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Any fetch > Swamp > DRS = Jund or Junk (mainly Jund).Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled
If you want to hide your information, go for Fetch > Bayou > DRS. This could be Shardless BUG, Team America, Junk, Jund, and even Deathblade or GWb Maverick.
Hiding info is better suited for combo decks. Moreover, with all those Gitaxian Probes and Thoughtseizes running around (or even scouting), the advantage is almost always irrelevant.
That is the thing, playing off-coloured fetchlands does not provide you a significant advantage and only messes up the unity. And if we operate with the belief that players might play off-coloured fetchlands to provide false information, the Bloodstained Mire you play can be interpreted as an off-coloured fetch as well...
Actually DMav/DGA has always run basic swamp and Shardless has started running a pair of basics to deal with the "Lose to blood moon" problem a bit better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
If you fetch into swamp it only really says you're probably not on Delver.
The reasoning isn't that it provides a huge advantage, it's that theres no reason to represent the colors you're playing. It doesn't matter if it rarely matters, it gives your opponent an opportunity to make a mistake for almost no cost and you should be giving them that opportunity every time you get the chance.
You can run RUG Delver off of Flooded Strands and Polluted Deltas and get the exact same effect as using Scalding Tarns and Misty Rainforests. Having a Flooded Strand sitting there uncracked on the play sends a whole different message than having a Scalding Tarn or Misty Rainforest. You are *much* more likely to get to Stifle a fetchland activation when you want to do it, during their turn, than if you had the on-color fetches. Having your opponent repeatedly fetch during your upkeep so that at least you don't gain a lot of tempo if you Stifle the fetch is a real pain.
Tried playing the non punishing version for a couple of weeks. Basically reid dukes old list. I won two tournaments in a row just on the back of maindeck loam lock (games against BUG Control, Esperblade, Patriot Delver, Aggro Loam, UWr Miracles, and Death and Taxes).
Recently I lost however (damn merfolk somehow), got ground out by a Death and Taxes that got both wilt leafs in games 2 and 3 (didnt even lili or hymn them into play, just aether vialed).
Against merfolk bob and thoughtseize did serious work against me game 1, and bob killed me game 2.
What I can say about this version is that you can pretty easily cast any spell you want whenever you want by fetching basics, but you get ground out without the lategame punishing fire engine.
Might try switching it up this week to throw the local players off my tail, but I have been impressed with the 4 basic version.
I was thinking about trying the non fire version. Thea Steele has some open top 8s and an invitational top 8 so the deck is clearly good.
I was actually going to run a Punishing Fire-less build as well this week. Punishing Fire lately has just been... lackluster. I've sort of been treating it almost like Force of Will in a meta without combo. I move to game two and instantly move to board out the Punishing Fires and a Grove without thinking. And for the games where they do make the cut and I do remember to keep them in, they instantly get hated out via Rest in Peace or some other Wasteland or some other variety of hate. Certainly solvable problems, but they're seeming more and more like unnecessary and avoidable problems. Punishing Fire is still amazing, and it's the difference between shitting on and getting shit on in a variety of matchups (such as the mirror), but I'm just wondering if there's not other cards that just do more against more with less.
Back in the rise of TNN around jan/feb I did the test and it was rather…lackluster. But I only testes it in a single tourney, with a single list.
I called it Diabolic Jund back then (started with 4 diabolic edicts, and then shifted to two):
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Mountain
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Domri Rade
Maybe it should behave more like Shardless bug and bring in Toxic Deluge/Golgari Charm maindeck or somehting like that. Worth experimenting mor but I remember a series of situations in which I'd have wished I had Punshing Fire.
I've tried dropping P. Fire a couple of times but the combo is just so dominating in any fair matchup I just can't justify a reason to play without it.
I'm playing with a Golgari Charm MD at the moment. I've only played one night at my LGS with it but I played against three TNN decks out of four rounds so my experience with it is a bit biased (it was incredible).
I've always been under the impression that the maindeck as a cure-all is where Golgari Charm is supposed to be. Blow out an Empty the Warrens. Kill a True Name Nemesis. Kill an unflipped Delver of Secrets. Get around Mother of Runes. Sneak in for Sylvan Library. Fucking shitty deathtouch birds... Then games two and three you board it out for more specific hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I'm still unsure, it seems like a very high variance card to have maindeck. Some matchups I can see it being pretty dead, but the potential is there. It did win two 'unwinnable' games two weeks ago. G1 vs Merfolk, me 2 life and Bob. Him, lord, 2x TNN and mutavault. He swung full out, I P. Fired the lord, blocked muta then charmed to get rid of the TNNs. I was then able to play play liliana and hold up bolt for the muta and take over the game. And G1 vs Esper Deathblade, I fell behind on board thanks to him being on the play and landing a DRS. Charm ended up eating 2x TNN and a Baleful Strix and my goyfs smashed face. I even used it in another game to regen two goyfs that were blocked by two strix.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I'll be playing with it MD again tonight and let you know.
Have people tested Slaughter Games in sideboard? It's a really good SB card in Jund Nic Fit, and I haven't seen many lists with it in this thread. Miracles is a good matchup, but Slaughter Games just kills them. Exile Entreat the Angels, and you have Punishing Fire to deal with Jace.
It's also boss against Sneak and Show, by removing one of their combo pieces (either Grisel or Emrakul, or even Sneak Attack). Average against storm-based combo (remove Tendrils against ANT and Burning Wish against T.E.S), if you manage to survive until turn 3~4.
My list for reference:
Lands [23]
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures [15]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells [22]
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
Sideboard [15]
2 Duress
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
Slaughter Games came into REB/Pyroblast slots, which I haven't been using for a while.
I use the card (3 of) on my 4Colors Loam list, but I wonder if it's as effective with Jund, like, Jund can probably pull it off on Miracles, but it doesn't have mox speed to top Show and Tell and Storm, for example.. But I think it's an excellent card and worth the test, apart the slow speed.
Another bad thing about it is dramatically raising the amount of 4cc cards for BOB to draw.
If you can't find a decay and they manage to get countertop online they can just float a two and tick up with Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I've played it in Nicshift and it was great there, but I fear it's a bit too slow for normal Jund lists. I'd love to be proved wrong though as I like the card a lot, I'll give it a spin tonight ad put two in my SB.
Ignoring the rest of the list, the issue with Slaughter Games is the same as any card that costs more mana than you're willing to spend... It's too slow and doesn't do anything that other cards don't do similarly. Yes, you can try to name Tendrils of Agony, but you won't live long enough. Yes, you can name Terminus, but then again you could have just targeted it with Surgical Extraction instead. I love the card in Modern (fukken Scapeshift). I think it's neat as a 1x in Nic Fit. But in a deck where the curve effectively caps at 3cc, it's simply not viable.
Why is this still in the deck against Miracles after game 1?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Actually, you can live until turn 4 against ANT with Thoughtseizes, Hymn and Lilianas. They usually goldfish for turn 3, and needs more time to setup Past in Flames if you disrupted their hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I find Lightning Bolt and Life from the Loam worse than Punishing Fire against Miracles. I usually board -3 Bolt -1 LftL -1 Punishing Fire +2 Slaughter Games +2 Duress +1 Maelstrom Pulse.
Do people board all P. Fires out? I've not actually talked to other Jund players about SBing for this matchup, but have usually left in two...though it's dependent on my SB at the time. I've found them really useful when under countertop to check the top of their library constantly to try and land something else as well as picking off their cliques, snaps, venser etc. We do have Pyroblasts after board too for Jace, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
The issue with Punishing Fires isn't that they're not useful utility. Sometimes I'll keep two around if I see a lot of Cliques and a Stoneforge or I might keep a single copy in if the mood strikes. But otherwise they occupy a significant portion of the deck and, aside from one-ofs like Edict, are easily the weakest link of the deck in terms of the Miracles matchup. Even weaker than Bolt if you consider that with twenty-four land list you can cut a Grove of the Burnwillows without as many Punishing Fires. When it comes down to it and you're looking to put in Red Elemental Blasts and Pithing Needles and Surgical Extractions or Null Rod and Bitterblossom if you have them or Duress or Ancient Grudge depending on the deck, what do you remove first? Dark Confidant? Motherfucking Liliana of the Veil? Considering Vandalize's list has a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense and his board contains very few answers to Miracles, he can sort of justify keeping Punishing Fires in kind of, but what's our excuse? The deck should already be largely tailored for U/x/x Delver and Miracles as that's what the meta largely consists of. If you pick up half your deck after game one and groan that you have so many things to get rid of, you are doing it wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I actually don't like maelstrom pulse against miracles. Most of the time they end entreat, untap, and kill you. It's better to just not let the game get to that point. I'm not an expert on this deck, but I've never lost to miracles because our threat density is too high for them to successfully grind us out. I board out bolts, loam, edict, 2 fires and bring in 2 duress, 2 extraction, and 2 blasts. Sometimes I deviate from that exact board plan though, I might bring in pithing needle if I think it's best at the time, or deed if the player is particularly aggressive with entreat, or golgari charm if they have more copies of rest in peace than usual, or the 3rd duress if I want to maximize my chances of seeing their hand on turn one.