[Deck] Ichorid

The thing is that by the time you've reanimated either Kelpie or Sage, you've probably used up most of the flashback cards in your graveyard that you're going to be casting that game. (Remember, there are only 6-7 manaless flashback cards in the deck, at least one of which you just used.and you're using DA to dredge first.) And while Kelpie is better as an engine, Sage just gets there with the 15-18 cards off the top from the start.

I cut Salvage, 1 return, and 1 thug for 2 more studies and one more DA. My sideboard looks like the following:

4 Leyline
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodfall Primus.

The reason for the split between Chalice and Needle is that I'm not sure which one is better, given that Pithing Needle answers on-the-board Crypts and shuts down other problem permanents, and Chalice gets Crypt and Explosives simultaneously, can get Extirpate, and gives me something else to combat combo besides racing/getting lucky with Therapies. My boarding plan is as follows:

vs decks with a bunch of creatures who are siding in Crypt
-1 FKZ
-1 Cephalid Sage
-1 Ichorid
-2 LED
-2 DA
-1 Careful Study
+4 Leyline of the Void
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Chalice of the Void

vs decks with a bunch of creatures who are siding in Leyline
-1 FKZ
-1 Cephalid Sage
-1 Ichorid
-2 LED
-3 DA
-2 Careful Study
+4 Leyline of the Void
+4 Chain of Vapor
+2 Ray of Revelation

vs. non-creature decks with Crypts
-1 FKZ
-1 Sage
-2 Careful Study
(-1 LED on the play)
-1 DA(-2 on the play)
-1 Thug
+4 Chain of Vapor
+2 Pithing Needle
(+2 Chalice on the Play)

vs. non-creature decks with Leyline
-1 FKZ
-1 Sage
-2 Careful Study
-1 DA
-1 Thug
+4 Chain of Vapor
+2 Ray of Revelation

vs. Extirpates and Combo
-2 Careful Study
+2 Chalice of the Void

And the one Primus is in there to beat up on random prison, enchantress and such by killing two permanents in one turn at least. Probably you pitch a study for it.

Does that look like a good plan? I might go to 4/0 on the Chalice/Needle split, but we'll see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Sideboard Plan

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There is no reason to ever sideboard out Lions Eye Diamond. Never. Ever.

Calling all Ichorid experts!!!

I am building a test gauntlet and would like to get a representative decklist for Ichorid from the experts who know it best...so I don't have to become an expert in 15+ decks by reading 100's of pages of discussion just to build the lists.

I'm testing UWb Cunning Landstill, so hopefully you would be able to provide 1) A solid (most popular?/agreed upon choices?/consistent t8 placements?) decklist, 2) A brief gameplan/goals pre/post board, and 3) How/what to board vs. UWb Cunning Landstill.

This will greatly speed up the testing process and help to prevent design/play/boarding mistakes.

Thanks tons,
-TG

Reveillark seems like an absolutely bomb Dread Return target - any thoughts? Sacrifice it to Therapy and you get any combination of two Golgari Grave-Troll, FKZ, or Cephalid Sage. Is it win more?

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

Reveillark seems like an absolutely bomb Dread Return target - any thoughts? Sacrifice it to Therapy and you get any combination of two Golgari Grave-Troll, FKZ, or Cephalid Sage. Is it win more?

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It seems interesting I am surprised no one has though about this yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

Reveillark seems like an absolutely bomb Dread Return target - any thoughts? Sacrifice it to Therapy and you get any combination of two Golgari Grave-Troll, FKZ, or Cephalid Sage. Is it win more?

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Its a waste of deck space. There are like 900 cool Dread Return targets. I really only see the need for three..

1) A creature that helps the decks dredge engine. This is needed if Dread Return is playable but you didnt dredge into enough Bridges or Ichorids.

Cephalid Sage

2) A creature that supports the decks kill condition. This is generally the zombie tokens first and formost. Since Bridge often creates enough tokens all thats left is to give them haste so sorcery speed removal cant become a problem.

This is another problem with alot of peoples sideboarding options. You dont want to throw away wins because you remove Zealot against Red Thresh and get Pyroclasmed.

Fortunatly we have a creature that even gives them a small power boost.

Flame Kin Zealot

3) A creature that can remove perms. When you can't kill your opponent because of something you didnt Cabal Therapy on time you need Dread Return to act as an answer to it. Ichorid actually got another good card for this effect, whether or not its a small update.

Woodfall Primus

Any other reason to Dread Return is to act as win condition number three. You can simply animate a very large troll. a 9/9+ troll is usually monstrous enough to save you deck space playing shit like Akroma.

Well said Bane, However minor nit pick. I have tested woodfall primus, and Angel of dispare. Brittany is so much better simply because when you dont return her, Ichorid can feast on her bald skull.:laugh: Primus is just not worth it, Yes I know about the cabal therepy for more men and so on, but baldy is just better in more situations. Hes a win more really.

Has anyone tested undiscovered paradise as a replacement for city or gemstone mine? It seems like its drawback could be useful when you're trying to get eight cards in hand.

You want to hit 2 lands. That doesnt help you do that. Its bad plain and simple. Honestly the real discussion is the count of BT's to Studies. tipicaly 7 is average but I could see going to 8 total.

When are you going to need Primus? Give me 2 situations when you are going to need a creature that removes 2 permanents. I think Brittany is much better than Primus because of reasons already stated (Ichorid). I understand that you can sac it to Therapy and still have a beater, but is this more necessary than evasion?

The only thing I can think of is double Prison effects, and if that happens, I'll bet that they run 3sphere (read: white stax), at which point you are screwed anyway. You could wipe out a couple goyfs, but that's rediculous anyway, because if you kept a hand that allows them to get to turn 3 or later playing against something that plays goyf (other than Breakfast), you were stupid and kept a bad hand; also against breakfast you just side in needles and Leylines, and you can even side in CoV to bounce their Ghoul.

My point is, when is Primus better than Baldy for all purposes relevant?

Pce,

--DC

My logic for siding out LEDs is that removing Imps or trolls removes consitiency, and removing LEDs only takes a bit of speed.

FKZ does nothing versus clasm/cave-in, etc, because it's only +1/+1 for one of your turns, and if they have an instant they can just wrath your team in response.

There are other decks where you'd like to get rid of multiple problem permanents. For instance, Enchantress, Stompy variants, Lands! variants, and the 8-prison decks currently floating around.

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Originally Posted by sunshine

Has anyone tested undiscovered paradise as a replacement for city or gemstone mine? It seems like its drawback could be useful when you're trying to get eight cards in hand.

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Yeah, I actually play a Paradise in the City-slot. It has no disadvantage as you can drop other land first, if you need to get to two mana and helps the discard plan. Furthermore it doesn't ping you everytime you use it, which may become crucial in your bad MUs (aka: heavy aggro.decs). I think about going up to two, as the chance that you get both of them in your opening seven is marginal.

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Originally Posted by undone

You want to hit 2 lands. That doesnt help you do that. Its bad plain and simple.

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Bla...

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

vs decks with a bunch of creatures who are siding in Crypt
-1 FKZ
-1 Cephalid Sage
-1 Ichorid
-2 LED
-2 DA
-1 Careful Study
+4 Leyline of the Void
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Chalice of the Void

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First, why leave the Dread Returns in?

Second, I was up against this situation (creatures/crypt) twice this weekend at a local tournament playing against Zoo and Affinity and I knew both had Crypts for me. Affinity is just an awful matchup but I feel like my boarding is what really hurt me. Game 1 he went Land, Vial, go and I went Coliseum, LED, win. Game 2 I brought in 4 LotV, 3 P. Needle, 2 Ancient Grudge and 1 Ancestor's Chosen (would not recommend this). Because I was bringing in Chosen I left both DRs in and brought out FKZ, Sage, 1 Ichorid, 1 DA, 2 Therapy, 2 Study, 1 Thug, and 1 PImp. I started with Leyline and some relevant stuff and kept. He opened with land, worker, double crypt. By the time I found a needle he had thopter, frogmite, ravager, 2x cranial plating and 1 crypt left. I played the needle and he let it resolve. I (foolishly) named crypt instead of plating and died the next turn. For game 3 I went -2 Grudge +1 PImp +1 Study. I was able to lead with turn 1 needle on crypt, but lost a few turns later to Ravager and 3x Disciple of the Vault. The more I thought about it the more I feel like I boarded away the match. What’s the proper boarding strategy for this matchup?

The zoo matchup was much more winnable except G1 I made poor mulliganing decisions and G2 Ancestor's Chosen would have gotten there (he topdecked crypt right afterwards) if I remembered how First Strike worked. I believe that matchup I went +3 Pithing Needle, +4 Chain of Vapor, +1 Ancestor's Chosen -1 FKZ, -1 Sage, -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug, -2 Therapy, -1 Study, -1 DA.

Anyway, those matches made me realize how poor and haphazard my boarding strategy is. I saw Ozymandias's post this morning but I'm more interested in what cards are for what matchup and more importantly what cards are not. My current board is 4 Leyline, 4 Chain of Vapor, 3 Pithing Needle, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Ray of Revelation, 1 Ancestor's Chosen. I play Needle over Chalice because I see a lot of Survival and not much combo. My problem is that I fall into the "boarding of cool things" where I bring in (for example) Leyline to stop Survival, Chain of Vapor against Crypt and other extraneous SB cards that end up diluting the deck and cost me matches. My question is this: How strictly should I be boarding? Should I bring in only Leyline/Grudge against Affinity? Only Needle against decks packing Crypt/Survival? Basically, if more than one of Leyline, Chain or Needle can help the matchup, is it worth diluting the deck?

I leave in Dread Return because it can still reanimate a giant Grave-Troll.

Second, I moved to four Chalices because I saw a lot of combo in my metagame.

Third, I feel that you should bring in about twice the hate your opponent has in order to make sure you get one when you needed it. For instance, my dredge-playing opponent would have lost a game where I started with 2 leylines had he not managed to hit two Chain of Vapor in the first turns.

Basically, Leylines are for creatures, Chalices are for Crypts and Extirpates, Rays are for Leylines, and Chains are for Leylines and other problem permanents.

It's probably better to board in 4 Leyline and 4 Chalice vs. Affinity, and then just play around the one crypt they probably have.

Does anyone see Demigod of Revenge having any potential in Ichorid?
It seems like a pretty good card to use with dread return and might improve the possibility of a turn 1 kill.

Demigod of Revenge only functions when it's played from your hand, not put into play. It has no place in Ichorid.

Basicaly unless they print a new DR target there should be a big thing saying "WE HAVE TRIED EVERY CREATURE STOP ASKING ABOUT THIS IS A COOL DR TARGET"

Dreadreturn has the 2 best targets. Cep Sage and FKZ. Then there are decks testing a 3rd, with great sucsess. The third target is tipicaly Akroma, (red or white) Sismic sky swallower or some other resiliant randomly huge 7-9 drop

Personaly I believe SSS to be the best 3rd target however White akroma is not to be overlooked. She can smash face. NOW. and she also wants to kill goblins all by herself.

The last DR target that is any good is Angel of dispare. Brittany can be eaten by ichorid, and can kill ghostly prison/random hate.

There are good questions and then there are bad ones. Dread return targets should be kept to the 3rd one. The only exception would be in vintage and potentialy legacy where River kap should be tested because they have 4 DRs and 4 Therapy to draw more cards.

FKZ is non negotiable. Sage vs River is essentialy a "How many Flashback cards do you run" issue. And the last one is akroma vs baldy most of the time I would rather have baldy, but akroma improves the meh goblins MU alot.

Side note: the majority of this post is intended to stop the 3-6 posts per page that are "have you tried this" stuff it then leads to 3-6 posts to answer this.

The big question is what is your board vs other combo decks if you dont run chalice. Do you bring in Echoing truth to prevent goblins from killing you? What about leylines?

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Originally Posted by abbeyroad

Does anyone see Demigod of Revenge having any potential in Ichorid?
It seems like a pretty good card to use with dread return and might improve the possibility of a turn 1 kill.

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Read the card again. And even if it did what you think it did, it's still not worth it.

Game 1 against an unknown opponent, do you choose to play or draw?

A fair portion of the metagame is made up of Threshold and Landstill variants, and there are alot of other decks that pack Force of Will & co. Against these decks I will almost always keep an 7-card hand with a dredger and at least start out by going DDD. On the play, you'd be waiting an extra turn before DDD.

Choosing to draw rather than play could hurt you against something with Stax or another combo deck. But, these decks are a smaller portion of the metagame than those that run counters.

Is this a metagame call?

I've said it once, I'll say it again: Choosing to draw in a format with Daze is just plain stupid.

And I'll also say this again: DDD doesn't work very well if you're taking mulligans, which you do at least once in 5 games with this deck (because the probability of not drawing a dredger in your opening 7 is ~22% with 11 dredgers IIRC).

DDD works against Threshold and Landstill (preboard very well) - this doesn't mean you don't like it if you can resolve Putrid Imp or Careful Study against those decks. DDD after a mulligan equals Time Walks for your opponent, so if you take mulligans, you'd even more like to resolve Putrid Imp or Careful Study (or LED, even if not backed up by anything) to at least start the dredging in your second turn. Giving Threshold 4 additional free counters that don't even need a card to be pitched is not good. Against Landstill it's not that important (you only give them Brainstorm into Force), but one Time Walk more (i.e. one landdrop for your opponent) still might make that Pernicious Deed or that Wrath of God or that Cunning Wish for Extirpate he's holding relevant.

And, choosing to draw is wrong against every Aggro and Combo deck.

Conclusion: Even if your meta consists exclusively of Threshold and Landstill, choosing to draw is always the wrong decision.