[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

@rubbelkill.


Rhino Fit seems to have many 3 mana cards but every few 2 mana. 3 Painful Truth seems to be one too many.

Why not replace one with Night's Whisper ?

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You are absolutely right, there are few 2 mana cards and more 3 mana cards. To be honest I don't really need more 2 mana cards, the only one I'd consider would be a decay, but do I really need the fourth one? I think I run a lot (one could probably say too much) of removal already.
The third truth is probably overkill, as I said. Night whisper wouldn't make that big of a difference to be honest, probably the third truths should be a second tracker but for now I'm going to play this list.
I really don't feel the need to play situational low cmc cards outside of what I already play: the deck feels like a well oiled machine in my opinion.

I always felt like the 2-drop spot was never much concern to me. Either I am wanting to GSZ for a 1-drop, or landing a Library here. Rare occasion is both Vet and Therapy on this turn. Similarly, I haven't often wanted 2-drop green dudes because the 3-drop spot is already crowded with hardcasting 3-drop dudes or deeds or Truths, and I have not usually wanted to GSZ, X = 2, there.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

I always felt like the 2-drop spot was never much concern to me. Either I am wanting to GSZ for a 1-drop, or landing a Library here. Rare occasion is both Vet and Therapy on this turn. Similarly, I haven't often wanted 2-drop green dudes because the 3-drop spot is already crowded with hardcasting 3-drop dudes or deeds or Truths, and I have not usually wanted to GSZ, X = 2, there.

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Yes, I agree with all this. The only 2 mana cards outside decay that I consider are hymn (in the gb fit version I play) and occasionally ooze, if I really need bonus lifegain (see my bug version).

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Or actually, maybe Knight of the Reliquary really is well positioned in Nic Fit. Sneak and Show is popular and that is the obviously good matchup. Apart from that SDT's need to be replaced and with some mix of Tireless Tracker, Courser of Kruphix and maybe Vizier of the Menagerie KotR actually becomes rather synergetic, providing extra shuffling, extra mana, thinning the library, extra landfall etc. That would make Titania pretty good. She usually makes a huge impact when I resolve her... Throw in Sylvan Safekeeper and Scryb Ranger and it's a deck.

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I agree that going Titania lands style, you'd have to dedicate the entire list. The consensus for Junk is giving up Sigarda and Siege Rhino.

A man can dream:


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

I've been playing Titania with just 2 Crop Rotation and fetchlands and she is awesome. Crop into Wasteland yourself provides 15 power out of nowhere and ends games.

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Originally Posted by Lueseto

I've been playing Titania with just 2 Crop Rotation and fetchlands and she is awesome. Crop into Wasteland yourself provides 15 power out of nowhere and ends games.

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I think she is well positioned right now, and doesn't really take that much effort to utilize. I did something similar with 2 Intuition, 1 Loam, 1 Ghost Quarter in my BUG list. Had one game where I was at 6 lands on the field (one was a fetch), GQ in grave. I played out Titania and had 20 power ready to swing next turn.

She is also nice against a Sneak/Show player if they put out Emrakul.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

I always felt like the 2-drop spot was never much concern to me. Either I am wanting to GSZ for a 1-drop, or landing a Library here. Rare occasion is both Vet and Therapy on this turn. Similarly, I haven't often wanted 2-drop green dudes because the 3-drop spot is already crowded with hardcasting 3-drop dudes or deeds or Truths, and I have not usually wanted to GSZ, X = 2, there.

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What is your ideal sequencing? I ask because I have a very different opinion of 2 CMC cards in Nic Fit and T2 ideal plays.

I would typically lead on a Deathrite or Therapy. T2 would be going for 3-drop or Vet, flashback Therapy, 3-drop respectively.

If i have GSZ and neither of the above available, I'd likely hold up fetch on T1, and GSZ for Deathrite on 2.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Lueseto

I've been playing Titania with just 2 Crop Rotation and fetchlands and she is awesome. Crop into Wasteland yourself provides 15 power out of nowhere and ends games.

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I've tried a couple builds with Titania, I don't like the card though, it encourages you to not use mana, so that you can leave fetches up, or worse Wastelands. Leaving up untapped mana to GSZ for X=5 means having a ton of mana on the board already. I think there's better things to do if you're going to commit that much mana to it.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I've tried a couple builds with Titania, I don't like the card though, it encourages you to not use mana, so that you can leave fetches up, or worse Wastelands. Leaving up untapped mana to GSZ for X=5 means having a ton of mana on the board already. I think there's better things to do if you're going to commit that much mana to it.

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Hmm, I haven't been doing that... I just feel that by herself, with just a fetch in the yard that's 10 power already, which is pretty big for a 5 cmc zenitheable creature. I don't think you should be saving fetchlands for her. In the games I've played her, I've been able to pull 15-20 power out of her without much committing and without altering my earlier plays. Plus she ramps you 1 land which is always nice. I find this deck to be excessively mana-hungry, specially now that I've moved to 3 Tireless Tracker, so that extra land always comes in handy.

I dunno, it's just that without her I really don't see a way to close games really fast. Kind of reminds me of Grave Titan. Less raw power for sure, but costs 1 mana less and is zenitheable, and I'll repeat myself: with a Crop Rotation in hand it's absolutely lethal on the next turn. Fetch in the yard + cropped land + cropped fetchland/wasteland can mean 20/25 power out of nowhere, and it happens not that rarely.

Commune with the gods searches emrakul(and erything else), Sneak Attack and Deed. Could that be a thing?

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

You are absolutely right, there are few 2 mana cards and more 3 mana cards. To be honest I don't really need more 2 mana cards, the only one I'd consider would be a decay, but do I really need the fourth one? I think I run a lot (one could probably say too much) of removal already.
The third truth is probably overkill, as I said. Night whisper wouldn't make that big of a difference to be honest, probably the third truths should be a second tracker but for now I'm going to play this list.
I really don't feel the need to play situational low cmc cards outside of what I already play: the deck feels like a well oiled machine in my opinion.

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I think the main argument for 2 drops is it still leaves your deck functional when you can't accelerate. A T2 Vet opener will happen for you 24.4% of the time, and a T1 DRS opener is 11.7% of the time. Assuming you get neither of those, which are the perfect openings you have the opportunity to GSZ=1 and get a Vet on T2 for some T3 acceleration in 48.1% of games. Throw it all together and you only have a success rate of 65.35%. Which means that in a full third of your games you still need some other plan and that's before considerations like your opponent wastelanding you, or the hands with a combo but only 1 land.

If you don't like the two drop solution, I'll point out that simply adding a Dryad Arbor to have the GSZ=0 play available increases your chance of having 3 mana on T2 from 65% to 79%

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Originally Posted by Brael

I think the main argument for 2 drops is it still leaves your deck functional when you can't accelerate. A T2 Vet opener will happen for you 24.4% of the time, and a T1 DRS opener is 11.7% of the time. Assuming you get neither of those, which are the perfect openings you have the opportunity to GSZ=1 and get a Vet on T2 for some T3 acceleration in 48.1% of games. Throw it all together and you only have a success rate of 65.35%. Which means that in a full third of your games you still need some other plan and that's before considerations like your opponent wastelanding you, or the hands with a combo but only 1 land.

If you don't like the two drop solution, I'll point out that simply adding a Dryad Arbor to have the GSZ=0 play available increases your chance of having 3 mana on T2 from 65% to 79%

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I don't plan on pooping out a mediocre 2-3 mana dude on T2-3 necessarily, I don't want to be proactive in the early game if I don't have any means of acceleration. I want to be the control player in the early game, and T2 decay is a perfectly legitimate option for that role.
Without top I want to reduce the amount of nonsense I play in the deck, because I want to be able to have live draws throughout the game.
Even when I play a 2 drop like ooze, I consider the guy a late game card to steal a win after eating 2 full graveyards, or like a desperate mean of life gain when I need it. That's why I play ooze pretty much only in GB and BUG, because I need the life gain. As a normal 2 drop in sneak fit or rhino fit the card is very mediocre in my experience. I don't even consider ooze a decent gy hate card because it's soo slow.

I played dryad arbor a lot in the past, and in the end I decided it's a bad use of a land slot. If you play SFM and/or Meren then Arbor becomes a legitimate option, but since I believe none of those 2 cards are particularly good to have in the deck I play, I won't play arbor anymore.

I played a match against Sneak Fit with commune with the gods on X mage. That card seems to be very good in that deck.

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Originally Posted by Dalton!

Commune with the gods searches emrakul(and erything else), Sneak Attack and Deed. Could that be a thing?

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Yes, I think it's seems good when I played aganist it

So played in a 40 man event today and top 8'd and lost first round to Sneak and Show with

Creatures: 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force

Instant/Sorcery: 16
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths

Enchantments: 3
3 Pernicious Deed

Lands:21
2 forest
2 island
1 swamp
2 Trop
2 Bayou
1 Underground
3 Misty
3 Delta
3 Verdant
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:

4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip



Hightlight of the day was playing against aluren when they cast an aluren at 9 life, and then assembled strix plus harpy and Yawgmoth bargin'd down to 1, didnt hit the combo and then I out grinded him with a meren and some strixes(he had a leovold as well).

Some thoughts on the list:
Brainstorm is still insane
Playing 4 push was sweet, more 1 mana removal is great
Collective brutality kinda sucked, maybe not enough to remove but it wasn't as good as I hoped
Meren was INSANE against the fair decks now that miracales is gone
Painful truths main was sweet
Multiple leovolds was sweet
Playing deathrite was awesome, especially against lands round 1, and not being able to be punished by terminus
Force of will was also great against Show and Tell and lands and in general, card is great.

Wall of text theory-craft discussion below

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I don't plan on pooping out a mediocre 2-3 mana dude on T2-3 necessarily, I don't want to be proactive in the early game if I don't have any means of acceleration. I want to be the control player in the early game, and T2 decay is a perfectly legitimate option for that role.
Without top I want to reduce the amount of nonsense I play in the deck, because I want to be able to have live draws throughout the game.
Even when I play a 2 drop like ooze, I consider the guy a late game card to steal a win after eating 2 full graveyards, or like a desperate mean of life gain when I need it. That's why I play ooze pretty much only in GB and BUG, because I need the life gain. As a normal 2 drop in sneak fit or rhino fit the card is very mediocre in my experience. I don't even consider ooze a decent gy hate card because it's soo slow.

I played dryad arbor a lot in the past, and in the end I decided it's a bad use of a land slot. If you play SFM and/or Meren then Arbor becomes a legitimate option, but since I believe none of those 2 cards are particularly good to have in the deck I play, I won't play arbor anymore.

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My view of Nic Fit continues to evolve and @rubblekill helps me see a contrasting playstyle/view. Neither of us hold a "better" or superior way to play the deck.
I can distill my Nic Fit piloting during T1-3 down to two primary goals: I want to 1) rapidly accelerate my mana and 2) force the opponent to become a lame duck (strategic dead-end).

@rubblekill, I think you need "mediocre" 2 and 3 drops to an extent because they help with what I identify as goal #1: rapidly accelerating mana. IMO, an early Green Sun's Zenith is just a mechanism to grab Arbor, Vet, and DRS in the early game. In a pinch it can grab Sakura (if played and/or strategically needed to reach goal #1). I never worry about using a zenith for these little guys. Without them, I'm screwed. Zenith cycles back into the deck, so there are functionally <= 4 copies of it in the deck while you play.

As for forcing your opponent into a dead-end, I can see the arguments for/against numerous cards. The easiest one to understand is Deed, which fundamentally ruins the day for most legacy decks. Ideally, I drop an accelerated deed turn 2 or 3, wipe the table, and move on with business. Removal spells like decay, stp, fatal push, pulse, etc all do the same thing: they impede the opponent from accomplishing his or her task. This is where I agree in broad brush-strokes about "wanting to be the control player in the early game". I'd argue you need some amount of "value" cards that could x-for-1 your opponent early. I'd also argue for the deck to include a critical mass of cards to reach goal #2 (otherwise you're putting all your eggs in the "deed or bust" basket).

@Medicore Folks: I wouldn't look down on Mr. Ooze as an early 2-drop so quickly. Early, he usually forces an unfavorable combat for the opponent. Lots of decks do not want to trade x/2's. The longer he stays on the table, the better his odds of growing as a threat + gaining me life. Against opposing DRS + Goyfs, GY things, he's a major factor in achieving goal #2. From my perspective, if all Ooze did was prevent 1 DRS activation -- which then translated into the opponent not being able to perform his or her ideal sequence -- he successfully did his job. Ooze doesn't have to be the end-game hero (although we are all aware he DOES dominate late if given the resources). 99% of the time I'd rock 1 Ooze maindeck because he serves an early game role as a 2-drop with relevant late-game potential. The worst thing that could happen to Ooze is him being countered or shot in the face with removal. There are also corner-cases where Ooze comes out as fodder for an immediate Therapy. Sometimes you need a 2 or 3 drop to simply be fuel for flashbacks. Nevertheless, all of these points indicate how Ooze (and by virtue, the other "mediocre" early drops) accomplish goal #2 on a broad-level. Let the dorks take the fall, strip the opponent of relevant cards (in hand or on the table), and give your later bombs some strategic breathing room.

I think BUG has access to the best 2 drop for Nic Fit in Baleful Strix. Deathtouch, cantrips itself, and synergizes with a variety of decision trees in the BUG gameplan.

Of course, each game of Nic Fit is different. From my perspective, if I'm only accomplishing 1 of the 2 goals in the early game (ie; only accelerating without interaction OR only nuking everything the opponent plays sans ramp), the deck actually isn't doing what it should. I'm not fully preparing myself for life at T4. What you do at T4 is up to you. I've been soul-searching for how I'd want to proceed from that juncture onward. Sneak-Fit is a great example of the mid/late game plan I'd like to implement. It can play the default GBx "this is an awkward card for legacy decks to face" gameplan or chuck OP bruisers at the opponent via Sneak Attack while simultaneously gaining value (Emraku, Titans, etc). In terms of the end-game itself...I've seen 4C Nic Fit do ridiculous shit, Spaghetti Fit have hilarious moments, ultra-grindy Junk Fit setup lockdown loops with recurring nightmare, and ScapeFit go off with Burning Wish. Then we have this thread's Nyx Fit concept, Jund Fit, Pod Fit, BUG Walker Fit, etc. The cards used during the end-game don't matter. It's surviving to that mid/late game that means so much. And I believe doing so requires you accomplish those 2 main goals listed above.

Green is the primary way you accomplish goal #1 in any flavor of Nic Fit. With Top's exit from the format, you're more or less banking on Zenith and dorks to ramp.
Goal #2 is where card slots matter. Do you want more removal spells? Recursive, grindy spells? Value spells (x-for-1)?

Notice that I do not include "draw additional cards" or "filter the library" as a goal. I think knowledge of the library + card advantage is what helps all top legacy decks become great (see: beginning of SE Fit discussion), but said concepts are not imperative to Nic Fit's early gameplan.

hnggg, loving the deep analysis (I mean it)

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Originally Posted by Dalton!

Commune with the gods searches emrakul(and erything else), Sneak Attack and Deed. Could that be a thing?

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I had a guy in Jund-Fit Sneak-Emmy me. I still ended up winning though (haha)

He did:
* Sneak
> Fierce Empath
> Emrakul

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I had a guy in Jund-Fit Sneak-Emmy me. I still ended up winning though (haha)

He did:
* Sneak
> Fierce Empath
> Emrakul

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Sometimes one emrakul ist not enough.:laugh:

Can someone explain why night's whisperer is played over painful truth? Is it because of the lower costs?

Didn't realize first that commune puts the cards in the grave. I toyed a bit with the new Lili and her reanimation but didn't Liked the result.

1 diabolic intent
2 painful truth
2 tracker
This ist what compensates the top in my Sneak List for me.

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Originally Posted by Warden

I think BUG has access to the best 2 drop for Nic Fit in Baleful Strix. Deathtouch, cantrips itself, and synergizes with a variety of decision trees in the BUG gameplan.

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I agree that Strix is better, but I wouldn't count out either SFM or Dark Confidant. I've been playing with Bob for quite a while now and he made my Rhino list even. The card is quite good. And SFM of course has great synergy with Arbor, and is all around powerful.