Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
@h: Very well put. I agree and think there is purpose behind your statement. I like goyf and agree that alongside drs they are strong enough to warrant hate. Maybe I should do as you both said and pull in every direction. Also deed seems strong atm and I want to try it some more.
@Tom: I tend to run 1 snap or none, just seems very mana intensive. I would like to run some number of strix ideally alongside a sword/jitte. not altogether sure. I will work on it at modern tonight in preparation for the IQ sunday.
You two are definitely entertaining to read. Glad others want this deck to succeed.
I'm glad it made sense, because as I kept typing, I wasn't sure how lucid I was being.
There is also something to be said about how being able to run 4 Braistorms, as we can in Legacy, allows us the flexibility to "mode-swtich" more aptly than in any other format. If you are just a control deck, you are just a control deck even when that isn't so great in the match-up. However, if you are a half-midrange, half-control deck, while you don't maximize your percentage versus decks that are bad versus Control, you also don't throw away games versus decks that are good versus Control.
I feel this is one of the reasons why Team America, with Delver (and Hymn and Liliana) is so versatile. It can play a tempo game, a midrange game, or a sort of control game. Sure, none of those modes are as good as a dedicated Tempo, or Midrange, or Control deck, but the availability to be whichever is needed means you have some advantage over those decks that are one-dimentional. When the tempo plan fails in RUG Delver, they usually are just dead. When it fails in BUG, you can sometimes still grind them down with Liliana, or still get in shots with Deathrites.
Right now though, I have found the "tempo" mode of BUG Delver to be particularly bad, so I want to push harder on the Midrange and Control aspects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
What was your exact list, H?
I really could see cutting Goyf to put in Strix and play the control game and up your blue sources, but TNN is very good to blank removal and just play infinite chumps for your walkers.
I dont know if I want Deed in the main, but its an excellent sideboard tool. Deluge in the main has been excellent. Opponents have to overextend to go around TNN or your Goyfs, so you punish them with Deluge and/or Deed out of the side. Even if you friendly fire a TNN, the X-for-2 value can still be very high.
Truths is the hard nut and I love Sylvan. I dont think Visions is necessary in addition, but I wanted hard draw, not Ponder, and blue sources.
Well, I started with the list you had, that I linked to, a made some changes that lead me to this:
1 TNN
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
14
2 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana OTV
4
3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
21
8 Fetches
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands
I retrospect, I think I'd want the 2nd True-Name. Also, the second Deluge would have been better than the 4th Force (Blue count is low, low). Deluge actually won me a game versus Miracles (Losset-creature heavy style). I played 4 Force by accident really, I was in a bit of a hurry putting the deck together and when I thought I had the list I wanted, I counted 60 and just went with it. I decided to try out the Unearth tech, but I literally never drew it.
This list isn't optimal, but I fit my play style really. I would have liked to see how it did versus Eldrazi, but didn't get the chance. I think Deed is a very good card, but it makes sideboarding sometimes awkward. For example, it is great versus Miracles, but the trouble of keeping your own Pithing Needles and Null Rod on the board is too high a cost to me. This is part of why, even though I love Deed and Landstill, I haven't gone back to BUG Landstill.
I think Deed is best if you are going to switch into more Planeswalker control, so versus decks that you anticipate RiP. In that vein, Miracles who's primary win condition is Entreat is also a great place for Deed, as are SFM decks, and if you can manage to navigate the mana-denial and land it versus a Vial deck. It's also a boat-load of fun if you even catch someone playing Affinity (it's happened). I think Deed is a little slow versus something like Elves, but as long as you don't rely on it, it's generally OK.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
I put a list together and 4-0'd miracles preboard.
4 drs
2 TNN
3 strix
1 snap(10)
3 jtms
3 lotv
1 garruk-relentless(17)
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 decay
4 fow
1 loam
1 deluge
1 counterspell
1 murd cut
1 painful truth
2 thoughtseize (39)
3 waste
1 CTP
3 sea
2 trop
2 bayou
1 forest
1 swamp
4 verdant
4 polluted (21)
I wanted to emphasize planeswalkers and have 5 spells to interact on the stack.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
I wanted to emphasize planeswalkers and have 5 spells to interact on the stack.
Indeed, here is where Deed would really shine out of the board too, I think.
I would just be worried about this list versus something like RUG. Or even worse, UR Delver. It might be ok, but Loam and the Walkers are slow and I find I am often leaning on 'Goyf as a blocker.
Also Counterspell, http://i.imgur.com/hAJGU9e.gif.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Indeed, here is where Deed would really shine out of the board too, I think.
I would just be worried about this list versus something like RUG. Or even worse, UR Delver. It might be ok, but Loam and the Walkers are slow and I find I am often leaning on 'Goyf as a blocker.
Also Counterspell,
http://i.imgur.com/hAJGU9e.gif.
I imagine you are correct. Delver has been on the decline as of lately but I should be ready for it. I will think about a few deeds sb, I just know it limits what the other cards can and cant be. Needle, revoker, other low cmc perms cant be played alongside deed imho. Ideally the cards you bring in against different, non-deed needed, matchups are fine to be hit by deed but I want my cards to work cross matchups so it will be weird. Also, I will be trying a GQ in the sb for slower, grindy matchups where I can ghost lock players.
In the 4 games with counterspell, I have been very happy with it.
Also, I got to invasive surgery a natural order, my opponent was super surprised and sad but then I told him I didn't have delirium and he was fairly relieved.
I will look into a 15 for your perusing.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
I imagine you are correct. Delver has been on the decline as of lately but I should be ready for it. I will think about a few deeds sb, I just know it limits what the other cards can and cant be. Needle, revoker, other low cmc perms cant be played alongside deed imho. Ideally the cards you bring in against different, non-deed needed, matchups are fine to be hit by deed but I want my cards to work cross matchups so it will be weird. Also, I will be trying a GQ in the sb for slower, grindy matchups where I can ghost lock players.
In the 4 games with counterspell, I have been very happy with it.
Also, I got to invasive surgery a natural order, my opponent was super surprised and sad but then I told him I didn't have delirium and he was fairly relieved.
I will look into a 15 for your perusing.
I've been running Invasive Surgery for a few weeks now, still have yet to have anyone cast a Sorcery while I had it in hand though. If Envelop was playable though, it has to be too.
The only thing I see that could be awkward about Counterspell is having so many Liliana. She isn't really condusive to keeping cards in hand, but then again, I am thinking about her in a world where I didn't have Painful Truths. That's definitely a difference now.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I've been running Invasive Surgery for a few weeks now, still have yet to have anyone cast a Sorcery while I had it in hand though. If Envelop was playable though, it has to be too.
The only thing I see that could be awkward about Counterspell is having so many Liliana. She isn't really condusive to keeping cards in hand, but then again, I am thinking about her in a world where I didn't have Painful Truths. That's definitely a difference now.
Id almost want to play Ashiok instead - keep cards, busts up Control matchups as well.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I've been running Invasive Surgery for a few weeks now, still have yet to have anyone cast a Sorcery while I had it in hand though. If Envelop was playable though, it has to be too.
The only thing I see that could be awkward about Counterspell is having so many Liliana. She isn't really condusive to keeping cards in hand, but then again, I am thinking about her in a world where I didn't have Painful Truths. That's definitely a difference now.
I feel it hits enough spells we want it (infernal tutor, past in flames, dark petition, show and tell, ...etc)
Loam works great with lily as well, discarding unnecessary lands. I don't think I have lost a game where I had lily and jtms out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Id almost want to play Ashiok instead - keep cards, busts up Control matchups as well.
dying to decay is kind of huge and not immediately effecting the board is another sad aspect. I could see it in the sideboard but what mu would it be for that we need the help with? Where does it shine? I want to jam it as much as the next person but I have tried it and results were not great.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
I feel it hits enough spells we want it (infernal tutor, past in flames, dark petition, show and tell, ...etc)
Loam works great with lily as well, discarding unnecessary lands. I don't think I have lost a game where I had lily and jtms out.
Indeed, once you have both, it's almost something of a lock. The trouble is getting there sometimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
dying to decay is kind of huge and not immediately effecting the board is another sad aspect. I could see it in the sideboard but what mu would it be for that we need the help with? Where does it shine? I want to jam it as much as the next person but I have tried it and results were not great.
I really have felt like Ashiok is a terrible card. At least, on paper. Dies to REB, doesn't effect the board the turn it comes down, might not even the turn after, the ultimate could be totally irrelevant since it doesn't play to the board at all. Sure, I've seen it win games, but not in Legacy that I can recall. There will be times where pretty much any Planeswalker gone unchecked will probably win you the game, but I can't see that being a real vote in favor of Ashiok, just in favor of a three mana 'walker. You could probably win some games with an unanswered Tibalt too, but that doesn't mean I want it in my deck.
I just think there are better ways to get a better match-up versus Miracles really.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I just think there are better ways to get a better match-up versus Miracles really.
Startled Awake? hahaha Seriously, with my build atleast, the miracles matchup seems decent so we don't need a ton of help from the board.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Startled Awake? hahaha Seriously, with my build atleast, the miracles matchup seems decent so we don't need a ton of help from the board.
Probably still better than Ashiok. OK, maybe not, but it would probably do about as much.
If the combination of Lili, Jace and Garruk can't get you there though, I doubt if anything can. Heck, I'd rather play Vraska the Unseen or Ob Nixilis Reignited than Ashiok, because at least those can do something the turn they come in. Of course they are 5 mana though, so it's doubtful they are worth playing at all.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Probably still better than Ashiok. OK, maybe not, but it would probably do about as much.
If the combination of Lili, Jace and Garruk can't get you there though, I doubt if anything can. Heck, I'd rather play
Vraska the Unseen or
Ob Nixilis Reignited than Ashiok, because at least those can do something the turn they come in. Of course they are 5 mana though, so it's doubtful they are worth playing at all.
Alright, let's not be too rude. I like Ashiok but here is not the place. I do agree with not necessarily needing more threats. What would you consider our bad matchups? Lands? Burn?
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Alright, let's not be too rude. I like Ashiok but here is not the place. I do agree with not necessarily needing more threats. What would you consider our bad matchups? Lands? Burn?
Yeah, I'd say bad on Burn, UR Delver (if they are heavier on Burn, lighter on counters), probably Sneak and Show (especially if they are packing Blood Moon), Lands if they can combo relatively fast, maybe Turbo Eldrazi but depending on the build. That's what I can think of off the top of my head. Possibly RW Death and Taxes as well, since they can wreck our mana and, if we aren't prepared, wreck us with Magus. Maybe Reanimator, I'm really not sure, but certainly if we don't have DRS and they go fast.
I think most matchups fall in the even, or nearly so, category. I think Storm variants, mono-W Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, RUG Delver are pretty close, we have the tools to beat them, but depending on the build it can be a real toss up, sometimes coming down to who is on the play, or how many Stifles they can fire off, how many Wastelands they see, etc.
I don't think Miracles is a real problem for this deck, built as I had it, for the most part. Of course, that is if your draw is reasonable. If you get a subpar one, they probably will crush you. You need pressure of some kind, constantly. I would say that even one turn beyond turn 4 or so with no threat, is going to be a loss for you. If you let them durdle around, spinning Top and not having to look for an answer, they will set up and crush you. You have to dictate the pace of the game, not allow them two-for-1's and settle in for a grindy game. I've found that if you try to win fast, they will take advantage and kill you. Since I only play paper Magic, I don't care if game 1 takes 50 minutes, because I know it generally favors me. If they think they can out grind me, we'll find out. I could be horribly wrong, but over time and playing BUG pretty often, I've found that my results say it's at least somewhat true.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Yeah, I'd say bad on Burn, UR Delver (if they are heavier on Burn, lighter on counters), probably Sneak and Show (especially if they are packing Blood Moon), Lands if they can combo relatively fast, maybe Turbo Eldrazi but depending on the build. That's what I can think of off the top of my head. Possibly RW Death and Taxes as well, since they can wreck our mana and, if we aren't prepared, wreck us with Magus. Maybe Reanimator, I'm really not sure, but certainly if we don't have DRS and they go fast.
I think most matchups fall in the even, or nearly so, category. I think Storm variants, mono-W Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, RUG Delver are pretty close, we have the tools to beat them, but depending on the build it can be a real toss up, sometimes coming down to who is on the play, or how many Stifles they can fire off, how many Wastelands they see, etc.
I don't think Miracles is a real problem for this deck, built as I had it, for the most part. Of course, that is if your draw is reasonable. If you get a subpar one, they probably will crush you. You need pressure of some kind, constantly. I would say that even one turn beyond turn 4 or so with no threat, is going to be a loss for you. If you let them durdle around, spinning Top and not having to look for an answer, they will set up and crush you. You have to dictate the pace of the game, not allow them two-for-1's and settle in for a grindy game. I've found that if you try to win fast, they will take advantage and kill you. Since I only play paper Magic, I don't care if game 1 takes 50 minutes, because I know it generally favors me. If they think they can out grind me, we'll find out. I could be horribly wrong, but over time and playing BUG pretty often, I've found that my results say it's at least somewhat true.
first one to resolve a jtms or if you can get a threat going while disrupting them even a little. decay tops when they fetch. anything to knock them off their tempo.
I agree those are more than likely rough matchups.
I still need to work on a sb. what have you been working with?
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
first one to resolve a jtms or if you can get a threat going while disrupting them even a little. decay tops when they fetch. anything to knock them off their tempo.
I agree those are more than likely rough matchups.
I still need to work on a sb. what have you been working with?
My sideboard can often be a mish-mosh of crap. What I had thrown together was something like:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Life from the Loam
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Flusterstorm
At least, I think that was it. I had the BEBs because I expected some Burn decks, but they weren't there. Surgicals because I hate losing to Dredge. Sowers because I think they are good versus Eldrazi.
In the end, my board was pretty inconsequential. It is almost certainly misbuilt as well.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
My sideboard can often be a mish-mosh of crap. What I had thrown together was something like:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Life from the Loam
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Flusterstorm
At least, I think that was it. I had the BEBs because I expected some Burn decks, but they weren't there. Surgicals because I hate losing to Dredge. Sowers because I think they are good versus Eldrazi.
In the end, my board was pretty inconsequential. It is almost certainly misbuilt as well.
Isnt Chill just a better sb card for burn? BEB just seems super underwhelming against most of the meta. I like sower but isn't control magic better since they cant really interact with enchantments? if they have no removal, then a 2/2 flyer is better. No V Clique? Seems especially good against SnS.
I am a fan of Needle, null rod and revoker in the sb, each hits things you need to deal with. Revoke LED :)
I don't own any flusterstorms so I usually run duress or negate.
SB
2 surgical
2 invasive
2 disfigure
2 duress
1 library
1 null rod
1 revoker
1 needle
1 g charm
1 deluge
1 V clique
Sample sideboard atm. nothing definite
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Isnt Chill just a better sb card for burn? BEB just seems super underwhelming against most of the meta. I like sower but isn't control magic better since they cant really interact with enchantments? if they have no removal, then a 2/2 flyer is better. No V Clique? Seems especially good against SnS.
I am a fan of Needle, null rod and revoker in the sb, each hits things you need to deal with. Revoke LED :)
I don't own any flusterstorms so I usually run duress or negate.
SB
2 surgical
2 invasive
2 disfigure
2 duress
1 library
1 null rod
1 revoker
1 needle
1 g charm
1 deluge
1 V clique
Sample sideboard atm. nothing definite
The issue with Chill is that if it arrives "late" it won't do much, especially if they have played a few 1 drops before the Chill lands. There have been a number of times, especially versus something like UR Delver, where you have to hit a Swiftspear, which is why I mostly favor BEB. I also feel like it should be better versus Price of Progress, because even a 4 mana Price of Progress probably kills you outright, because we are generally pretty slow. I doubt if BEB is literally better than Chill though, even considering those things. There are other corner cases, like Fireblast, where I am fairly sure that BEB is indeed better, or versus something like a turn 2 Eidolon (even if Eidolon isn't really that great against this kind of deck). Basically, it comes down to play-style I think. I am more apt to want cards that are both good in opening hands and good later in the game. Chill looses a lot of value as the game goes on. I have also won games versus something like Sneak and Show due to BEB, along with Mono-Red Sneak Attack, but those are corner cases that really prove nothing at all, except that BEB and Chill are pretty different in that BEB stops something, where Chill only slows it down. There is a chance that if your Burn opponent draws a reasonable amount of lands, Chill doesn't do much.
While you are correct on the Control Magic vs. Sower of Temptation point, in that they are going to be bereft of answers to it, the issue is Reality Smasher, since that is what you will probably be aiming to take and the fact that Control Magic triggers it's ability, where Sower does not.
Clique is just an oversight really, it should have been in my board, had I thought about it more.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
The issue with Chill is that if it arrives "late" it won't do much, especially if they have played a few 1 drops before the Chill lands. There have been a number of times, especially versus something like UR Delver, where you have to hit a Swiftspear, which is why I mostly favor BEB. I also feel like it should be better versus Price of Progress, because even a 4 mana Price of Progress probably kills you outright, because we are generally pretty slow. I doubt if BEB is literally better than Chill though, even considering those things. There are other corner cases, like Fireblast, where I am fairly sure that BEB is indeed better, or versus something like a turn 2 Eidolon (even if Eidolon isn't really that great against this kind of deck). Basically, it comes down to play-style I think. I am more apt to want cards that are both good in opening hands and good later in the game. Chill looses a lot of value as the game goes on. I have also won games versus something like Sneak and Show due to BEB, along with Mono-Red Sneak Attack, but those are corner cases that really prove nothing at all, except that BEB and Chill are pretty different in that BEB stops something, where Chill only slows it down. There is a chance that if your Burn opponent draws a reasonable amount of lands, Chill doesn't do much.
While you are correct on the Control Magic vs. Sower of Temptation point, in that they are going to be bereft of answers to it, the issue is Reality Smasher, since that is what you will probably be aiming to take and the fact that Control Magic triggers it's ability, where Sower does not.
Clique is just an oversight really, it should have been in my board, had I thought about it more.
Yes, you are correct in your evaluation of BEB vs Chill. Going forward, I will likely go with the former seeing as your argument was spot on.
I believe you are correct. I unfortunately thought control magic was targeting on resolution making it an ability but it needs a target to go on the stack.
Clique is very strong but not overly flashy which makes it easy to forget.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Yes, you are correct in your evaluation of BEB vs Chill. Going forward, I will likely go with the former seeing as your argument was spot on.
I believe you are correct. I unfortunately thought control magic was targeting on resolution making it an ability but it needs a target to go on the stack.
Clique is very strong but not overly flashy which makes it easy to forget.
BEB is also something that no one ever expects. I've certainly caught an opponent who didn't respect the possibility of BEB and only play around Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm with me having one Blue open. Also, if you ever face TES, you can put BEB in where Chill would probably be terrible, not that I ever tried it. Now, if we were playing Shardless, I could see playing Chill, since then most of the reason to consider BEB is gone.
Yeah, Auras target while they are being cast, which is very unfortunate. There may well be better cards to consider for Eldrazi, but in my haste to get the deck together those were what I had laying on my desk, from the last time I played Goddik-style TA.
In my list, Clique should really have been in there, because you want something to trade out Strix for versus Miracles. Even versus Losset-style Legends builds, I really don't see me wanting many Strix (if any) because the real problem is Venser-lock and Baneslayer. Strix isn't going to stop either.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Here is my sideboard right now. I would probably need to tune it more for the miracles matchup as that has been the seeming weak spot so far with the 75 that I have played for a few weeks.
2 surgical extraction
2 spell pierce
3 thoughtseize
1 baleful strix
1 toxic deluge
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 thrun, the last troll
1 life from the loam
1 krosan grip
1 golgari charm
1 pernicious deed
I think the deed and possibly strix could be moved to additional anti-miracles hate.
Re: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
BEB is also something that no one ever expects. I've certainly caught an opponent who didn't respect the possibility of BEB and only play around Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm with me having one Blue open. Also, if you ever face TES, you can put BEB in where Chill would probably be terrible, not that I ever tried it. Now, if we were playing Shardless, I could see playing Chill, since then most of the reason to consider BEB is gone.
Yeah, Auras target while they are being cast, which is very unfortunate. There may well be better cards to consider for Eldrazi, but in my haste to get the deck together those were what I had laying on my desk, from the last time I played Goddik-style TA.
In my list, Clique should really have been in there, because you want something to trade out Strix for versus Miracles. Even versus Losset-style Legends builds, I really don't see me wanting many Strix (if any) because the real problem is Venser-lock and Baneslayer. Strix isn't going to stop either.
Surprise factor is a real thing, I will have to look into getting a pair of betas for my binder. Thanks for the suggestion!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
I am not a fan of pierce out of the board. I suggest invasive: counters anything from infernal tutor to terminus. That or negate, :1: more and cant be played around. I also play seize mainboard so I have duress in the side. Grip seems to underperform and thrun doesn't seem like where I wanna be. More jtms, more better.
