[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

I'd caution against a toolbox without the box. Without some way of organizing your tools and picking out what you need for the job at hand, you're left with a jumbled mess.

If you have singletons of utility creatures, you need to have a way of drawing into them reliably. By virtue of only running 1-2, you reduce the chances of drawing them when you don't want them. By the same token, you also reduce the chances of drawing them when you do want them.

Meathooks isn't Maverick. There is no toolbox framework within which to put 1-ofs and 2-ofs. Much like Merfolk, we just choose the best creatures and run many copies of them. Much like Merfolk, doing anything else reduces the consistency of our deck.

Re: Sidewinder in particular, it's a bit easier to explain. The only thing Sidewinder does is to discourage blocks. If you wanted to avoid combat, just run a third Winged Sliver. Or compare to Plated, which always works and saves you from damage-based sweepers.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

I'd caution against a toolbox without the box. Without some way of organizing your tools and picking out what you need for the job at hand, you're left with a jumbled mess.

If you have singletons of utility creatures, you need to have a way of drawing into them reliably. By virtue of only running 1-2, you reduce the chances of drawing them when you don't want them. By the same token, you also reduce the chances of drawing them when you do want them.

Meathooks isn't Maverick. There is no toolbox framework within which to put 1-ofs and 2-ofs. Much like Merfolk, we just choose the best creatures and run many copies of them. Much like Merfolk, doing anything else reduces the consistency of our deck.

Re: Sidewinder in particular, it's a bit easier to explain. The only thing Sidewinder does is to discourage blocks. If you wanted to avoid combat, just run a third Winged Sliver. Or compare to Plated, which always works and saves you from damage-based sweepers.

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This is a fair argument, another thing is with library manipulation it is more likely you will hit the Sliver you are looking for and some slivers you really don't want to hit multiples of (like Talon, Winged, and Quilled Sliver), they are there as singletons so you don't draw multiple and while not tutorable can be found through ponder/brainstorm. Save the enlightened tutor toolbox post board the deck is not a toolbox deck without reliable ways to tutor

the Sidewinders were Plated Slivers, but I realized that Plated Sliver, while good, did nothing for the deck where as Sidewinder Sliver acts as Talon Sliver + Winged Sliver in most scenarios

I guess to summarize I am trying to increase the effectiveness of the slivers while not having a bunch of creatures that just sit there and do nothing, but add another Sliver to the board because I already have that effect in place (with the exception of Crystalline Sliver)

Although I may test 3 winged sliver and leave the last 4 slivers as singletons as, while I do consistently draw him I need more to help recover from board wipes

So -1 Sidewinder Sliver +1 Winged Sliver

In my experience Plated actually does a lot for the deck. Goblins is on the way back, and it profitably blocks Lackey. It also gets your slivers out of range of Fire/Ice and Forked Bolt very quickly.

I actually had good results in the past with 2 Plateds main, and 2 more in the board that came in against Goblins and against Combo (oddly enough) when I really just wanted a clock faster and already had a lot of disruption main. (basically I was siding out 4 StP and bringing in 2 Spell Pierce and 2 Plated)

Plated >>>>> Sidewinder

http://mythicspoiler.com/m14/

Slivers being printed soon. I don't see any ones worth playing yet, but perhaps this deck could see a resurgence?

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Originally Posted by Caspid

http://mythicspoiler.com/m14/

Slivers being printed soon. I don't see any ones worth playing yet, but perhaps this deck could see a resurgence?

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Considering Merfolk isn't making waves right now and is basically this deck plus a stable manabase, I'd think not.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Considering Merfolk isn't making waves right now and is basically this deck plus a stable manabase, I'd think not.

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I dunno, depends if a relevant cantriping or 1cmc sliver get printed. I think that's the problem now - the Slivers lords are actually much better with Crystalline Sliver.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

I dunno, depends if a relevant cantriping or 1cmc sliver get printed. I think that's the problem now - the Slivers lords are actually much better with Crystalline Sliver.

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Yeah, that and the mana is awkward for meathooks.

I wouldn't get excited about Slivers unless they print something that lets you drop a color (or two) and leverage it against Crystalline Sliver's shroud. Even then, cards like Geist of Saint Traft make me wonder why it's worth overextending into a Terminus or similar non-targeted removal, when in the same colors I could just play one bamf and win the day with card drawing and control.

It's a well traveled sentiment, but I agree with Aggro-zombies - until they print a thing that actually makes Slivers more attractive, anyone seriously considering rocking a Counter-Sliver deck should take a hard look at Merfolk first, it does virtually everything Slivers ever did that was worth doing but in one color. More p/t boosting guys, easier control; you might make an argument for Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile versus Dismember, but there's a bunch of intangibles to get into and at that point you may as well start asking whether or not it's just stronger to play Tundra in Merfolk, because it's still the better deck.

Here's my issue with Slivers:

There are two ways for a deck to become bad: the Affinity way, or the Rifter way. The Affinity way is where your deck is a linear based around an uncommon theme; your deck gets bad over time because you only get new cards for it once in a blue moon while other decks get good cards more often. The Rifter way is where your deck is an answer to a specific metagame, making your deck bad as soon as that metagame no longer exists. Slivers is more of the latter kind of deck than the former, despite the fact that it has a strong linear theme. It arose as a creature-heavy answer to Goblins at a time when no other such answer existed; today, Goblins is not nearly popular enough to spawn such specific answer decks, and there are a plethora of other swarm-based aggro decks that do not suffer from Slivers’ twin weaknesses of terrible mana and needing to assemble a huge mass of individually low-quality creatures.

If Slivers were bad in the Affinity sense, there’s a chance that new printings in M14 could temporarily rescue it, but I don’t think that will be the case even if you set aside the unlikelihood of there being a sliver good enough. The problem is that there’s just no push in the current metagame for a deck like Slivers – you can tell because Merfolk is not making serious headway despite the omnipresence of blue decks and its supposed ability to hold its own versus combo and control. Since Merfolk is Slivers with better mana, I can’t imagine what new printings they could do to sufficiently differentiate the metagame function of this deck from the function of Merfolk. The vigilance sliver isn’t really it because you’re probably not holding your own on defense for a long time anyway: Batterskull requires either a lord and a Talon Sliver or three lords to beat in combat, while a typical 4/5 Tarmogoyf (land, instant, sorcery, creature) requires a whopping three lords or a lord and a Talon Sliver to kill. I mean, granted, in any of these scenarios you could just put what guys you have in front of those cards and accept the loses you take, but your deck is predicated on having a lot of dudes on the board to work so that’s not really something you want to be doing too often. You could run your own Tarmogoyfs, of course – but once you start cutting Slivers for real creatures, why not just go all the way and not run any Slivers at all?

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Yeah, that and the mana is awkward for meathooks.

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Well it did get a lot better when Cavern of Souls was printed...

Coff..coff..

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10147&iddeck=73937

No Caverns?

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Originally Posted by Claymore

No Caverns?

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Nop,and no Wasteland, i know the caverns is highly needed,but that manabase looks really strong...

I like the Relic of Progenitus in main. it cantrips in the worst case escenario. help a lot vs Reanimator,Dredge,Shut down Nimble Mongoose,Tarmogoyf,Deathrite Shaman.Snapcasters,Lingering souls...seems pretty strong.

take a look at this baby:
Predatory Sliver 1G
Sliver creatures you control get +1/+1
2/2

Seems nice to have 12 "lords" at the 2cc slot. I've been thinking about this potential:

4 Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 GSZ

12 Sliver lords
4 Crystlline Sliver

20-22 lands
4 Mutavault
8-11 fetches
7-8 other lands

But now I'm drawing a blank after that. Are winged, plated, and virulent sliver worth the slots? How much disruption do you want 8 free counters? Do you run a 4th color? Do you run StP or PtE? What about Ponder and Library?

I really like GSZ if you're running Virulent Sliver, but I'm not sure if the poison ability stacks or not.

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Originally Posted by zulander

I really like GSZ if you're running Virulent Sliver, but I'm not sure if the poison ability stacks or not.

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Yes, it stacks.

Not having any form of evasion is pretty weak. I mean, right now you are running around the same number of lords a Merfolk deck could run, except two of those lords grant a form of evasion and none of yours do.

Plated is less important in a format where Goblin Lackey is no longer king.

EDIT: To be clear, a poison-focused Sliver deck probably does not run any lords at all, since Poisonous is a triggered ability and doesn't gain anything from a power boost (unlike Infect). That deck probably just focuses on getting a bunch of hasty Virulent Slivers in play and then connecting with them as quickly as possible, although I'm not sure it's any better than a mono-green or green-blue Infect deck.

I actually brewed up CounterSliver back when Deathrite and LSouls convinced me that graveyard hate may become a Legacy maindeck item. It was pretty balanced, but nothing special.
With more lords, I think it has a chance just due to it's enormous clock and power. Here's how I'd build it now.

4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Phantasmal Image
2 Winged Sliver

4 Aether Vial

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 StP

3 Mutavault
17 other Lands (including plenty of fetches and a few Caverns)

I'm all for Relic of Progenitus in the maindeck. But the only flex slots in this list, in my opinion, are 4x FoW and 2x Ponder.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Yes, it stacks.

Not having any form of evasion is pretty weak. I mean, right now you are running around the same number of lords a Merfolk deck could run, except two of those lords grant a form of evasion and none of yours do.

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Okay then, maybe no reason to run VS. Btw there is evasion in the form of Winged Sliver. 12 sliver lords + 4 Wing Sliver sounds like fun to me.

Also I think it's correct to play 2 GSZ in the main so that you can board in 2x harmonic sliver and fetch them up.

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Originally Posted by zulander

Btw there is evasion in the form of Winged Sliver. 12 sliver lords + 4 Wing Sliver sounds like fun to me.

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I meant that as a response to, "Is Winged Sliver still worth the slots?"

I would honestly not cut Ponder from your list, Mirris. You really, really need to hit a Winged Sliver in a timely manner to start doing damage. Your creatures get stonewalled by Tarmogoyf until you have 4+ lords in play, so taking to the skies is really the only way you can win.

I don't know if I like Phantasmal Image in this deck. Also, are creature tutors worth it? And I think Sliversmith warrants a SB slot (maybe 2x) to board in against other aggro-rush lists as well as control decks.

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Originally Posted by zulander

I don't know if I like Phantasmal Image in this deck. Also, are creature tutors worth it? And I think Sliversmith warrants a SB slot (maybe 2x) to board in against other aggro-rush lists as well as control decks.

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A card-disadvantage guy with a tap ability that is not itself a Sliver? No bueno.

You'd be better off with Talon Sliver or the flanking Sliver versus aggro, and you are pretty much always going to fold vs. control because your deck only works when you over-commit.