[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

13 Tutor/Win-Cons
3x Doomsday
1x Meditate
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
2x Infernal Tutor
2x Burning Wish
3x Mystical Tutor

10 Cantrips//Filtering
4x SDT
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

10 Protection Spells
4x Pyroblast
4x Duress
1x Chant
1x Krosan Grip

11 Mana Spells
4x Dark Rit
4x LED
1x Petal
1x Chrome Mox
1x Cabal Rit

16 Land
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp

15 Sideboard
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x EtW
1x Tendrils
1x IT
1x IGG
1x Grapeshot
1x Helm
1x Extirpate
2x Krosan Grip
2x Rushing River
1x Chant
1x Rebuild

Sideboard is largely untested, the maindeck is only a slight alteration on what I've been running for a while (the wishes are new). Once I get the Sideboard tweaked it's probably what I'll maintain from here on out. I'm going to try to get a tourney or two more in before I get rid of the list as I'm pretty sure I won't keep it after LED gets screwed by mana pools emptying. However, until then I'm still playing it.

how do you cast Chants off non-white sources?, off the lone petal? I'm considering on dropping white entire and focus just on REBs, Duress, Bounce/Grips against blue decks.

2 questions:
A. I don't get it. How does LED become weaker in this deck after the rules change?
B. What's the point of the singleton Chrome Mox? It seems like Petal will always be better as a singleton, and you're already running that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crz87

how do you cast Chants off non-white sources?, off the lone petal? I'm considering on dropping white entire and focus just on REBs, Duress, Bounce/Grips against blue decks.

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You don't. I have Scrubland and petal. Scrub can be fetched by all 8 fetches so I don't worry too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeroenC

2 questions:
A. I don't get it. How does LED become weaker in this deck after the rules change?
B. What's the point of the singleton Chrome Mox? It seems like Petal will always be better as a singleton, and you're already running that.

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A. It doesn't affect me because I don't use Ad Nauseam, but it still screws with D-Day stacks sometimes.

B. The chrome mox is a test card that I'm liking. It acts as land #17. Additionally, I can use it to get around moon effects for a long-term amount of time. The card disadvantage has actually helped in some situations by emptying my hand for me so I can use IT effectively within the situations, etc. This is all stuff Lotus Petal doesn't do.

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crz87

I'm considering on dropping white entire and focus just on REBs, Duress, Bounce/Grips against blue decks.

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You have to remember though that Chant is also great together with pass-the-turn-piles and it is the easiest way to play around Stifle.

I'm thinking about putting a Doomsday in the SB, but I'm not entirely sure it's necessary, nor do I think I can find the slot. Any ideas?

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: I *could* drop one DD from the main and put it in the SB and then MD either Pate/RR/Chant. IDK yet though.

Yeah, I'm just not justified that running 3-4 Chants is worth the white splash while putting the manabase more at risk to Wasteland. i.e. if they waste your only UB or UR source etc, you can't fetch for another. Dropping white allows you to run 2 UB and 2UR sources, as in my list earlier.

I do feel that 2 Infernal Tutor, 2 Burning Wish is the way to go, even after post M10 rules. Burning Wish can grab you a Doomsday, IGG off the board whereas Infernal Tutor can only do so if you're hellbent. I still run 2 IT so that I can Mystical Tutor the second one if really needed.

Doomsday piles with Burning Wish is something that IT is less capable of, i.e. Burning Wish in a Doomsday pile instead of a Tendrils allows for +1 storm if you have the mana.

@DC: I can't see how LED is affected by the rules. LED is mainly affected by the upkeep into draw step, and basically M10 kills the interaction of Mystical Tutor + LED + draw, not LED. Correct me if I'm wrong. LED has a whole new power level in FDDT than TES and ANT since after Doomsday you can LED in response to brainstorm or Top, and get the mana pre-draw (similar to the Mystical Tutor/Draw step). I think FDDT maybe the new storm after M10 rules since ANT and TES lose some power with LED + Mystical Tutor.
1 DD in the board is good with the Burning Wish from testing yesterday.

I'm very satisfied with this list, maybe we can call it NLS (Next-Level Storm) after M10 rules?


4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Burning Wish

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Duress
3 Red Elemental Blast

SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Grapeshot
2 Extirpate


Against CB decks, I will board in 2 more Pyroblast, 2 Extirpate, 1 Chain of Vapor. Duress/Blast + Extirpate should take out FOW/CB out for good, reducing one threat. Chain is bounce number 2, and can still function under CB-Top if played correctly. You can Chain your permanent, and let it resolve, then sac a land and copy it to bounce CB. CB cannot counter the copy so this trick is good against an inexperienced opponent.


I am trying to make the bolder move to move Helm into the MD. It takes a space, but it's not really useless at any time. My reasoning is that in this NLS build, with Helm in the main, you can not worry about storm count with your Doomsday pile and Helm helps when you're winning and short on mana. Not to mention that Burning Wish/Helm in a DD pile would allow you to wish for Grapeshot/Tendrils depending on the chant situation on board.

Here's a list with Helm MD,

DDHS (Doomsday Helm Storm)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

3 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Burning Wish

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Duress
3 Red Elemental Blast

SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Grapeshot
2 Extirpate

You don't need to go for infistorm with helm, but the option is there if you need to. Burning Wish helps a lot in grabbing Tendrils/Grapeshot in the DD pile if you face some hate (Runed Halo, Mages naming Tendrils in game1).

crz87: But, if you want to drop white, why do you keep a Tundra?
However, I'm falling in love with your list more and more as i look at it. it brings flexibility thanks to Burning Wish (which helps not losing to random Extirpates..io know ppl think that Pate on Tendrils is impossible, but it happens, trust me; and sometimes, having Tendrils in the yard is a huge disadvantage for this deck), it has a more solid manabase (despites not packing W for chant which is doubtlessly the best protection); the REBs should become Pyroblasts because of the potential +1 storm issue, however.
It's like taking TES and putting its strongest synergies into a FTDD shell; great ! Going to test it.
One question: do you feel AdNauseam is acceptable in this structure? because i see there are lots of cc3-cc4 in your list, and between fetchlands, enemy damage, i wouldn't want it to bee too mch suboptimal.

oops, should be Volc. I still need some advice on whether dropping white for blast + Extirpate + Duress protection against blue decks is a wise choice. I've explained my reasonings above, but that's only from my point of view, as a somewhat inexperienced combo player.

I like the idea of Helm in the main, and I've tried it before, but never with b. wish, so I think it could be a good idea. Can really be an investment for the future turns, allowing less mana to go further. Also, I see no reason why we couldn't play at least one more Cabal Ritual to even better effect with it. Net 4 mana from a single one, then making your spells one cheaper if they cost over 1 cc. This makes all of these cheaper:

IGG
IT
Wish
Tendrils
Grapeshot
Meditate
Top
Cabal Rit
Wipe Away
Krosan Grip
EtW
H. Recall
Rebuild
Echoing Truth

and lots more choices we aren't using that still have application to storm.

Also, this would allow for more intricate math, less pass-the-turn piles and etc. simply because it will allow for the same amount of mana to be spread over move spells. As long as you can meet the color requirements it will allow you to be more aggressive against hate, albeit more risky. Say you build a stack that works with the Helm, and then they Grip it in response you you tapping top to break into your winning 5. You lose. Still, I agree that it's something to look into. I'm going to try that in the Chrome Mox slot in my list, as it's essentially the same idea that I'm using the mox for.

Pce,

--DC

Alright, I have a general question:
Why are people packing more than one Doomsday maindeck?

I've seen this on multiple lists now and the only reason I can come up with is that you'll find one earlier. In that case I'd just increase the number of cantrips in the deck because multiple Doomsday copies are plain useless (or Chrome Mox imprints, if run).

Could someone please enlighten me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FredMaster

Alright, I have a general question:
Why are people packing more than one Doomsday maindeck?

I've seen this on multiple lists now and the only reason I can come up with is that you'll find one earlier. In that case I'd just increase the number of cantrips in the deck because multiple Doomsday copies are plain useless (or Chrome Mox imprints, if run).

Could someone please enlighten me.

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You can do shit like Dday in a Dday Pile. Also running more copies of Dday helps against discard and are quite cool in the control matchup. With only one copy of Dday I often find myself in a situation where I have to grap it with a tutor, whereas with multiple copies I just can cantrip into Dday and tutor for protection or even gas if needed.

In the NLS build, 1 Doomsday is enough. You can win via Ad Nauseam, DD or IGG loops, not to mention Burning wish grabs IGG/DD, so only 1 DD is needed in the NLS build listed above.

I haven't tested Helm main, but it seems like a strong addition with FDDT's manabase. AND it works under Blood Moon since Helm combo is colorless, you just need BBB off ritual for DD to work. Otherwise, this deck can scoop to 1st turn Moon effects (well it'll have a much harder time since it cannot reach infistorm for burningwish->grapeshot in a DD pile).

But looking at the DDHS build, you can imagine the situations where DD into piles of Cabal Ritual/Dark Ritual + Burning Wish + Grapeshot/Tendrils cost a lot less since Burning Wish is now R instead of 1R, Grapeshot/Tendrils is now R/1BB instead of 1R/2BB and IGG is now 1BB instead of 2BB. The cost advantage to the opponent is usually irrelevant since you're going off protected i.e. after a Duress/Chant/blast backup and you're aiming to win that turn, so Helm is in your favor. Like I said again, you don't need Helm to win. Often, traditional DD and Ad Nauseam will win you the game, but Helm gives an out against game 1 Moon and getting enough storm to beat troublesome game1. You want to try to maximize Game 1 wins if possible, since they're bringing the CB and hate in Game 2.

I prefer cutting white in NLS/DDHS build since I'm running Wishes, and many wish targets are red e.g. grapeshot, empty the warrens, shattering spree (which can't be played with a 4c build since you don't have enough red to use it fully). How crucial is Chant such that it warrants a 4c build in NLS?


Here's a noob rules question just to confirm. I play Doomsday. Does Doomsday get removed as part of the spell's resolution? i.e. does it hit the yard before it resolves?

Chant is very strong when you're facing the modern Aggro-Control build which pack 12 counters ( foW, Daze, Spell Snare) and 4 stifles ( i'm refering to Canadian Threshold, for example). Where FoW and Daze must be kept in sight since they make our combo more difficult ( even if Daze, at a certain point, is really manageable to be faced if they didn't Wasteland us), Chant has the pros to completely bypass Stifle and Spell Snare. The point is that , in a normal build of Doosday, Spell Snare isn't that hurting , since it can only hit Cabal Ritual ( and Helm, ok, but it's g2). Stifle can be circumvent both with Orim, or with another protection spell in the Doomsday Pile. I think that, in your red build, Spell Snare is far more hurting, since it can now get Tutors in addition to the other aforementioned cards. The problem is that you don't run Orim's Chant, so you'll have to carefully calculate Snare as a possibility in the combo turn.
This is a Con we must face; although really liking your build, I admit White Doomsday doesn't have this flaw.

However, i think a further protection spell as a Wish-Target could be acceptable. Thoughtseize, maybe. And another thing:after a couple of matches as testing, I noticed your version isn't really Doomsday-only-centric: there are 4 ways with which you can go off, so I assume a full set of SDT 8which is great with fetches for Card Quality, but really slow and setup-ish as hell), although being necessary for DD, are slightly too much. If you're planning for the early AdNos , i always found Ponder to be >> to SDT, because it lets you stack your future draws, and nets you a card immediately as well. So, why maybe not to make -1 SDT, +1 Ponder?
For the 2nd Cabal Ritual issue, I'd like to see it in that build too; the point is, what to take out for it? I guess Chrome Mox is the only alternative viable. But Mox is really crucial for the Nausea route, since we can't really rely onto 3 lotus petals (assuming we've already done the land drop) to get free mana. I admit that, in this deck, Mox sucks as a mana source, but i guess it's pretty much unavoidable, if we want to keep the AN possibility.

I do want to test 4 ponders, 3 Top, but from trying out builds with TES/ANT/FDDT, I like FDDT much better. Every spell in FDDT is much more potent. LED does a lot more in FDDT than ANT/TES (which is only useful pre-AdNos). Top also allows for Mystical Tutor/AdNos tricks post m10 rules which TES/ANT does not allow but is only restricted to the draw phase. It does such when you reveal multiple SDT off top, so maybe I'll play 4 Ponder, 3 Top. Depending on the meta, Top is better in a Moon meta since it's colorless. Ponder is super strong though.

Thanks for the advice on Chant. I can see why that makes sense. Especially, Chant seems to be a draw-ALL-counterspell from blue players although it doesn't deal with CB it does stop most if not all other counterspells if it resolves, or it takes at least 1-2 counterspells off their hand.

I'll probably go for 4 Chants (3 MD, 1 SB). I'm loving Duress more than anything in FDDT. It not only gets rid of FOW/CB but provides me with knowledge on when to go off, and I think that's golden in such a deck. Like what emdlin posted a few pages back, combo should last all 3 stages of the matchups, early, mid and late. The strengths of FDDT is that it lasts through mid and end game superbly. TES suffers in the mid-lategame and ANT is still powerful in the late-game EXCEPT against aggro which forces the life total down. FDDT can play with 2 life, therefore it can go a much longer brutal matchup. It's a lot harder to pilot but a good pilot does well. Not sure if Serenity is still a good SB option in my DDHS version with all the answers I have at present. I think Hurkyl's Recall answers Stax very well at EOT Recall while building up your artifact mana. I'm wondering which matchups is Serenity better than Recall. Maybe in CB and Stax heavy meta? But Serenity does not really kill CB if you do not resolve it. Perhaps try to get lucky? I'm really just relying on Duress-draw-go Blast/Extirpate against CB players.

I agree that Spell Snare hits this list more than others. To be honest, ANT is the weakest card in the deck and I'm considering on taking it out, but it does win many games by itself on Turn 2. Against aggro Game 1, you don't think but go off with ANT off mystical tutor (much easier than Doomsday unless you make a mistake).

Not to mention, ANT in the MD is there to "trick" people Game 1 that you're playing ANT, and making them waste their mages and Teegs in Game 2 SB. Then you rip out Doomsday which ignores Mages and Teegs. lulz. I like this build a lot. DDHS has the option of winning through Canonist via helm/grapeshot, Teeg via Doomsday, Mages via different win conditions IGG/ANT/DD. So I think your only bad MU are CB and blue decks, for which you have MD/SB of 4 Duress, 5-8 Blasts/Chants, 2 Extirpates

Are you guys sure about Burning Wish? You don't have the acceleration for Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns, so it's +1R for Doomsday or disruption and expensive removal. That's not bad by itself, but one of the strengths of DDFT is that it's immune to Spellsnare, and considering how much of a bitch that card is against TES, I'd be inclined to play with out it.

I think Burning Wish shines the most in creating pass the turn piles, which is something that I'm still very wary of doing. Wishing for answers is cool, but when you need answers, Wish usually is difficult to play (e.g. SDT+CB in play).

However, "slower" DDFT builds have one glaring problem - the need to resolve an SDT. Brainstorm also enables Doomsday piles, but SDT is really the key card. And that is something which Burning Wish and its pass the turn piles answers.

I went 6-2 with NLS this past weekend at the SCG 5k. I finished in 20th place on tiebreaks, narrowly missing out on a $100 check (11th to 22nd was 6-2). I beat Tempo Thresh a couple times and then lost to Tempo Thresh and CB/Top/Thoughtseize/Dark Confidant/Goyf/Ponder/Brainstorm/Stifle/Waste.dec with Leyline in the sb (aka a deck that had no business at 4-1 in a field of zoo, goblins, and tempo thresh). The lost Tempo Thresh match was close with my opp mising a Spell Snare for my hellbent Infernal Tutor blindly off an Ice after I duressed away his Force of Wills in game 2 followed up by an extremely unlucky series of Ad Nauseam flips later in the game (yeah, I recovered and went off again). I lost quickly to Tempo Thresh's LD plan in game 3. UGB Storm Hate.dec wasn't all that close, although he had some pretty nutty hands against me and he drew perfectly to beat my hand of Duress, Chant, Ad Nauseam stuff. My wins were against tempo thresh (twice), goyf sligh, dredge, aggro loam (maindeck chalice which hit @ 1 on the play in g1), and goblins (with chant, although he never had the time or mana to cast them). I felt okay about the deck and wouldn't change it if I were to replay the event.

My list looked like this:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 City of Brass
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining top
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Burning wish
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meditate
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

I did have a funny series of events against Goyf Sligh where I was able to Infernal Tutor for IGG, IGG for LED, LED, Infernal Tutor which could find Burning wish into the RFG'd IGG into LED, LED, Infernal Tutor into Tendrils. It's sad that this won't be possible in a couple weeks. I built two pass the turn piles. Both were gambles because I had no other outs and while one didn't pay off, the other did. Given that I was guaranteed to lose that game without the ability to pass the turn with the double wish pile I was happy to have it available to me and I'll likely be adding an Ill-Gotten Gains to the sideboard if I play this particular build in the future.

With the new rules, wouldn't you need 2 Ill-Gotten Gains in the SB with the double Burning Wish pass the turn piles?

1 IGG would get me 18 lifeloss. 1 IGG + 1 Burning Wish gets me 20 lifeloss.