[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

I dunno about you, but I don't even SB STP's. EE pops@2 for 4 mana. Deed pops for 5. Pretty much the same mana for a more thurough sweeper that can hit for more than 2cc. I am in no way advocating the green splash, just saying that if you're going to run tombstalker over grunt, that it might make more sense. Goyf+Deed>Vindicate+nothing.

My list eh?

4 bob
3 hippy
3 shade
3 grunt

4 hymn
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize (I agree that this should be a 3-of, but something else ought to get put in instead, and I'm not sure what.)
4 Vindicate
2 Smallpox
2 EE
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 dark rit
4 waste
4 scrub
3 mire
3 delta
1 tomb
7 swamp

sorry about the abbreviations and such i just kinda burned the hell out of my thumb with a firework and it hurts like hell to type with it

I think you can safely go down to 23 Land and add in the third Smallpox.
Also, I think Tombstalker might be better then Grunt here as well. He's so damn big. There were a lot of games at EPIC I played where I think that he would have made the difference instead of Grunt.

And if you want 10 discard spells, run the Third top, cut a land and run Sinkhole as a 2 of, or run a 1-of Tombstalker or something. This is in addition to the thought of the third Pox.

@Rsaunder: Why no SB StPs?

Also, white splash > green splash because Scrublands look far, far better than Bayous. Really. Besides, if I'm correct, you have 4 BB Scrublands, but not 4 BB Bayous, right?

@Whit3 Ghost:

Why Sinkholes? They do too little; they are slow against Thresh, do nothing against Gobbos and Belcher and TES, and can be dead cards many times even in matchups where they may see use...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

@Rsaunder: Why no SB StPs?

Also, white splash > green splash because Scrublands look far, far better than Bayous. Really. Besides, if I'm correct, you have 4 BB Scrublands, but not 4 BB Bayous, right?

@Whit3 Ghost:

Why Sinkholes? They do too little; they are slow against Thresh, do nothing against Gobbos and Belcher and TES, and can be dead cards many times even in matchups where they may see use...

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No, we have BB Duals, I believe. And by we I mean he.

Sinhole was really good in every matchup I played except Belcher. Things like Maze of Ith can be a real pain when you have to deal with manlands and possibly Crucibles.

It's better against Goblins then you think, especially when you are able to neutralize AEther Vial. It's possible to have them stall out on 2-3 mana

I picked up a set of BB bayus, mostly for Aluren but they make me so much less biased when looking at different splashes. Anything I build looks pretty sexy now:tongue:

No SB STPs was a decision I reached a while back (and I have beta ones I like to play, so no "it's too expensive to pimp" factor here [/bragging]) when goblins thresh and solidarity made up the metagame. I always looked at shat I wanted to board in against certain decks and realized that I was boarding in way too many cards. That made me look at everything and figure out exactly what I was boarding out against each major deck. Against thresh dystopias came in for sinkhole, against goblins plague came in for duress. Cutting anything else for STP in these matchups was just the wrong play. Eventually it dawned on me as I constantly stuck STP in the board for my "extra random slot" that I unerringly had, that I never sided it in. It was always too narrow, didn't do enough, or would replace something with an alomst-as-desireable effect, and in that case, it was better to put the SB slots to some better use, either hating the big decks more or prepping with more specific hate (perish, or storm hate for example.)

My other problem with STP is the life gain. I usually win my games against aggro by a narrow margin, and if my removal can avoid giving them life, well then jolly good!

So my conclusion about STP was that it was impossible to justify when something more effective at what I wanted it to do could be in it's place. I think that's about what Pikula said about the 2 MB E. Plagues he ran; "I only had 2 slots for removal, so I wanted them to be [heavy hitters]" (or something to that effect.)

@Sinkhole: It sucks against Thresh and Fish and is pretty bad against storm combo. That is my justification for not running it. I agree that it's good against goblins (I always kept 4 post-board) and against controll is pretty nuts, but those can be won without it (heavy discard is nice for controll and although it's a trade off against goblins, discard is still useful). I just don't think it diserves MB slots in an "ideal" meta right now. Perhaps in an aggro-control heavy meta (non thresh-fish) and aggro, it would be a choice, but right now I'd rather run more smallpox.

I still strongly disagree with tombstalker. Sure it's better than grunt against some decks, but grunt as a 3-of is so devistating to thresh and survival and any control that likes to use the 'yard (and it restocks your deck) that I don't think he can be cut right now. I like tombstalker, he's a nice guy and cheap enough to play realistically but he just doesn't do it for me. Also, an answered tombstalker is way harder on your position than an answered grunt, especially if they wait for your attack step.

Why'd you ever want Hymn against Thresh with 8 Duresses?

Also, about the small life margin against Aggro, do you think a big finisher like Tombstalker would affect that, just asking?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Why'd you ever want Hymn against Thresh with 8 Duresses?

Also, about the small life margin against Aggro, do you think a big finisher like Tombstalker would affect that, just asking?

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Hymn just helps take out creatures initially. I don't know if it's the right play now (-4 hymn, -1 Hippy +1 seize +4 dystopia) but at the time it was correct. And now, adding dystopia#4 seems way more important than swords#1.

[confusing rant]In theory, a big finisher would end the game before life would become a problem, but in this case I don't think tombstalker would really help the "life problem". Forgetting for a second that it flips for eight, it once again biols down to the opportunity cost for running stalker: cutting grunt. In nearly game I play against aggro, grunt is an amazing asset, always at least 1-for-1-ing the opponent, usually more. Now, tombstalker can play defensively like this too, but while he's chumping smaller creatures, he isn't sending business back into your deck or removig your opponent's graveyard. I realize that has nothing to do with life in the short run, and that a finisher like him, if you were attacking before the point that grunt would have been equally good (a race with blockers), then he could be amazing. This strikes me as just too situational, though, to sacrifice grunt.[/confusing rant]

EDIT: I guess my point there was: When playing defensively, like I almost always am with the deck, tombstalker isn't that much better than grunt as a pure beatstick finisher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I guess my point there was: When playing defensively, like I almost always am with the deck, tombstalker isn't that much better than grunt as a pure beatstick finisher.

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The more I read through this thread, the more I feel I misplay the deck : when most of you play the deck Control/Aggro, I play it Aggro/Control. =/

If I was playing the MD EExplosives and SmallPoxes Rsaunder runs, I would definitly dislike the fact my early Shades and Confidants could be sent to oblivion...

One last point :
With the addition of Thoughtseize, and the fact that most builds run 4 bobs and ~6 fetchlands (and smallpox), has lifeloss been a matter and costs you some games ?
No Jittes, no Verdicts, no StP (on your own confidant) = no Life Gain. Sure SdT can make bob's drawback less painful, but I'd hate doing half my opp's job on my own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lolosoon

The more I read through this thread, the more I feel I misplay the deck : when most of you play the deck Control/Aggro, I play it Aggro/Control. =/

If I was playing the MD EExplosives and SmallPoxes Rsaunder runs, I would definitly dislike the fact my early Shades and Confidants could be sent to oblivion...

One last point :
With the addition of Thoughtseize, and the fact that most builds run 4 bobs and ~6 fetchlands (and smallpox), has lifeloss been a matter and costs you some games ?
No Jittes, no Verdicts, no StP (on your own confidant) = no Life Gain. Sure SdT can make bob's drawback less painful, but I'd hate doing half my opp's job on my own.

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@Life: It hasn't decided many games yet for me (i.e. I've lost games by waaay more than seize/whatever damage). In fact, the only game that leaps to mind was one against UGr thresh when the game went on 45 turns, he had to topdeck fire to win, and I was on grunt#5. So it had been sort of up in the air. I'm going to redo the life-loss-situation-average (how many damage I take in an average game) tonight, but it looks like 5-7 right now, which, imho is a lot, but surmountable.

@Killing your own stuff: It's all about timing. I don't just smallpox away my creature to kill anything, you play it when it's beneficial to you. Snag the draw off confident, attack with it, then smallpox away the goose. Beat with shade, then pop EE to kill off the 2 goyfs that look like they're gonna eat your face next turn (if the opponent isn't holding counter of course). Use sensei's divining top before blowing EE for 1:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

@Killing your own stuff:(...)

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I think I got it : Use your brain before using your cards ^^;

Still, I'll test playing more control cards like EE and SPox and try getting used to them and their subtilities.

Thanks for you answer, I'm looking forward to those lifeloss calculations !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Hymn just helps take out creatures initially. I don't know if it's the right play now (-4 hymn, -1 Hippy +1 seize +4 dystopia) but at the time it was correct. And now, adding dystopia#4 seems way more important than swords#1.

[confusing rant]In theory, a big finisher would end the game before life would become a problem, but in this case I don't think tombstalker would really help the "life problem". Forgetting for a second that it flips for eight, it once again biols down to the opportunity cost for running stalker: cutting grunt. In nearly game I play against aggro, grunt is an amazing asset, always at least 1-for-1-ing the opponent, usually more. Now, tombstalker can play defensively like this too, but while he's chumping smaller creatures, he isn't sending business back into your deck or removig your opponent's graveyard. I realize that has nothing to do with life in the short run, and that a finisher like him, if you were attacking before the point that grunt would have been equally good (a race with blockers), then he could be amazing. This strikes me as just too situational, though, to sacrifice grunt.[/confusing rant]

EDIT: I guess my point there was: When playing defensively, like I almost always am with the deck, tombstalker isn't that much better than grunt as a pure beatstick finisher.

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How often for you has the 'Grunt restocking your deck' part been relevant for you? Personally, I think that only against Control ion a long game would it be relevant; and against Control, there would be a million and one ways for them to kill Grunt, that it would hardly be expected to stay on the board for long.

Also, for Tombstalker: Against Wasteland decks I find that holding Grunt and another white card, I can only play one of the two, causing a dead card in my hand, because of the Wasteland which would destroy my Scrubland the moment I fetch it. Therefore I prefer Tombstalker, to reduce the white count in the deck.

Also, For StoP against Thresh: I think -4 Hymn, -4 Sinkhole, -3 Duress + 4 Leyline of the Void +1 Dystopia +2 Diabolic Edict + 4 Swords to Plowshares would work, no? Converting to Board Control to obtain card advantage through Dark Confidant, preferably involving a Leyline(which wins games.period.), seems better than relying on the conventional disruption strategy against Thresh(seeing as they would just cantrip into the stuff they want to see anyway, so our discard isn't that good...)

Okay, so i've been playing tonigh (here in france) with a friend with my brand new confidant build against two of his deck : CRET Belcher and BUG Threshold (since it wrench others thresh in the mirrors he choose it over the other version). His CRET list is similar to what we find in this forum, and this is the list he have as a BUG Threshold :
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp

3 sensei's divination top
2 counterbalance
4 Force of will
3 daze
4 smother
3 ghastly demise
4 brainstorm
4 serum vision
3 stifle
2 engineered explosives

4 tarmagoyf
4 dark confidant
2 tombstalker

and then, my version of deadguy :
4 scrubland
2 bloodstained mire
2 windswept heath
4 wasteland
1 urborg, tomb of yaugzebul
1 tomb of urami
1 plains
6 swamp

4 dark confidant
3 nantuko shade
3 hypnotic specter
3 jotun grnut
1 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
3 thoughtseize
3 duress
2 sensei's divination top
4 sinkhole
3 vindicate
3 sword to plowshare

SB :
4 engineered plague
3 dystopia
3 planar void
3 chalice of the void
2 cursed scroll (forgot to buy some EE)

First we have done 5 quick match against belcher.
i litterally wrench him, going 4-1 (the only kill being a turn one belcher / activate).
Then, the big one.
10 match pre and post board. 5 of wich i was on the go, 5 others on the draw.
and here are the stat : 12 - 8 for threshold.
pre board: 5-5 and postboard : 7-3.
he have sided nothing all the time. i have side in 3 planar void for 3 duress.

My point of view is that the best bet you can do win facing threshold is attacking their manabase. Nearly all my win were due to LD backed up by some discard. Jotun was really the MVP. stalker wasn't that impressive, same as tomb of urami (smother i hate you) though i've won one game due to a urami token. stalker force me to run SDT too, so i think that i'll change this -1 stalker -2 SDT +3 engineered explosives.
Countertop just wrench this deck, i've lost many game only due to a resolved counterbalance. that's why i think EE is the way to go. Moreover it help for other matchup such as combo or aggro, and act as a removal.
Thoughtseize help a LOT, it is a must to take a tarmagoyf with it, saving so much life. I don't think i'll run more fetchland, cause with bob, fetch and thoughtseize, the life loss can be sometime revelant.
So here are my though, you can ask me question about this particular matchup (belcher and BUG threshold).

in addition to this, i must adapt my SB to my meta (80 % of threshold, some combo, 1 life, 1 enchantress, 2-3 goblin and random deck like MBA, MBC, land!...).
i don't know if chalice of void is worth the SB slot, cause i already wrench combo.
some thought about a SB for such a meta ?

Holo.

I disagree with Holo on "how to beat thresh". Land D has always seemed like a golden priority against them, but really it's not all that effective because they only need like 2 lands. I always go for more of a board controll strategy against thresh (like Hummingbird) with EE and other removal complimented by discard followed up by beats. I generally don't even waste lands after like turn 3 unless I'm in a position to completely cut him off of a color of mana. If I hadn't posted my anti-thresh, it was looking like -4 hymn -2x (dark rit/bob/really depends on the thresh) +4 Dystopia +1 thoughtseize +1 duress.

I gave up on graveyard hate other then grunt after the EPIC DFD when planar void royally shit the bed and leyline just proved too inconsistant (and running 4 of them was restrictive). Haven't you found that thresh sides in grip expecting the leyline anyways? I wasn't impressed with it against goyf either, they always got at least 3/4 on MY yard anyways. *shrug* One more instance where I perfer grunt for the job.

@Grunt Restocking: I don't know, quite simply. It seems like good practice, though, to during you upkeep put business on the bottom and then pop a fetch. It also makes it so running out of threats in longer games is a non-issue. And yes, this happens against thresh/fish for me relatively frequently. Shuffling more grunts in is especially intense against decks like that (<3 preboard hate).

@Grunt getting removed: Hopefully they won't have a hand for it in any case, but I'd much rather lose 1 of 3 grunts (and know I might get to reshuffle it later) than 1 of 2 stalkers and most of my 'yard with no shot at getting it back.

@Wasteland&White Count: Playing a manabase like ours well is a work of art, and I'm sure everyone who has really played the deck will say the same. I've rarely had a problem with being able to play one, not the other. Perhaps it's just me and how I play my manabase, but I never have troubles with white mana outside of the "trips vindicate and no scrubs or sacs for 10 turns" scenareo. It always depends on the game state, but most of the time people waste me, it's late game and I'm holding a scrub baiting the waste. Early game, I never lose lands to wastes because my opponent is so hard up for resources anyway. If they do waste, generally the land lost will give me time to find another or seal the game with my other draws.

@Tomb: It should be there for emergencies. If mo opponent has a hand, I'll almost never pop it. Too riskay.

Holo, my SB right now is:
1 duress
1 thoughtseize
4 Dystopia
3 Extirpate
4 E. Plague
2 Serenity
Which has a fairly good game against thresh. Not 100%, but more than positive enough.

For mostly thresh, you could combine my hate and HummingBird's and go both 'yard hate and board control:
4 Leyline
4 Dystopia
7 *doesn't matter*
Should rape them. That alongside grunt and EE MB=you kinda win. Try siding out your sinkholes, I think you'll like how it plays out better. As for chalice, I stopped siding them in. With 8 duress post-board you should be fine.

So I think I like SDT without tombstalker. I reserve the right to take it out at any point though and not look like an idiot:wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Holo_rip

Stalker force me to run SDT too, so i think that i'll change this -1 stalker -2 SDT +3 engineered explosives.
Countertop just wrench this deck, i've lost many game only due to a resolved counterbalance.

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Do you think +1 Vindicate, +2 EE would be better? Standard Thresh lists, be it UGr, UGw, or BUG can't counter 3cc spells with Counterbalance, so saving Vindicate for Counterbalance might be your best option. EE is still amazing, but still easier for them to counter off of Counterbalance.

As for the board, have you thought about Pithing Needle? It can shut off Top against *****, and is good against tons of other stuff.

thanks all for the feedback. After some thought, i think that i'll try this :
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
4 swamp
1 plains
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
1 urborg, tomb of yaugzebul
1 tomb of urami

4 dark confidant
3 hypnotic specter
3 nantuko shade
3 jotun grunt

4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 sinkhole
3 vindicate
3 sword to plowshare
3 engineered explosive
2 sensei's divination top

SB :
4 engineered plague
4 leyline of the void
4 dystopia
3 serenity

All in all, now i must test this list.

Holo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00bas4urus_r3x

Standard Thresh lists, be it UGr, UGw, or BUG can't counter 3cc spells with Counterbalance

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As Hummingbird said, they can't CounterTop EE if you paid BBW for it. Still, it cost an additionnal 2 to activate.

I've tested 3xEE 2xSmallPox MD (dropping Verdicts and StP). The Explosives were great during playtest session (UGr Thresh -no MD needles- , UG Madness , Dredge Ichorid), the SPox were not.

I often draw them belong extra gas in hand which I didn't want to discard. Smother//StP//SDT will replace them I think.

@Holo_Rip : I like the 1x plain, 2x windswept heath of your build for wasteland-proof. But don't the basic plain without Urborg makes your shades less effective sometimes ?
And did you miss the Hymns now that you run Thoughseize ?!?

Cutting Hymn is the wrong play in any deck that runs discard; Like this one. I'd reconsider that choice.

Not really; I would cut Hymn if they printed another Thoughtseize. Besides, Hymn is proving to be far too slow at times. For example, against Thresh, and sometimes even against combo its too inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Cutting Hymn is the wrong play in any deck that runs discard; Like this one. I'd reconsider that choice.

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I would agree with this. Against Control, Hymn discarding lands is often game over. Thoughtsieze can easily replace duress in metagames with a lot of goyfs/goblins/creatures. This deck should be running at least 2 maindeck Jitte's with all the life loss now.

Jittes equipped to what, with 11 creatures?