[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by Limz

There is always Mystical Tutor for AdN, and it just costs a blue mana. Adding Cunning Wish is just like putting Simian Spirit Guide back in the Deck. A 3CC card hurts a lot when flipped out from Adn. What's even worse, it can't be used to wish for a win condition. Brainfreeze anyone!?

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Not that I'd use Cunning Wish, but using Cunning Wish to search for Ad Nauseam and then using Cunning Wish to search for Brain Freeze is totally viable, it's no different than Burning Wish for Grape Shot.

@Pulp_Fuction

Duress > Orim's Chant, seriously, I've lost more games to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void than I've lost to Stifle and Spellsnare. People need to let go of 4xOrim's Chant and XxDuress and realize that 4xDuress and XxOrim's Chant is just so much better with Mystical Tutor.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Not that I'd use Cunning Wish, but using Cunning Wish to search for Ad Nauseam and then using Cunning Wish to search for Brain Freeze is totally viable, it's no different than Burning Wish for Grape Shot.

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Setup color versus acceleration color; 3cc versus 2cc; strictly win-con that might scoop to grave-to-lib recursion versus bear killer. It's that different.

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

Setup color versus acceleration color; 3cc versus 2cc; strictly win-con that might scoop to grave-to-lib recursion versus bear killer. It's that different.

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No shit, I didn't realize the metagame was Gaea's Blessing.dec., my point was the Storm and CC were plausible and it wasn't as radical as the OP made it out to be.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

No shit, I didn't realize the metagame was Gaea's Blessing.dec., my point was the Storm and CC were plausible and it wasn't as radical as the OP made it out to be.

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Jötun Grunt and Academy Ruins.

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

Jötun Grunt and Academy Ruins.

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There's also Volrath's Stronghold.
2 Wish cards in the same deck are kinda sucky: we do want some real SB cards, do we?

Ok, I just had a Eureka!

Cutting Simian Spirit Guide and replacing it with Cabal Ritual was a mistake, because cutting Simian Spirit Guide and replacing it with Tinder Wall is superior. Tinder Wall is 1cc, which is 2 less damage than Simian Spirit Guide and 1 less damage than Cabal Ritual, and Tinder Wall's "body" is relevant now that Life=Cards with Ad Nauseam. In addition, "Tinder Wall, go" is a strong, strong play because unlike Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual, Tinder Wall produces +2 mana on the second turn and unlike Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall can produce that mana to cast Ad Nauseam during your draw phase (Tinder Wall, Lion's Eye Diamond go = 5 mana). The original "design flaw" of Tinder Wall was that "G mana" wasn't reliable off Diminishing Returns, but now that Ad Nauseam has replaced Diminishing Returns and the deck can draw as many cards as it "needs," producing G mana off of a Land, Lotus Petal or even a Chrome Mox isn't problematic.

In summary, Tinder Wall is "the nuts," because it produces G for RR or RR on the following turn, which makes it the only other ritual that helps resolve Ad Nauseam at instant speed, and it both minimize the amount of damage when revealed by Ad Nauseam and reduces the amount of damage when blocking. The off color aside, it's about as ideal as rituals get in TES.

Where Tinder Wall shines,

Ad Nauseam
Brainstorm
Duress
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
City of Brass
Gemstone Mine

City of Brass, Brainstorm revealing Red Elemental Blast, Chrome Mox and Ponder. Take Red Elemental Blast and Ponder, put back Chrome and Ad Nauseam.

Draw Chrome Mox, Gemstone Mine, Duress (Opponent Force of Wills Duress i.e. holds Counterbalance), Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox imprinting Ponder.

Turn 3 win during your upkeep with Red Elemental Blast countering Counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Ok, I just had a Eureka!
TINDER WALL!

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This may actually be a nice idea. However, Tinderwall has cons too:
- Doesn't produce Black mana. The deck became more Black dependant with AN, and making double black is sometimes hard.
- Might get killed in the opponent's turn preside, making their creature removal somewhat relevant G1.
- It's a worse lategame than Cabal Ritual (not that it matters much)
- can be cast only with lands and petals (doesn't matter much either).

It probably deserves testing though. Sure it can help against white weenies and tribal decks (Merfolks, Elves, Goblin, Sliver), but i guess most of those are already quite good matchups.
The only other thing that the wall can survive are GoyfSligh/Boros creatures, but I guess I don't want to lose an acceleration piece to a chain lightning usually.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

This may actually be a nice idea. However, Tinderwall has cons too:
- Doesn't produce Black mana. The deck became more Black dependant with AN, and making double black is sometimes hard.
- Might get killed in the opponent's turn preside, making their creature removal somewhat relevant G1.
- It's a worse lategame than Cabal Ritual (not that it matters much)
- can be cast only with lands and petals (doesn't matter much either).

It probably deserves testing though. Sure it can help against white weenies and tribal decks (Merfolks, Elves, Goblin, Sliver), but i guess most of those are already quite good matchups.
The only other thing that the wall can survive are GoyfSligh/Boros creatures, but I guess I don't want to lose an acceleration piece to a chain lightning usually.

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Tinder Wall is fucking insane, not only in theory but in practice. "Tinder Wall, go" both untaps your land and produces RR, so Tinder Wall does produce B if you think about it. Swords to Plowshares isn't a problem, because you have the option of passing or sacrificing, which makes Tinder Wall such a flexible accelerant. If Tinder Wall isn't as good as Cabal Ritual in the late game, then Tinder Wall is better than Cabal Ritual in the early game, and that's what matters. I agree, G sucks, but it's manageable and it's easier when Vexing Shusher and/or Xantid Swarm are SBed in.

Seriously, TINDER WALL!

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Forbidden Orchard

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach
1 Thought Seize
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyro Blast

I dig this deck a lot now. However, I'm not really sure why I'd play this over AdNT or vice versa. It looks like you may have leap frogged AdNT in speed.

Not to sound like a complete n00b but can somebody please explain situations in which casting Diminishing Returns would be appropriate. I can't help but look at the card and fret fizziling while also possibly giving my opponent the nuts (whether that means the ability to stop me or to kill me on their turn if they live). To be honest part of my lack of faith is due to an inexperience with any non-FT combo build in legacy. In advance, thanks.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

I dig this deck a lot now. However, I'm not really sure why I'd play this over AdNT or vice versa. It looks like you may have leap frogged AdNT in speed. However, I don't understand the use of duress over Orim's Chant. Chant makes the opponents hand irrelevant or gets rid of a counter too....

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Because Orim's Chant isn't that good, Orim's Chant requires W mana on the combo turn and turns off Stifle and Spellsnare, but Stifle and Spellsnare can't stop Ad Nauseam regardless. Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void stop this deck cold, so Duress is the best disruption because it prevents the worst answers from hitting the board. Duress imprints for Black, and you can choose to cast Duress either before or during the combo turn, so it's more efficient than Orim's Chant. Playing Orim's Chant only makes sense when you're playing Mystical Tutor and Ill Gotten Gains, but I'm not playing either card, so Duress is the superior choice.

My philosophy to TES is simple, you use Duress, Burning Wish -> Thought Seize, Red Elemental and Pyro Blasts to stop Counterbalance from resolving at ALL costs.

You play Tinder TES instead of AdN because it's like one to two turns faster, and one to two turns matters when the best way to deal with Counterbalance is to win before it resolves. Plus, I think Tinder TES has the most efficient Tutors and Acceleration, and it gives you the ability to customize your disruption with Duress, Red Elemental and Pyro Blast, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Vexing Shusher and Xantid Swarm with the golden lands. Plus, tapping Forbidden Orchard to cast Tinder Wall is like the most insane synergy in a combo deck since Illusions and Donate ;p

Side notes: I firmly believe MD Ill Gotten Gains is just a wet blanket, you can always Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens for 1 more mana and drawing the card either in your starting hand or after your Ad Nauseam just blows. Grape Shot is terrible vs Ethersworn Canonist, I've lost games because I wished for Hull Breach to remove Chalice of the Void at one and then my opponent resolved Ethersworn Canonist and I couldn't Storm 2 for Grapeshot :( I really, really like the full set of Ad Nauseam and cantrips, because the cantrips turn Lion's Eye Diamond into a Black Lotus if you set up your top decks. Sure, Mystical Tutor does it too, but you have to specifically set out to set up Ad Nauseam in order to do it and it costs you a card. Revealing Ad Nauseam off of Ad Nauseam sucks, but cutting Ill Gotten Gains and Cabal Ritual has driven down the avg. cc and you're just hurting your top decking and "Oops, I win" power. The 11th land is debatable, cutting it for an Empty the Warrens is reasonable considering it protects the deck from discarding or RFGing the MD win conditions and it gives Infernal Tutor a 6cc out.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Grape Shot is terrible vs Ethersworn Canonist

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Playing out artifact mana then Grapeshot seems to do the job pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

Playing out artifact mana then Grapeshot seems to do the job pretty well.

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Yeah, when you've got it, but sometimes you've already played your Chrome Mox to cast Burning Wish or you've already played your LED to set up Ad Nauseam during your draw phase.

It just randomly sucks, Grape Shot doesn't do enough for me to take the chance, and Pyroclasm's WoG effect actually saves my ass from time to time.

Grapeshot can double as a win-con, though. I don't know how well TES hits 18-20 storm as I've never been in the position of having to grapeshot ftw when playing it, but with 12x 0-cc artifact spells and lots of other accel, not to mention IGG loop with wishes and with IT, you should be able to do it fairly easy. That's why Grapeshot is played over 'Clasm.

I like the Tinder Wall. Nice. Btw, you always need two pieces of accel. to combo off, and one obviously has to be able to produce black. I don't think it's a big deal to add 1x-4x more red sources. You still have 1-4 Moxen, 4x Petal, 4x LED and 4x Dark Rit and 10x 5c lands. The mana-color argument really doesn't seem relevant when so many of the other accel gives you either any color you need (read all artifact accel.) or the main color you need (Dark Rits). Seriously, the only downside I see is that creature removal is now relevant game one, which may lead to them actually leaving removal in depending on how stupid they are.

Blockers that turn into mini LEDs are nice. Especially the RR, which allows you to Burning wish off of G. This only solidifies my choice of SBing an Infernal Tutor as a Wish target.

Pce,

--DC

[QUOTE=BreathWeapon;317116]Because Orim's Chant isn't that good, Orim's Chant requires W mana on the combo turn QUOTE]

This is true but playing chant on your opponents turn isnt always bad either. Losing chant makes your mirror terrible. I have saved myself by playing chant when my opening 7 is missing a piece or two, so I wouldnt get raped by duress or thoughtseize.

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

This is true but playing chant on your opponents turn isnt always bad either. Losing chant makes your mirror terrible. I have saved myself by playing chant when my opening 7 is missing a piece or two, so I wouldnt get raped by duress or thoughtseize.

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Who cares about the mirror? Counter their blue tutors and cantrips while raping their hand with Duress and combo off in the process. Also, myself and others in the FDDT thread have gone down to 1x Chant in the mainboard to Mystical into when needed.

I fear the CB matchup way more than the mirror or Force of Will/Daze/Spell Snare/Remand. I'd plan for that, and that's what makes Blasts and Duress better than Chant.

Pce,

--DC

The problem tho' is when is using Grape Shot as a win condition relevant? If you can generate 20 storm, then you can generate the mana for Tendrils of Agony, and any one who names Tendrils of Agony with Meddling Mage is just incompetent.

Maybe I'm a little overboard on using Pyroclasm just for Ethersworn Canonist when I can use Hull Breach, but Pyroclasm picking off 2xEthersworn Canonist or a combination of "hate bears" is pretty damn good IMO.

Grape Shot is just for show, Pyroclasm actually addresses issues.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

any one who names Tendrils of Agony with Meddling Mage is just incompetent.

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What should they name?
Chant? They can do it only if they got some other counterspells online
Ad Nauseam? We can IGG or Returns for the win
Burning Wish? We have a maindeck wincon to Mystical or IT.

Tendrils is one of the most solid choices probably.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Maybe I'm a little overboard on using Pyroclasm just for Ethersworn Canonist when I can use Hull Breach, but Pyroclasm picking off 2xEthersworn Canonist or a combination of "hate bears" is pretty damn good IMO.

Grape Shot is just for show, Pyroclasm actually addresses issues.

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Every card has its ups and downs. If Pyroclasm meets a FoW/Counterspell/Spell Snare/ BEB then you're done. If Grapeshot meets a Stifle then you're done.

If I'm against 2xCanonist I'm going to wish for Spree. If I'm up against 2x bears and none is a Canonist then I can Build to 3 storm and play grapeshot to kill both. If the opponent has Canonist+another hate bear then Pyroclasm is better.

I wished for Grapeshot a good amount of times where it was good as wincondition, but there are probably times where Pyroclasm would have won the game against some tribal deck (I'm favoured against those, but happens to lose one game).

Naming Tendrils of Agony is FAIL, Meddling Mage names either Orim's Chant, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond more often than not, because stopping the opponent from combing is > then making them use a different win condition.

The problem with the "I'll just wish for Shattering Spree vs 2xEthersworn Canonist" argument is that it forces you to use your artifact removal instead of your creature removal ... and that becomes a problem when your opponent drops a Chalice of the Void right after you removed Ethersworn Canonist. Also Grape Shotting 2 "hate bears" is not easy, and often it's not even possible, where Pyroclasm doesn't give a shit about Storm and takes the rest of their board to boot.

I just think Pyroclasm is more pragmatic, sometimes you just have to go back to basics.

Edit: You can name Orim's Chant with or with out Force of Will in your hand, in fact I think naming Orim's Chant with out Force of Will in your hand is the best play, because it's a stone cold bluff that works a lot.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Also Grape Shotting 2 "hate bears" is not easy, and often it's not even possible, where Pyroclasm doesn't give a shit about Storm and takes the rest of their board to boot.

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I never had problem reaching 3 storm before playing Grapeshot if there was no Canonist involved. At the time (when i was playing it), I had trouble getting my Pyroclasm countered though.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

The problem with the "I'll just wish for Shattering Spree vs 2xEthersworn Canonist" argument is that it forces you to use your artifact removal instead of your creature removal ... and that becomes a problem when your opponent drops a Chalice of the Void right after you removed Ethersworn Canonist.

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If there are a couple Canonists beating on you you probably are already low on life by the time you wish and play spree. If the opponent then plays a chalice here's the scenario:
- He probably just topdecked the chalice, otherwise why should't he play it making much more difficult for you to fuck his board?
- You have a second burning wish and have the resources and time to wish for Spree, play it and not die meanwhile.
- You sided in 2 sprees and didn't draw one, don't have Mystical too.
- You can't combo through Chalice.
- You didn't combo the turn you played Spree, killing the canonists.
- Oh, yeah, and he's also playing Canonists+Chalices like... no deck does?.

This can't be a point.
Pyroclasm is better against tribal decks and overall worse against counters+bears decks (unless bears=canonist).
Pyroclasm can be better against multiple hatebears where Grapeshot can be better against a single one (I can storm 2 and play grapeshot so even with a counterspell the bear is dead).

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Naming Tendrils of Agony is FAIL, Meddling Mage names either Orim's Chant, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond more often than not, because stopping the opponent from combing is > then making them use a different win condition.

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Actually, you're right. Against your deck they can just name Ad Nauseam, leaving you with an engine that gives them 7 cards. Or they can name Burning Wish, knowing that their bear will chant forever, cause you have no way to remove it.