-highest voted card for a ban. Ha, we didn't know how good we had it. At this point I just expect WOTC to print some stupid format-warping card every 4 months. My IRL playgroup is almost permanently locked into playing tier 2 chaff because no one wants to practice with cards that we all agree should or will be banned. Really wish they'd revert to 2012 era design philosophy.
One must understand that Goyf is quite possibly the worst designed magic card of all time. It wasn't until September 2011 that it was first challenged (SCM printed). Goyf ruined the format for the better part of a decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
No one is talking about D&T. Isn't it a winner with these bans?
All I see is "random D&T" etc...
That's because people were running Ravenous Baloth in their GR Survival and Arrogant Wurm in their UG Madness decks before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The problem is more that it was so good that you had to run it - and this didn't solve the problem....and it really didn't solve the problem if they had any burn spells (not even allowed to block).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I really wanted Arcum's Astrolabe to be banned in Legacy, but I never expected it. I really like Oko and I'm going to miss him, but banning him is still the right call.
They are kind of stuck now, they cant un-print the cards they did, and I doubt they would ban them because consumers really hate when the power level is lowered. Its like when Patrick Sullivan made that rant about Ravenous Chupacabra in standard, that it was dumb design and the only reason it wouldn't see play is if even dumber stuff was printed (which happened). Turns out all that legacy has just been the dumping ground for all that dumb stuff constantly out-trumping each other as new stuff comes in. Creatures were mediocre before, but that didn't stop creature decks from being successful, now creatures are strong and invalidate so much stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
D&T has been unplayable for years but people still pretend it's good and by the sheer numbers some make it to the top 8. A huge part of the metagame is driven by one's perception and willingness to play a given deck, which explains why (for instance) Vintage was dominated by Shops for years yet most players would latch on their blue stew despite the bad matchup. So as long as people feel D&T or Maverick or whatever non-blue flavor pet deck of the month is playable, they'll show up and play it no matter how dire the conversion rate gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
The worst thing was the printing of the card. You're mistaking the correction for the bad act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Bad analogy / false dichotomy. You correct shitty game design from happening in the future by firing shitty game designers. But you can only correct shitty game design, in the context of Magic, that has already happened through bans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Putting that aside, this is not about punishment this is about rehabilitating the format.
Considering Tarmogoyf received the 2nd highest vote on this poll at the time, you can now pick up Tarmogoyfs for around $35/each after the most recent reprinting in Time Spiral Remastered. Is Tarmogoyf now an official 'budget option' in legacy? What strange times we live in.
(One year of power creep later) Wow, can you believe Oko used to be a good card in Legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
There are unplayable pet decks (traditional pox) but D&T post skyclave is not one of them. They just won another challenge Saturday. How many times does D&T have to win for it to be playable?Quote:
Originally Posted by chunderbucket
Tarmogoyf hasn't been good for years now and its replacements are far cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
No idea why that card is still $35 besides it used to be expensive so people don't want to lower their prices quickly.
The only strange thing is that a vanilla used to be the best creature in almost every format.
It plays a role in Modern, and is still the most efficient threat in a vacuum. A (typically) 4/5 for 2 mana with no other investment has value. If anything, the cost is probably appropriate now and was way inflated before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid
Wow. I stop playing and coming here for a few years (just circumstances! I still love the game!) and return only to discover that Goyf apparently sucks and Deathrite Shaman got banned (!?). I'm not surprised about Mental Misstep and Top, but... DRS? Wow.
Guess I have a lot of catching up to do.
It sure has been a trollercoaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen
Deathrite was fine as long as it was only played in Maverick, Jund, Elves and Nic Fit. It was when Grixis Delver started playing it that it got too good. Or, the Delver deck got too good. Then Grixis Delver evolved into Grixis Control, cutting Delver for Strix and making a few other changes, and those two decks ruled legacy until the Deathrite ban. Gitaxian Probe got banned at the same time, it was run with Young Pyromancer and Cabal therapy, usually, in Grixis delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen
TL:DR of the last 4 years: daze breaks any cheap CA engine, since it is so broken in the early turns and then engines makes up for its late game weakness.
Daze decks got TC, DRS, W6, Lurrus, Dreadhorde arcanist, and Oko banned. They also contributed to the bannings of probe and DTT. The above engines except for treasure cruise and lurrus were totally fine in the shells they were designed for.
Daze did not get those cards banned. Fetches got DRS and TC/DTT banned. Probe is a cantripping Lotus Petal that slotted into a Delver deck that was already getting double mana from Fetches once the delve mechanic was printed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Wrenn got Wrenn banned, Oko got Oko banned - end of story.
Fireblast dealing 4 and making 3 mana towards TC is a waaaaaaay better [incorrect] reason for TC being banned than Daze. Mana exploits are the most reliable way to reliably draw a ban...so until alt-casting Daze requires that you put a land *into* play [i.e. ramp], it isn't anywhere near the same level. It's not about one deck, it's straight-up mana exploits.
wrenn and oko were abusive. I don't miss those days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Daze is a mana exploit. In a format where engines cost 2 or 3 mana, daze on your spell snare targeting W6 is a better than a cantripping lotus petal.
Mmm....no. There is no play pattern that profitably beats turn 0 Probe Sea Therapy lose 2 cards (attacks 2nd player compensation mechanism of drawing an extra card) into turn 3 Gurmags etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Against Daze, every who builds a deck in legacy knows the way you construct to beat Delver is to turn all their land, Daze, and Bolt topdecks into dead draws. That is to say that you can actually pursue a viable strategy at construction and in play patterns. There is no such strategy vs Delver with a cantripping Lotus Petal (Probe).
The chance of having doubles in your hand is rather low. That is a 2 card combo that maybe puts you up 1 card if you have something to sac or the opponent is unlucky. Probe TES wasn’t tier 0. The problem was daze meant your pyromancer never dies without creating value, which makes therapy always a 2 for 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Absolutely everyone says that doesn’t apply when they have an engine on board. If they have a Dreadhorde arcanist you need to jam and hope they don’t have it, since the daze pays for itself every turn the DHA attacks.
Giving cantripping Lotus Petal was only a problem as it let Omni outrace DRS yard control in the race towards DTT and to an even greater degree, b/c it was given to a fair deck completely immune to being hated out by a SB card. There is nothing okay about a sequence that has no answer (turn 0 Probe Sea Therapy) into never losing to any SB card. Leyline of Nobody can cast Creatures was the level of nonsense they'd need to print to give people the option to just win vs Probe's worst offender.
Daze is not mana positive [it "exerts" a land], which is why it isn't in the same league as Probe. Daze is super annoying though, I'll grant you that...but it is very much beatable.
If Thoughtseize isn't doing anything wrong, Probe did nothing wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Incredibly correct and terribly wrong with but a comma between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Hmm, doing some quick math here, how many degrees of difference is there between 0 and 1?
Infinity? I think the answer is infinity.
So, I can't see how that comparison really works. Then again, I'm not a mathematician, so maybe we just could never know, :rolleyes:.
If Peek is unplayable, Probe would be aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Take a powerful card, up its power by about 30%, split it into two cards you have to have at the same time to get the full effect, then ban one.
Perfect.
The real issue is that Probe makes ALL your interaction better with information for free. Mana free, card advantage free, and gives NOTHING away. It makes your playlines apparent and makes your opponent play differently (read: less ideal for their game) and even that won't stop you from having enough information to decide what to do at that point to render even that line, all lines of play, ineffective. Pair it with Therapy and it gets increasingly better for you. If you also have a Daze/FoW, you've likely already won.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Probe is mana positive guys. See also the delve and threshold mechanics. Say it with me: cantripping Lotus Petal. All you need to know about Probe.
Zero mana look at opponent's hand for no card disadvantage is a miserable option to have in a card game, which are supposed (obviously subjective opinion but I think it's fairly important to most people's enjoyment of them) to involve aspects of hidden information and bluffing etc.
You can argue about the interaction of probe with therapy or delve or pif or whether having probe in your deck increases your win% more than e.g. daze or any other card but I think this is missing the point.
Thoughtseize / Peek are acceptable imo even though they remove hidden information in the same way because the chasm between 0 and 1 mana is enormous.
Well, ofc probe is good, top notch cards in tier 1 decks will always be "stupid good" tier.
The question is how good probe is, of course it's not black lotus level, but i would argue that it is better than any recently banned card but SDT.
So fair ban to me.