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Originally Posted by
anakyn
Btw my logic was NOT to compare Chalice vs Pierce for every matchup, and neither to say Chalice is better vs every combo (I pointed out which combo decks suffer Chalice), but to identify which are the decks they are better against.
Doing that, we can choose which one to pick depending on meta.
Unless you think Pierce is "generally better" than Chalice (but that's probably your exact opinion), choosing the first or the latter is related to the meta we expect to meet.
I know that's what you're pointing out. To an extent, I agree, that's why I said Chalice would be against specific matchups in which you want to optimize your wins, such as RUG or Burn. I just don't agree with having to do that when you can beat RUG just fine with other sb options that have broader applications to other matchups (like Relic against RUG, not Pierce). I wouldn't go out of my way to run SB cards specifically for Burn since I consider that deck to be such a minority, but if that's your meta sure, then I can understand you wanting to run Chalice... but it is just one deck that you're able to beat anyway.
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I won't use Chalice in a control-full meta, that's for sure.
And I'm not gonna use Pierce in my meta full of RUG / Combo as well as some Burn (I don't even agree on considering Burn a favorable match-up... unless we have a really nice hand/draws, they are gonna deal 20 dmg faster than us).
Because Burn can kill on turn 3 with a fast hand? I never said the matchup was favorable. Burn comes down to who has the better hand and who makes the least number of mistakes. It's somewhere in the middle. Why go out of your way to one-side such an irrelevant matchup? I mean, if that's your meta, then I guess you might as well make it favorable with certainty, but I don't know, personally I would rather leave it up to chance and work on what I believe are more important matchups like Miracles or Omni-Tell.
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(about Metamorph: yes, you can't use them like Oblivion ring on Show and tell cast, but you can play it the very next turn to destroy their fatty, and I prefer it to O-ring cause it's more versatile in an Affinity build since it can copy artifacts).
This is comical. So tell me, if Show and Tell has the permission to counter my Spell Pierce like you say, what makes you think they won't have that same permission to counter your Metamorph? If they SnT a Griselbrand, you think your Metamorph 1) is going to resolve after they draw 7 in response and 2) is going to be going to be relevant if they draw another Show and Tell? Or tell me, how reliable is the plan to cast Metamorph after your SnT opponent has put down Omniscience and just kills you that same turn because you put down nothing relevant from the Show and Tell?
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And yes, Chalice is a house vs Storm, it definitely is. Miles better than Pierce in that match-up imho.
(to be more accurate about this: Chalice better than Pierce in a deck which can run only 2-3 Pierces as permission; Pierce would probably be better if we could run Forces / Dazes along with it)
I never said Spell Pierce made storm combo a positive matchup. It doesn't matter if you run Pierce or Chalice against storm, as they will still win. It's our absolute worst matchup. What's your storm matchup like? Do you face competent storm players, because I would find it very laughable to see a skilled Storm player lose to an Affinity player with Chalice when they can easily remove it or play through a Chalice set a X=0 with a Past in Flames kill. Or just make you discard Chalice. Or just kill you before you have a chance to cast Chalice at X=1. I am in need of some enlightenment on how Chalice makes your storm matchup favorable.
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One thing I don't understand is when you say "I won't allow Miracle" to have 3 mana for their Terminus... well, it doesn't really depend on you, you know.
Because I don't think you are running Wastelands or other forms of land disruption... so it really depends on them and their luck and skill.
If they are so unlucky not to draw at least 3 lands in time (which in unlikely, as they run at least 22-23), or they are so impatient to cast Terminus on 2nd/3rd turn, then Pierce is nuts. But does that happen so often, considering in a tournament you shouldn't meet unskilled opponents?
I thought I spelled this out when I said I apply too much pressure against Miracles for them to just sit back and wait to have two mana leftover for Pierce. If a Miracles players waits on a Terminus they were able to cast, then I get a free combat step. Also, any control deck with 22-23 lands is going to have some consistency troubles of making every land drop without card manipulation, especially if said control players have to use that card manipulation to prioritize putting removal on the top of their library to draw it.
It seems to me that you're just thinking one-dimensionally about Spell Pierce vs. Terminus and you seem to believe Miracles is a super-consistent deck that always draws both its removal and its lands at the perfect time. Do you want to face me with Miracles on MWS and I'll play my Affinity build? That way, you can see for yourself how often you can comfortably ignore my Spell Pierce while I threaten you for lethal by turns 3-4? PM me if you're interested.
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You pointed out that both Chalice and Pierce die to counterspells (and to discard, I wanna add), which is true.
Then you pointed out that Chalice dies to removal, unlike Pierce, and that's true as well.
But you forgot something: Pierce also dies to "2 mana open opponents", and Chalice doesn't.
Very astute observation. I didn't know my opponent could pay 2 to prevent my Spell Pierce from countering their spell, even if they didn't have two leftover mana to begin with, despite the fact that I opportunely played Spell Pierce at a pivotal point of the game where resolving it would give me a significant advantage. Thanks for letting me know!
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And another thing: Pierce is a reactive card, while Chalice is proactive (you don't have to play it "in response" to something). I think proactive cards fits better a proactive deck like Affinity.
You can call it philosophy, but imho it's not. Every deck has its style of play and imho we should play accordingly.
Like I said before, I normally prefer proactive solutions. With the exception of Spell Pierce, every SB tech I run is a proactive solution to any of my matchups. However, Spell Pierce is such a strong exception. Wizard Replica is the closest proactive equivalent of Spell Pierce that fits the theme of Affinity, but it is far too slow to be considered a serious choice.
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The point about Decay is true as well, but that becomes relevant only when facing BUG decks (and some ANT/TES, unfortunately for us), and I don't use Chalice in that matchup.
Against ANT I would definitely use Chalice @ 1 and hope they don't have Decay in hand (post-SB of course, as they never play Decay MB), because at that point they can't even play Brainstorm / Ponder to search for it. Anyways, if ANT/TES player has to Decay it, he just lost a turn for doing that and I can profit from it.
"Hope," because that's always worked against storm :rolleyes: Anyway, see my response ^ about storm earlier in this post.
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Anyways, I don't pretend to be right, neither to state Chalice > Pierce on every occasion and meta.
Same here.
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As I said many competitive Affinity lists run Pierce (did you find some on TC Decks?), so it must be good.
Yes, I did. I mentioned in my last post (as an edit), but I remember looking at a list that had 3 SB Spell Pierces which inspired me to try them. Again, I've been advocating Spell Pierce for what feels like a long time it sometimes feels like I'm the only one who ever thought of the card.
