[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by k2thej

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

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Yes. The Source has been super glitchy lately. It doesn't update the latest poster, and it has been double-posting a lot

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Originally Posted by k2thej

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

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Yes. The Source has been super glitchy lately. It doesn't update the latest poster, and it has been double-posting a lot

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Originally Posted by k2thej

@Darklingske- I have both the wish build and pure combo that I am testing. I do not think I want VV MD right now, but I am testing both to see which SB plan is better.

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

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I have the same problem... First I thought it was my browser bugging on me and cleaned out all cache... But it's the forum that has problems updating... So you're not the only one. :)

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Originally Posted by k2thej

@Darklingske- I have both the wish build and pure combo that I am testing. I do not think I want VV MD right now, but I am testing both to see which SB plan is better.

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

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I have the same prob, when I enter the site I see there are new posts, but then i click on Established decks and I dont see them. For example I see there is a page 58 in this thread, but it wont load the next page... VERY FRUSTRATING!

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Why do you have two win conditions?

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Because mirror entity is tutorable, and it's the greatest aggro option we have.
Why do you run Joraga Warcaller k2thej ??

Responding at the same time to TossUsToLions. I used to laugh at Zoo's thanks to Mirror entity when I ran Chord of calling, because even if they sword, path it, the ability is until end of turn opposed to Joraga Warcaller.
Without Mirror entity I've realized that facing some removal-aggro decks has become a little more of a problem, but they are still very winnable and really aren't that big of a problem as CB/Top, 4 color, other super control decks.

To Catmin: I will test the thougtseize MD, but although it might be just what we need against some matchups, I will be a wasted or stupid stop against many others... :S

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Why do you have two win conditions? I know this has been said before but It's a wasted spot to have 2 wincons, especially 2 MD.

The possible exception is VV because VV can win when your combo is stopped, so it is a very different wincon (which I still think takes away from the main combo), but that argument aside, it is surely a waste to run two wincons that both depend on comboing to work.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Why do you have two win conditions?

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Because mirror entity is tutorable, and it's the greatest aggro option we have.
Why do you run Joraga Warcaller k2thej ?? He basically is a Win con.

Responding at the same time to TossUsToLions. I used to laugh at Zoo's thanks to Mirror entity when I ran Chord of calling, because even if they sword, path it, the ability is until end of turn opposed to Joraga Warcaller.
Without Mirror entity I've realized that facing some removal-aggro decks has become a little more of a problem, but they are still very winnable and really aren't that big of a problem as CB/Top, 4 color, other super control decks.

To Catmin: I will test the thougtseize MD, but although it might be just what we need against some matchups, I will be a wasted or stupid stop against many others... :S

Has anyone tested Autumn's Veil before comboing? It is an idea I have been tossing around as an anti FOW card. Being that Go for the Throat is becoming more popular with the Team America deck along with other black and blue removal.

Has anyone tested Autumn's Veil? It is a card i have thought about adding; would be a nice play before comboing and with Go for the Throat and Doom Blade becoming more popular with the Team America deck.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Why do you have two win conditions? How many people can actually stop storm? And of those people, how many can then win before you aggro kill them the following turn with all the elves you just dropped? I know this has been said before but It's a wasted spot to have 2 wincons, especially 2 MD.

The possible exception is VV because VV can win when your combo is stopped, so it is a very different wincon (which I still think takes away from the main combo), but that argument aside, it is surely a waste to run two wincons that both depend on comboing to work.

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Thanks for the good insight. But still, how do I deal with Mono Black Control or any variants for that matter?

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Originally Posted by k2thej

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

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I'm having some sort of simular problem. I post, get an error report, post again, get another error report from the server. Leaving the site and coming back and suddenly my posts are here. Both. And what you described, I encountered also a few times. Quit annoying.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

I didn't say always but it sure is the vast majority of the time (80-85%).

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K2thej: How does your magic goldfish work to combo ~80 within the first 3 turns?
... a simple MWS analasys shows that you draw glimpse only a little more that 50% of the time by Turn 3. But that does not discount the times you cannot combo because of other reasons.

I don't want to say that you are not a competent player, but you got to be more realistic about what is the truth about the strength of the combo...

..double post...

@Nihil- Joraga has all the advantages of a lord without any of the disadvantages to comboing. He is a one drop that keeps glimpse going just like any other elf, but when you need to you can bounce him back with symbiote and recast him with all the extra mana you have to make your dudes huge. With regards to which card can help both combo and aggro options the most at the same time, no one comes close to warcaller.

@catmint- You don't have to have glimpse in your hand to combo by turn three. If you cast a regal force by turn three you will usually combo as well, so add those times in. then factor in all the extra cards you see with symbiote/visionary to see either a glimpse, pact or regal force to combo. It really isn't unrealistic, there are so many ways to get card advantage besides glimpse so the analysis shouldn't lead you to believe that just because you don't have a glimpse you won't combo by turn 3.

@Unemployer- MBC is a tough matchup if they run a lot of discard. Usually though, they have an explosive first few turns and then lose steam. they don't have a lot of card advantage so eventually you should be able to build up enough of an advantage to combo even with their discard. It will certainly be much slower but it can be done. MBC is my other favorite archetype besides elves so I play MBC against some friends playing elves a lot, and it's def not an easy win for MBC. If elves can last to the late game they usually win.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

@catmint- You don't have to have glimpse in your hand to combo by turn three. If you cast a regal force by turn three you will usually combo as well, so add those times in. then factor in all the extra cards you see with symbiote/visionary to see either a glimpse, pact or regal force to combo. It really isn't unrealistic, there are so many ways to get card advantage besides glimpse so the analysis shouldn't lead you to believe that just because you don't have a glimpse you won't combo by turn 3.
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if you cast a visionary in turn2, you have 1 card more. Calculate how mauch that increses the chance to draw a glimpse!
How likely is it to cast a regal force by turn 3 and you combo off the same turn?
Anyway this arguments dont make up a gap of my estimation: ~45% by turn 3 (uncontested) and your estimation 80%

I agree we can get a good card advantage and can do a lot of things with our builds, but we have to face the fact that the combo% uncontested is not super high AND that there are a lot of cards that hurt us. My answer to this can be found in my decklist. A strong combo shell with black for thoughtseize, warcaller & archdruid to support aggro and utility of witness/zealot with 1 GSZ for more access.

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Originally Posted by catmint

if you cast a visionary in turn2, you have 1 card more. Calculate how mauch that increses the chance to draw a glimpse!
How likely is it to cast a regal force by turn 3 and you combo off the same turn?
Anyway this arguments dont make up a gap of my estimation: ~45% by turn 3 (uncontested) and your estimation 80%

I agree we can get a good card advantage and can do a lot of things with our builds, but we have to face the fact that the combo% uncontested is not super high AND that there are a lot of cards that hurt us. My answer to this can be found in my decklist. A strong combo shell with black for thoughtseize, warcaller & archdruid to support aggro and utility of witness/zealot with 1 GSZ for more access.

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You can use Summoner's Pact to find Visionary, Regal Force, or whatever you need to keep searching for the Glimpse. I regularly play Neil's elf combo deck and I have seen he can almost always goldfish by turn 3 (though he often has to wait till turn 4 because I use Repeal or Remand to slow him down).

I think I'm gonna stop posting here. Internet discussions don't lead anywhere.
You guys should start being more realistic. That's all.
Until then, or until I have something really interesting to say, goodbye.

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

I think I'm gonna stop posting here. Internet discussions don't lead anywhere.
You guys should start being more realistic. That's all.
Until then, or until I have something really interesting to say, goodbye.

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When I saw this the first thing that came to mind was the flavor text of Snap: "Good riddance." :D

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Originally Posted by ummon

You can use Summoner's Pact to find Visionary, Regal Force, or whatever you need to keep searching for the Glimpse. I regularly play Neil's elf combo deck and I have seen he can almost always goldfish by turn 3 (though he often has to wait till turn 4 because I use Repeal or Remand to slow him down).

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ARe you serious?
pact for visionary in turn 2 to cast visioinary for 1 more card. Are you sure you can pay upkeep cost with 1-2 lands and 1-2 elves?
..what if someone kills an elf ... you loose the game :)


"almost always goldfish by turn 3" ??
are you serious? .. how many times did you try it? .... =)

guys I have to agree with NihilObstat... if you dont start to be more realistic, it does not make sense to discuss any longer!
k2 .. a lot of your posts make sense... I think you have to be a man and admit that you were just wrong!

I don't mean to be offensive, so please don't take my posts personal.

k2thej, I remember you saying that you were a math major of some sort. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that you're just throwing numbers around. Would you be able to provide some mathematical analysis for the reason you state that your combo turn is turn 2-3 on average?

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Originally Posted by Namida

k2thej, I remember you saying that you were a math major of some sort. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that you're just throwing numbers around. Would you be able to provide some mathematical analysis for the reason you state that your combo turn is turn 2-3 on average?

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I am working on that to try to prove to everyone (and myself) that I am not crazy. It is midterms week at St. Andrews in Scotland (where I am studying for the semseter), and I have a lot of group theory work to do, so that will take up most of my time (and my mathematical brainpower). Everything is due next week though, and I plan on posting some in depth analysis after that.

@catmint- you'd be surprised how often summoning a visionary on turn 2 allows you to combo that turn