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So, 2 lists in the last SCG T8 played 23 lands, only 2 GFTT as removal, and 2 maindeck Jace. I think Jace is amazing in just about everything with blue, but it doesn't really aid any of the toughest matchups for TA, especially tribal. Then again, the high land count does help against Tribal. What do you guys think?
I have been playing Team America for a very short while only, and haven't faced a decent tribal deck with it yet - though I believe that the early free counters, free removal on their lords and a few Engineered Plagues from the board, it shouldn't be that hard fending them off? (I can see how Merfolk will give problems due to their evasiveness if this plan fails.)
@ Keys, IMO the SCG lists with Jace MD and 23 lands are built for the Team America Mirror. Jace -> Tombstalker. Having stalker bounced is the most annoying thing in the world. More lands also means less chances of getting screwed by wastes and stifles. I think these guys were preying on Drew Levin's prediction that everyone should play Team America.
In an open meta with more randoms, I'd rather have the standard build with -2 Predicts + 1 Hymm, + 1 Library. I find that getting to 4 mana and having the mana open for stifle way too difficult. 2cc spells are what this deck specializes in and it should stick to it. As for beating Tribal, my go to choice is Propaganda. Mana denial + Propaganda is just sweet. You can gum up the ground with goyf and fly over with a stalker.
I agree, the Jaces arent needed MD. U dont always have the mana to cast him while predict/extra hymns are very good cards that fit ur gameplan. I would keep the predicts though and probably cut a daze or stifle for the 4th hymn.
I agree that Jace is not necessary at all. He can be good of course but there are other cards that can do the same thing, sometimes better. Bitterblossom seems slow, though it is a tough threat to deal with, but I think you want something that gives you a little more velocity against control - either more discard like thoughtseize (also good vs combo) or dark confidant or something like that. Just make sure not to SB out too many blue cards. I highly recommend dispel.
The matchup against control depends almost entirely on how their deck is configured. If they are the typical control deck that is trying to have game against everything in legacy by having multiple colors and high casting cost spells, it's pretty good. If they are only trying to beat linear aggro and therefore they just run twice as many removal spells as you have creatures, it's pretty much hopeless. Something like monoblack control would be a case where jace would help by not being a creature. But most people don't play that deck.
The extra lands for the mirror thing actually makes sense, I couldn't figure out why they would run so many lands in this deck. My biggest fear is always getting landflooded when I play it. Still doesn't seem worth it for the overall metagame, but if you just want to beat the mirror it's reasonable.
In my slim experience of 73 games with the deck (I keep track of testing in excel...) I wouldn't want Jace in the main. It's very powerful but takes 4 mana - which is another reason why the extra lands are in the versions that run it - and doesn't seem to mesh with the fast, tempo, aggressive game plan.
But, who knows what I know. I've been playing Legacy for 2 months after an 8 year break from this game :laugh:
I'll be playing this deck in local tourneys saturday and sunday. I'll let you know how it goes. In the meantime I'm trying to construct a sideboard. The maindeck I'm running is pretty standard (4 of all the staples, 2 snuff out, 2 go for the throat, 1 library, 2 engineered explosives). I've analysed the sideboards of the top 8 decks from the last 3 scg tournies and here's what I'm coming up with:
6 additional removal (consuming vapors, smother, ghastly demise, snuff out, perish, darkblast, maelstrom pulse, diabolic edict)
0-3 graveyard hate (nihil spellbomb, relic of progenitus, tormod's crypt)
2-3 krosan grip
0-2 jace, tms
0-2 situational counters (spell pierce, dispel)
0-4 engineered plague
1-4 catchall answers (engineered explosives, pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, pernicious deed)
It seems that 2 Krosan Grip and 6 removal is a consensus so I'll start with that. This leaves 7 slots for 1 Jace (only have 1, could get a second if really necessary), 2 Spell Pierce (prefer it to Dispel), also I expect a lot of Merfolk so I was thinking of running 2 Llawan and 2 Engineered Plague to finish the sideboard instead of more removal like needle, deed, etc. Maybe I should forego Plague and run 1 Deed 1 Needle? I'm skipping the graveyard hate as I always run it and didn't side it in the last 5 tournaments.
So how does this look? Keep in mind I'm expecting a lot of merfolk, show and tell or natural order decks, some random combo (storm, painter, etc.)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Consuming Vapors
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Llawan Cephalid Empress
2 Engineered Plague
Thanks for any help or comments!
If you are expecting Merfolk, I don't think E.Plague is ideal against them - they are lord heavy, plague is good against other tribals but I would much rather have an additional explosives out of the board than Eplague. And personally, I wouldn't be a fan of Llawan against Merfolk - they run wastelands and you are 100% nonbasics - and I generally cut Stifle vs merfolk because it doesn't do all that much against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamussels
And make sure you actually know what you're exchanging... no sense having the "right number" of each type of sideboard card if you don't also have the right number of cards to cut.
My two cents, may be worth more like one cent.
Three cards which can deal with Merfolks other Llawan (that seems to be the best option), are:
- Wash Out: is a cc 3U Sorcery that does the same effect as the Cephalid Empress.
- Mutilate: is a cc 3B Sorcery that gives -X/-X to all creatures where X is the number of Swamp we control.
- Riptide: is a cc U Istant that taps all the blu creatures.
I didn't test them yet, probably soon, but definitely i would prefer Llawan in conjunction with E.E. to destroy any Aether Vial on the board.
If you are awared of Merfolks in your meta you can put in SB any of these cards in 3x switching them as below and renouncing for a copy of Engineered Plague that isn't usefull.
2 x Mutilate
1 x Llawan (only one because is legendary)
I would end up as this. My 2 €/cent :)
Mutilate is 2BB, not 3B.
Realistically Llawan is one of the better hate cards against them, as it doesn't have the inherent weakness to Spell Pierce. I wouldn't play the other two cards, though.
I have some extra spot removal but I'll be taking a closer look at the Merfolk matchup (by far the worst matchup for this deck) as SCG Atanta gets closer (2 weeks).
Another card I was thinking about against Merfolk is Pernicious Deed, since it wipes their whole board including Vial. They usually overextend so it could be devastating against them. It will take 2 turns to setup though... Might try that instead of Engineered Plague.
Played Team America in a local tournament today. Didn't know how many players were there and we were kind of late due to traffic jam, so we missed the first round. After that I only lost against Rock and won against Dragon Stompy, UWB CounterTop Walker and BitterStalker.
This was my list:
//Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
//Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
4 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force Of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Preordain
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Sylvan Library
//Sideboard
3 Bitterblossom
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Smother
4 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
The list was awesome. Darkblast was the shit. Sadly, I didn't draw Sylvan Library once. Bitterblossom from the board was pretty strong as well, it won me several games. It really helps a lot to be able to increase the deck's threat density against decks with blue, especially since Bitterblossom is really hard to deal with. Jace most likely wouldn't have won the games I won via Bitterblossom, at least the last game of the tournament against UWB CounterTop. I also brought against Dragon Stompy, where it won a game as well. The only thing I noticed is that there are quite some Tombstalkers running around as of lately, so I might add one or two Go For The Throats for future events.
So I did run the deck to 2 local tournaments this weekend. Got destroyed in the first one, but played it again and split the finals in the second one :) Not the easiest deck to pick up and play. Played the mirror match twice and the 2 darkblasts in the sideboard were really good there to make my creatures win all the time. The deck was good against combo like it's supposed to and I even beat G/W creatures/equipment deck thanks to Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed in the sideboard. I'd do a mini-report but nothing interesting happened strategy-wise that hasn't been said yet in this thread.
So I'd say my most useful SB cards were 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Darkblast, 1 Pernicious Deed. Also had 1 Consuming Vapors, 2 Ghastly Demise and 1 Jace that didn't do anything special when boarded in (one guy sided in a white Leyline so Consuming Vapors was actually a dead card). Never had to use Krosan Grip and Nihil Spellbomb as usual, and didn't face merfolk so the Llawan were useless as well. I'd probably play the same maindeck again (normal list with 2 Go for the Throat and 2 Snuff Out), maybe have more Deed and some Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom in the sideboard, or a Perish since it kills Progenitus.
What are opinions on Mind Harness in the board?
Edit: I've been messing around with it on MWS, and against the mid-ranged decks that run goyfs/knight/etc it's flat out won games. I'm not sure if it's better than other options though.
Mind harness is a good card at all, but unfortunatly is specific for red/green creatures. This means we will have a sideboard dedicated to be strong against a single kind of deck (G&R) which are not the worst MUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUMBLES
In addition 3 cards on 15 are a lot.
I'd prefer to build the side to be more general as possible, avoiding loss of spaces for specific threats instead of more generic responses.
My current sideboard is this:
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Consuming Vapors
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Nihil Spell Bomb
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Perish
Probably i will switch the single Perish with another Consuming Vapors and maybe substitute the Engineered Plague and a Maelstrom with 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress. I need to test.
My 2 €/cent.
Perish kills Progenitus, which Consuming Vapors won't always do... think I'd rather have one of each than 2 4 CC removal spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanzorg
Does Team have a weak matchup versus other tempo/midrange decks? I ask because a good portion of my meta is Junk/Excalibur/Bant, so I'm wondering what I might need to shore up those matchups.
This is my current idea for a list:
Creatures (8):
Tarmogoyf x4
Tombstalker x4
Spells (32):
Force of Will x4
Daze x4
Stifle x4
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Go for the Throat x2
Snuff Out x2
Engineered Explosives x2
Hymn to Tourach x4
Jace, The Mind Sculptor or Predict x2
Land (20):
Misty Rainforest x4
Verdant Catacombs x4
Underground Sea x4
Tropical Island x3
Bayou x1
Wasteland x4
Also, any SB suggestions for the aforementioned decks?
Yes Perish kills Progenitus.
Perish is good against any kind of GW Maverick (NO+Prog / PW) whom are spreading a lot here in Italy.
Perish is also good against aggro / combo Elves and for removing Gaddock Teeg altought i'd prefer a spot removal instead.
Definetely is usefull to stopping the race of early-mid game aggro.
But it has a cost: kills our Goyf also and dosn't kill Merfolks.
Instead Consuming Vapor ,despite the fact that is a sorcery, is good against this last MU which is our first nemesis. in fact it annull the ability of Kira, Glass Spinner and reduces the pressing of its race.
So i'd like to put them in 2x.
Maybe it could be usefull also in mirror.
Anyway probably you're right 1 of them is already good. Keep that slot for others things. ;)
The only slot in doubt is the double Nihil Spellbomb against GY. Dredge would be keep with explosives and pierce i presume. Is so necessary to dedicate 2 slots for it? Probably i will change them with 2 Pithing Needle which are always usefull.
My 2 €/cent.
Hey guys. I'm currently working on a list. I will post it up after I get some testing done. I do have a question while constructing this. Is it just not possible to play Thoughtseize? It seems real good, but I know the list is very tight. I'm basically running Dans list from dc w/ 2 tweaks. I cut one ponder ( i know) for another library. I think the card is almost just good in the long run plus its a pet card of mine. and i cut one fetch for another bayou. can i cut predict for thoughtseize? or is there anything else?