[Deck] Death and Taxes

What do people think about the splash green versions? I was wondering if they were worth exploring, mostly because Qasali Pridemage seems amazing all the time, and Living wish seems really strong. I also wanted to know what people thought about War Priest of Thune now that CB Top enlightened tutor decks with cards like Humility/Moat/White Propaganda are floating around and starting to be seen as good.

187 creatures basically always seem amazing in this deck and I think they should be explored more. Atm most lists are just running Mangara, stoneforge mystics and oblivion rings which favorably interact with flickerwisp, but I think there is some opportunity for other cards. Maybe I just haven't played the deck enough, but I want to explore where this deck can go a bit more.

I don't see War Priest working out for us. What does it do that Mangara and ORing don't already do?

And as always, what would you take out for it? There's always opportunity for new cards, but the hard part is figuring out what to take out. This makes my first question more relevant: it has to do something so much better than one of our current cards that it actually justifies a replacement. See my sig. :p

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Originally Posted by Morim_Brightsmoke

What do people think about the splash green versions? I was wondering if they were worth exploring, mostly because Qasali Pridemage seems amazing all the time, and Living wish seems really strong. I also wanted to know what people thought about War Priest of Thune now that CB Top enlightened tutor decks with cards like Humility/Moat/White Propaganda are floating around and starting to be seen as good.

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It seems that if you would splash green you start losing the core engine that makes D&T what it is. Your deck list starts looking like GW Maverick. Then you are in the wrong the thread...

Also, Pridemage and War Priest do nothing about Humility. They do not get their come into play abilities, and Pridemage loses his ability to blow stuff up.

When War Priest of Thune enters the battlefield, you may destroy target enchantment. It is not 'as', it is 'when'; therefore, Humility stays. Creatures cannot get rid of Humility. But you are right, they would get all those other things.

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Originally Posted by Morim_Brightsmoke

What do people think about the splash green versions? I was wondering if they were worth exploring, mostly because Qasali Pridemage seems amazing all the time, and Living wish seems really strong. I also wanted to know what people thought about War Priest of Thune now that CB Top enlightened tutor decks with cards like Humility/Moat/White Propaganda are floating around and starting to be seen as good.

187 creatures basically always seem amazing in this deck and I think they should be explored more. Atm most lists are just running Mangara, stoneforge mystics and oblivion rings which favorably interact with flickerwisp, but I think there is some opportunity for other cards. Maybe I just haven't played the deck enough, but I want to explore where this deck can go a bit more.

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Considering how popular New Horizons is becoming, you may not want to expose your mana base with fetches and duals. I've played a few matches New Horizon's vs. DnT and the mono-white build crushed it like a bug everytime.

@unicoerner: That is a good question about Flickerwisp before Mangara. I am not sure Kirby got the same meaning from it that I did. Unfortunately it does no work either way. When you put the Flickerwisp ability on the stack targeting Mangara and then respond with Mangara, the Flickerwisp gets put under Mangara on the stack and therefor happens afterward.

i maybe have to agree with morim brightsmoke, he is right about the fact that we can choose among a lot of quite good utility creatures even in mono white

just for example, what happened to good old samurai of the pale curtain?

what i want to say is that most builds are using or burrenton forge tender, or goldmeadow harrier, Blazelix used canonists instead in the mainboard, and actually that decision does seem all other than bad, specially in my eyes, since i am not satisfied with both forge tender and harrier, they are both just not my playstyle

i will try out in future

- 3x forge tender
+ 3x canonist

and

- 3x forge tender
- 1x jötun grunt
+2x samurai of the pale curtain
+2x student of warfare

what do you think about that?
i simply think we should try out more options, in fact war priest is not that bad of an idea, if your meta is heavy on enchantress, he is surely a lovely little guy
and we are probably the only deck that actually can adapt its mainboard to face a specific meta, so we could have an advantage from the beginning

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i maybe have to agree with morim brightsmoke, he is right about the fact that we can choose among a lot of quite good utility creatures even in mono white

just for example, what happened to good old samurai of the pale curtain?

what i want to say is that most builds are using or burrenton forge tender, or goldmeadow harrier, Blazelix used canonists instead in the mainboard, and actually that decision does seem all other than bad, specially in my eyes, since i am not satisfied with both forge tender and harrier, they are both just not my playstyle

i will try out in future

- 3x forge tender
+ 3x canonist

and

- 3x forge tender
- 1x jötun grunt
+2x samurai of the pale curtain
+2x student of warfare

what do you think about that?

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so your currently running 6 forge-tenders? I don't really like the Samurai of the Pale Curtain over the Grunts. Mainly because the Grunts are able to deal with every card in the graveyard and the Samurai is not. That makes the Grunt more versatile in shutting down things like Tarmogoyf where as the Samurai cannot do that.

Additionally I prefer Figure of Destiny over Student of Warfare due to the fact that it can be pumped at instant speed and gets way bigger overall.

@ Finn: I would suggest emptying your Private Message box on this site as your box here is overflowing and it is impossible for anyone to send you new messages....

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i maybe have to agree with morim brightsmoke, he is right about the fact that we can choose among a lot of quite good utility creatures even in mono white

just for example, what happened to good old samurai of the pale curtain?

what i want to say is that most builds are using or burrenton forge tender, or goldmeadow harrier, Blazelix used canonists instead in the mainboard, and actually that decision does seem all other than bad, specially in my eyes, since i am not satisfied with both forge tender and harrier, they are both just not my playstyle

i will try out in future

- 3x forge tender
+ 3x canonist

and

- 3x forge tender
- 1x jötun grunt
+2x samurai of the pale curtain
+2x student of warfare

what do you think about that?

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Switching the BFT for Canonists in your mainboard should work out, depending on your meta. Blue decks enjoy playing cantrips and library manipulation spells (Lim-Dul's Vault) and there are various ritual decks that dislike Ethersworn Canonist. BFT can answer burn, goblins, some of zoo's removal while Harrier taps down big fattys. Overall, a 2/2 body does fit better in the curve of the deck with the vials and the disruption is favorable even after the recent ban, that I run it in my version.

Regarding Samurai of the Pale Curtain, the card has been seeing zero to minimal play recently but could be popular once again. The card is non-synergistic with Jotun Grunt and Sword of Light and Shadow. SOTPC does answer graveyard recursion (academy ruins, Sword of the Meek) and abuse (*****, goyf, Terravore, etc.). The card should see more testing as I also considered it after facing multiple countertop thopter decks in my play area.

As for the Student of Warfare, I have had mixed responses about running the card. The card is a different Figure of Destiny and faces similar methods of removal. Both cards offer no disruption but can grow into a threat. I do not have much to say about Student of Warfare but would love to hear your analysis on the card.

Would not FoD be better against Zoo: gets to 4/4 faster than Student gets past 3/3?

Student of Warfare has first strike, so it can still deal with everything out of zoo but goyf - but they are both dying to burn, unlike Grunt. I don't really see the pressing need to play either student or fod. I can get behind playing some number of kitchen finks - at least they impact the board, unlike some random dude like harrier or bft.

SotPC has the same problem as any creature against thoptercountertop: humility. Still, if you can manage to resolve one of your o-rings against humility, it should work out well.

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Originally Posted by CaptShetz

Student of Warfare has first strike, so it can still deal with everything out of zoo but goyf - but they are both dying to burn, unlike Grunt. I don't really see the pressing need to play either student or fod. I can get behind playing some number of kitchen finks - at least they impact the board, unlike some random dude like harrier or bft.

SotPC has the same problem as any creature against thoptercountertop: humility. Still, if you can manage to resolve one of your o-rings against humility, it should work out well.

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You misunderstood me. Not that Student's 1st strike can not deal with all of Zoo save KotR and Goyf, but more to do with escaping their 12 removal spells(obv PtE excluded). Finks is a turn 4 attack turn 5 thru Vial. FoD comes down turn 1, is awesome in a war of attrition as a 1 drop due to it reaching 4/4(although 5 mana) and no drawbacks unlike Grunt. Over the choice of THOSE 2 which do you think is better across the field?

keep in mind you can in theory have Figure of Destiny pumped up to a 4/4 by turn 3 assuming you get it out on turn one and drew 3 plains in your opening hand or first 2 draws. Where as with Student of Warfare 7 pumps plus the first turn to play him to get him up to being a 4/4. Assuming you play him turn 1, pump him twice on turn 2, three times turn 3 and 2 more times on turn 4 that is an extra turn spent in pumping him into a 4/4.

Granted the Student of Warfare gets first strike and becomes a 3/3 with just 2 pumps, but really all that lets you do is eat Wild Nacatl and other relatively SMALL creatures easily enough. To really do the damage that you need to be able to do, you really need to pump the Student up to be able to do double strike damage and even then it dies to any 8/8 or bigger opponents.

What this deck really wants is an 8/8 first striker. To that end is why I highly suggest the Figure of Destiny. Unfortunately on its own the Figure of Destiny will not last very long. This is why I am heavily hoping for something that will help this deck deal with the threats posed by Zoo in Scars of Mirrodin. Something like a new cycle of "Sword of X and X" something that will give us access to protection from both Red and White in the same card, as well as something that gives protection from green in a separate card. As we desperately need both of these types of cards to survive in the new zoo heavy environment.

no i am not running 6 forge tenders :P, i just wanted to say i will first try one configuration, then the other one

besides Samurai is not that much antisynergistic with grunt, since only permanents won't get into the graveyard, but instants and sorcerys will, and the reason i suggested him was allready understood, graverecursion, specially recurring EE, which really are a pain for us
plus samurai has no real drawback, since grunt is the only graveyard relying creature we have which we can support anyway but i do not like grunt as a 3 of

about student, i have done a few testings and i have to say he is no lategame bomb, because pumping him needs to much time and mana, but he is really strong if he lands on turn 1 with being able tu pump him 2 times in turn 2, but actually i am not that satisfied with him yet, but probably i should do more testing

I think that of the two, Figure of Destiny and Student of Warfare I would prefer running Figure of Destiny for the sole reason that Figure of Destiny's pumping ability can be used at the end of my opponents turn with any and all left over mana that I didn't use during my or my opponents turns. That means that it is a more reliable method of using the mana, plus it gives me something to do with unused lands for that turn. The other advantage of the Figure in my mind is that it has more survivability over the other version and can even be used as a lategame threat if necessary which I don't think student of warfare can effectively be used as such.

@DalkonCledwin, thx for the inbox info. I did not know it was full.

IMO, Figure is superior to Student because its ability is not sorcery. I was going to list some advantages there, but there are so many. It is a world of difference. Even still, it is not a solution to any of the problems we have

Doesn't take out combo
Doesn't disrupt, reasonably get bigger than, or take out big, GY-dependent creatures
Doesn't provide card advantage for us
Doesn't beat Zoo or provide a reliable means to push them into our game plan.

I want to talk about that last one for a bit. I think we really need to buckle down and come up with a plan to beat Zoo consistently. Even online, I think Zoo is gaining ground. At my last count, I am not quite dead tied with Zoo since March. Let's improve that. I think we should completely abandon any serious design space that is intended to kill storm combo. So stuff like Canonist is not going in my lists. Well, I will keep on in my sb to fetch with tutors, but that is all. Beyond that I want all my cards to be less narrow. And I think we can afford to devote some extra design space to fighting Zoo.

The way I see it, the best plan for fighting Zoo is to get a critter equipped with a sword, but only if the remainder of the deck demands Zoo's removal. In other words, it won't work if Zoo is able to palm 2 Bolts and a Lavamancer activation for the turn you equip. You have to be prepared for the fact that he can get rid of the swords if he really wants to. On that note, Oblivion Ring will actively support the weapons by tempting his Grips and Pridemages. They stay. But what else can we use to get a sword on and fast - and on a protected creature.

I think an extra Mystic in the SB might be a good plan. I typically, but not always, win when I get equipment early and lose when I don't. Extra removal is something I am always looking for.
Refraction Trap
Condemn both seem reasonable to me in this role. Condemn would come in against a lot of decks, and that is a big help.

And I am definitely going to be keeping an eye on Cataclysm (sry, I have no recent results to report with this card)

I agree that FoD is superior to Student of Warfare. Growing at instant speed is important but both die to bolts. Student, however, dies to bolt or path when you're about to level it up. Both cards would work better if this deck was running Ranger of Eos, but that would make the deck more like White Weenie and not DnT. AggroSteve must be right that Student is no lategame bomb. Mangara lock or equipped fliers are this deck's lategame bombs and require Stoneforge Mystic to hit early and equipment to maintain your board position.

CaptShetz, that is a good point I had not thought about. The countertop thopter decks in my meta run one Moat in the maindeck and one in the sideboard. Roughly 1/3 of them run Humility in the sideboard. This is probably because of the rise of Zoo and not because of fattys like Progenitus and Emrakul (has flying anyways). Countertop Thopters seems relatively easy to hate out, so there must be another card we could use. I've been using Ravenous Trap but the best Countertop Thopter pilots know I am using that card. Early EE locks and Countertop locks is my bigger problem versus that deck.

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Originally Posted by Finn

@DalkonCledwin, thx for the inbox info. I did not know it was full.

IMO, Figure is superior to Student because its ability is not sorcery. I was going to list some advantages there, but there are so many. It is a world of difference. Even still, it is not a solution to any of the problems we have

Doesn't take out combo
Doesn't disrupt, reasonably get bigger than, or take out big, GY-dependent creatures
Doesn't provide card advantage for us
Doesn't beat Zoo or provide a reliable means to push them into our game plan.

I want to talk about that last one for a bit. I think we really need to buckle down and come up with a plan to beat Zoo consistently. Even online, I think Zoo is gaining ground. At my last count, I am not quite dead tied with Zoo since March. Let's improve that. I think we should completely abandon any serious design space that is intended to kill storm combo. So stuff like Canonist is not going in my lists. Well, I will keep on in my sb to fetch with tutors, but that is all. Beyond that I want all my cards to be less narrow. And I think we can afford to devote some extra design space to fighting Zoo.

The way I see it, the best plan for fighting Zoo is to get a critter equipped with a sword, but only if the remainder of the deck demands Zoo's removal. In other words, it won't work if Zoo is able to palm 2 Bolts and a Lavamancer activation for the turn you equip. You have to be prepared for the fact that he can get rid of the swords if he really wants to. On that note, Oblivion Ring will actively support the weapons by tempting his Grips and Pridemages. They stay. But what else can we use to get a sword on and fast - and on a protected creature.

I think an extra Mystic in the SB might be a good plan. I typically, but not always, win when I get equipment early and lose when I don't. Extra removal is something I am always looking for.
Refraction Trap
Condemn both seem reasonable to me in this role. Condemn would come in against a lot of decks, and that is a big help.

And I am definitely going to be keeping an eye on Cataclysm (sry, I have no recent results to report with this card)

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Hey Finn. What about Harm's Way? Works well against Lavamancer, Bolt, Chain Lightning and Tribal Flames, although it doesn't do anything against StP. Potentially a two-for-one in some circumstances.

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Originally Posted by justindz

Hey Finn. What about Harm's Way? Works well against Lavamancer, Bolt, Chain Lightning and Tribal Flames, although it doesn't do anything against StP. Potentially a two-for-one in some circumstances.

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the problem I have with Harm's Way is that it doesn't answer anything bigger than an X/2 creature. Which is a huge portion of the metagame. At least not without attacking and redirecting the damage done. It is an interesting combat trick for sure, but I don't think it is exactly what this deck wants to be doing.

Yeah, Harm's Way is much less powerful. Keep in Mind that StP and such can also be a 2-for-1 in combat: they block Grunt with two Nacatls/Apes, you remove one and the Grunt finishes the other.

I played D&T with a green splash some while ago and had some success with it. I am now trying the mono white version and would ask if anyone have ever tested Martyr of Sands as a sideboard card or maybe maindeck.