[Deck] Dredge

I don't know, but the meta seems to be full of FoW's. If you are on the play, in order to prevent losing to a counter, you must have at least: 2 lands (one for the first turn, and another to play around daze next turn), 2 discard outlets and a dredger. That seems a bit hard to me.
You can just DDD once or twice in order to get a dredger in your GY before start casting spells, and I am not sure if this is "too slow". If you chose to play, and in your opening hand you have only 1 discard outlet, or get Dazed on turn 2, you lost.

Just to be clear, my opinion is: If you don't know what deck your opponent is playing, you should probably choose to draw. Of course in several occasions you've already seen your opponent playing, and them, you can safely be on the play.

@Careful Study: Yes Izor, you are right, i'd rather cut the 4th Ichorid before it.

Dread Returning a Grave Troll won't win you as many games as Iona, Zealot or Elesh Norn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izor

Well, what's really interesting is the question whether those DR targets did anything in the lists we see them in. The answer is no. I didn't see Daly or any other player in this year's SCG Opens cast any maindecked DR target that would have won him the game where a Troll wouldn't. Except maybe the manaless list, but that doesn't count here.

So I'm sure no DR targets main is still the way to go. I'd rather have those slots for important stuff.

Oh and I can't stress that enough. Anything less than 4 Careful Studies is a huge mistake. I'll cut all Breakthroughs before I start cutting the 4th Study. That card is so glue to the deck. Really, test it. I'm sure you'll never want less than 4.


As of cutting a land, it's certainly true tht a DDD list only needs 13-14 lands in total. But that only really counts for the Phantasmagorian lists, that are by farthe best at DDDing. For the 8 dork lists, I fully agree with Vandalize. You usually want to play and that means you really want the 15th Land.

---

Hey guys, this is Ryan Daly. I haven't had a chance to really comment on here yet, but was just going to jump in for a quick blurb here on the main deck dread return targets because this is something that I have really gone back and forth on. Usually, I would agree that they are not necessary, but I anticipated a faster metagame, with a lot of AnT, goblins, zoo ect. The Sphinx/Zealot combo won me a lot of games in the early rounds against the faster decks I played, like zoo and burn. In fact, I probably would have lost game one in the quarterfinals to burn had the zealot been a grave-troll. In a slower metagame, I would have definitely would have nixed the MD dread return targets.

As for the DDD vs. taking the play argument, my decision came down to the same principles as the main deck Zealot. I felt the metagame would simply be too fast to allow me to DDD, and firestorm seemed like the perfect answer to that problem. It allowed me to get aggressive with the turn one discard outlet in game one without fear of counter magic. This allowed me to get the edge on the faster, more aggressive decks while also allowing me to get ahead on the control players.

When it comes down to it, I feel the both of those decisions come down to the current state of the meta. If it looks like a fast meta with lots of combo and agro, take the play. If it's a slower meta with a lot of control and tempo decks, go with the phantasmagorian DDD plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojeh

I don't know, but the meta seems to be full of FoW's. If you are on the play, in order to prevent losing to a counter, you must have at least: 2 lands (one for the first turn, and another to play around daze next turn), 2 discard outlets and a dredger. That seems a bit hard to me.
You can just DDD once or twice in order to get a dredger in your GY before start casting spells, and I am not sure if this is "too slow". If you chose to play, and in your opening hand you have only 1 discard outlet, or get Dazed on turn 2, you lost.

Just to be clear, my opinion is: If you don't know what deck your opponent is playing, you should probably choose to draw. Of course in several occasions you've already seen your opponent playing, and them, you can safely be on the play.

@Careful Study: Yes Izor, you are right, i'd rather cut the 4th Ichorid before it.

---

I a blue infested metagame it's perfectly viable to draw most of the time. In that case, I would definitely try Phantasmagorian in Tireless Tribes/Firestorms slots, because that card really makes the difference when DDDing. Even outside of manaless.

y metagame seems similar to yours and my list currently has Phantas as well. It works extraordinarily well.


@ dredgekid:

Congratz on your finish !

I guess if you expected such a fast metagame, your decision to run the FKZ package makes sense.

Still one question. Why did you not choose to draw against Alex in the top 4 for game 3? I feel that if you had started your Dredging on turn 3, instead of turn 5 or so, you would have been able to take it home. In your first feature match you also DDDed against a blue opponent and easily won despite mulling to 6 on the play iirc. What were your thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojeh

I don't know, but the meta seems to be full of FoW's. If you are on the play, in order to prevent losing to a counter, you must have at least: 2 lands (one for the first turn, and another to play around daze next turn), 2 discard outlets and a dredger. That seems a bit hard to me.
You can just DDD once or twice in order to get a dredger in your GY before start casting spells, and I am not sure if this is "too slow". If you chose to play, and in your opening hand you have only 1 discard outlet, or get Dazed on turn 2, you lost.

Just to be clear, my opinion is: If you don't know what deck your opponent is playing, you should probably choose to draw. Of course in several occasions you've already seen your opponent playing, and them, you can safely be on the play.

@Careful Study: Yes Izor, you are right, i'd rather cut the 4th Ichorid before it.

---

Thats why you run Firestorm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izor

I a blue infested metagame it's perfectly viable to draw most of the time. In that case, I would definitely try Phantasmagorian in Tireless Tribes/Firestorms slots, because that card really makes the difference when DDDing. Even outside of manaless.

y metagame seems similar to yours and my list currently has Phantas as well. It works extraordinarily well.


@ dredgekid:

Congratz on your finish !

I guess if you expected such a fast metagame, your decision to run the FKZ package makes sense.

Still one question. Why did you not choose to draw against Alex in the top 4 for game 3? I feel that if you had started your Dredging on turn 3, instead of turn 5 or so, you would have been able to take it home. In your first feature match you also DDDed against a blue opponent and easily won despite mulling to 6 on the play iirc. What were your thoughts?

---

First off, thank you Izor!

In hindsight, taking the draw would have been the correct play. Honestly, at that point I was just so mentally drained my brain wasn't exactly thinking 100 percent straight, as evident from all the punts in game 3.

In the feature match, DDD was the choice because my mull to 5 forced it. It was something like thug, troll, stinkweed, land, coliseum, which is too good of a hand to mull to four against an unknown opponent. I also kind of had a gut feeling he was playing some sort of blue deck like UW or BUG, so I just kind of went with it.

I'm pretty sure being on the play game 3 in this scenario is always correct because Alex could go turn 1 Thoughtseize into Surgical Extraction.

Being on the play with turn 1 Cabal Therapy for X card seems much stronger.

@HokusSchmokus: Yes, of course my choice to play Firestorm main deck has to do with that, I just don't really think I can trust a hundred percent on Firestorm to be on the play every game. In my point of view, Firestorm is better than Phantasmagorian because it provides you a decent discard outlet while you are on the play, and Phantasmagorian kind of forces you to choose to draw.

I believe we can race any kind of aggro, even being on the draw, on game 1. Maybe against Combo we can't afford that decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojeh

@HokusSchmokus: Yes, of course my choice to play Firestorm main deck has to do with that, I just don't really think I can trust a hundred percent on Firestorm to be on the play every game. In my point of view, Firestorm is better than Phantasmagorian because it provides you a decent discard outlet while you are on the play, and Phantasmagorian kind of forces you to choose to draw.

I believe we can race any kind of aggro, even being on the draw, on game 1. Maybe against Combo we can't afford that decision.

---

I agree that we can race most aggro decks, but burn can just get there on turn 3. AnT is another one that is just a faster combo deck than us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dredgekid

I agree that we can race most aggro decks, but burn can just get there on turn 3. AnT is another one that is just a faster combo deck than us.

---

Yes, indeed combo is a tough matchup, but I don't think it's worth taking the play if don't know your opponent's deck, since taking the draw seems better against all kind of Control and Aggro decks.

PS: I am considering Burn as a combo deck, if you are playing against Sligh, things should be a little easier.

I only DDD when I am really certain my discard outlet will get countered.

Why give decks that have a chance against us like maverick and burn and easier time with an extra turn?

Might as well go play manaless dredge if you want to DDD every game.

I think Mental Misstep still has you conditioned.

Yeah, maybe I am still shocked by Mental Misstep, but If you choose to play, and open a hand with only 1 discard outlet, and it gets countered, you lost.
With the meta full of blue, I am very concerned in taking the play every single G1. Therefore, Maverick can't rush us on game 1, actually, no aggro can do it, and if you take the draw, and see a Savannah (for example) you can simply play your dork.

But I got your point, having PImp, Study, Therapy and Firestorm (uncounterable) you got to be very unlucky to get stuck on first turn.

I was testing today against Merfolk, and still not get a conclusion about choosing to play or draw. If they come with no Vial, is nice to be on the draw, but if they do have a Vial, DDD is just too slow.

1 Discard outlet in hand? You're playing pImp, Tribe, Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, and in extreme cases breakthrough. The chances that you don't have a combination of these cards in your opening hand is unlikely. Unless of course you've mulled down to 4 or something in which case you have to take what you get.

I almost always choose to be on the play. I don't want to give my opponents any breathing room. Much like Ryan I currently play the Sphinx/Zealot package as my maindeck DR targets because the meta out here in Los Angeles is combo oriented and I need the speed. I want to win on turn 2, not waste my time making 13 zombies and one fat troll on turn 3 and then passing the turn... I don't want to give them the chance to rip off the top. I want them dead on the spot. Thats my opinion anyway.

What I will take from this is the opportunity to try out main deck Firestorm. I will probably settle on Ryan's list for SCG Open Vegas just switching up the sideboard for my own preferences.

The point is: you are going to face blue decks most of the times (right?), and to be consistent, you must have 2 discard outlets (one to get countered, and another to actually discard). That's why I wonder if being on the draw can be a viable option.

If your meta is Combo-directioned, of course you want to be on the play, and by the way, that's why you want speed, in the shape of FKZ package. That makes a lot of sense, but I'm afraid it can't be generalized. In a random meta, would you play FKZ package and take the play every single game? That's my point.

Being on the play against combo is a double edged knife. While it's obvious that the only chance we got of going off before they play their second turn, arguably enough for them to win against unprotected decks like ours, our chance of getting a good hand is smaller.

With a regular list (11 rainbow, 4 coliseum, 12 dredgers, 4 careful, 4 breakthrough, 8 discard + 4 CT), aiming for Land + Discard + Dredger + Draw spell, we have 40% of having it. This chance doesn't get much better with -1 tarnished, -1 careful, -1 dredger when featuring 2 maindeck DR targets with 3 DR, going down to 33,5%. If you mulligan looking for this hand (I wouldn't mulligan hands with GGT alone, but let's say we would mulligan any hand "without the combo") down to 4, this chance is 54,5% with the 2DR targets list. It gets better for the regular list, reaching 63%.

With discard EOT for the first dredger being an option, still being able to mull if you don't have it, the chance is WAY better, despite the fact that you won't ever be able to kill him before his turn 2, you still will combo before his turn 3 about 72% of the time with the regular list.

Now, you can choose to be anywhere from 54,5% of the time to 72% of the time, this is pretty much up to you. With the first, you will combo before their second turn half of the time. With the second, you will only combo after their second turn, but 3/4 of the time.

And for the record, this is why siding out Lands or Dredgers to add WoC against combo is wrong. You reduce your chance to increase your chance, getting nothing out of a lot of slots. oO

What about cabal? it's a lifesaver against combo matchups... Just try to cabal their brains out before they can do anything. Otherwise you dont stand any chance imo.

3 ways to win imo:

1. Go fast with led
2. Cabal till they cry
3. Their stupid and/or unlucky

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pltinum

What about cabal? it's a lifesaver against combo matchups... Just try to cabal their brains out before they can do anything. Otherwise you dont stand any chance imo.

3 ways to win imo:

1. Go fast with led
2. Cabal till they cry
3. Their stupid and/or unlucky

---

Yes, Cabal Therapy is awesome against them. If we manage to resolva two, we can usually slow them down a lot. If we manage three, we usually win.

I don't like DR targets main that much, but I definitely bring one or two in after boarding in order to maximize my chancess (mostly Iona + Hypnotist).


As of the whole 'always choose to draw and DDD' vs 'always choose to play and try to resolve my enablers', this is really matter of preference. However, one should definitely adapt to the strategy one likes by adjusting the list.

If you always want to play, you need 14-15 lands, 11 Dredgers and 8 discard outlets (4 PImp + 4 Tribe/Firestorm).

If you want to draw first, cut Tribe/Firestorm and add Phantasmagorian (a split of like 2-3 Phanta + 1-2 other is also viable). Also, definitely add Dredgers 12-13 and you can cut lands down to 13-14.


Which list is better depends on the metagame and preference. But there's still one misconception about the DDD list, or Hybrid list, or usual list with Phantasmagorian or whatever you call it. It's not straight up slower than the usual list. It just often doesn't go first against opponents you want to go first against (and that only if you don't know your opponent's deck, cause you can also just choose to play with hybrid). The key differences are:

1. Hybrid has a lower chance to assemble all it needs to go off if it's on the play (due to the lack of 4 discard outlets). The chance to have Gold Land, Dredger, discard outlet and draw effect is 33% for Usual vs 25% for hybrid.

2. Hybrid has a stronger DDD play because of Phantasmagorian.


However, DDDing on turn 1 with hybrid, activating a Phantasmagorian after the first Dredge and casting a draw spell off a land is just as fast as the usual list on the draw.


That being said, the two lists have some differences in their matchups:

Combo: Usual is better, because it always chooses to play. And that turn can make the difference

Slow Control: Hybrid is better because it's faster while DDDing.

Tempo: Hybrid is better because it doesn't fear Wasteland and tempo counters while Usual can be wrecked. Hybrid is still fast enough against the few creatures they have.

Aggro w/o FoW and Wasteland: Usual is better for the same reasons it's better against Combo.

Aggro with FoW/Wasteland: That's pretty even actually. While Hybrid can avoid Waste and counters it could be too slow against the aggro clock. On the other hand, while Usual is fast enough against their clock, it can be wrecked by Waste + counters.


So just choose whatever you like best I guess.

Just to set this straight, what do you call Hybrid? I call Hybrid the version with 'Gorian and SW, so I got confused there. It actually has a better chance of a hand with land + dredger + draw than any of the general lists trying land+discard+draw+dredger

And I wouldn't ever cut lands. Lands are the weak link. There's a reason why we take the shot of bolting ourselves with tarnished, and this reason is the fact that cutting lands is the second thing that reduces our chances the most, Careful Study being the first, since it's a swiss army knife.

Really, even in 'Gorian list, I go 11 gold lands now.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to find names for all those different variations. I used Hybrid for the deck Morrissey won the SCG Open with, just -4 Wraith +4 Putrid Imp. PImp is better than Wraith with Misstep gone, I think even Morrissey himself said he'd make that change nowadays.

And I'd love to play 11 gold lands in Hybrid if I had the slots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izor

Yeah, it's pretty hard to find names for all those different variations. I used Hybrid for the deck Morrissey won the SCG Open with, just -4 Wraith +4 Putrid Imp. PImp is better than Wraith with Misstep gone, I think even Morrissey himself said he'd make that change nowadays.

And I'd love to play 11 gold lands in Hybrid if I had the slots.

---

Ah, ok. I call the list with SW as hybrid, and never got a name for the list with -4 sw and +4 pimp

I prefer SW over PImp. I think it's very good, great to dodge extraction or some artifact hates, and it helps a lot with Ichorids, being fast and then pitching for them.

I found the room I needed by removing Phantasmagorians. Bottom line, 'gorians work as dredgers for when you are dredging already, and I don't think more than 2 is needed. Also, I'm thinking about cutting a DR. DR is great, but in these DDD lists, where Ichorid puts harder work, it's less needed. But this change is still in test.

@Gui: Could you share your hybrid list with us?


Honestly, I don't see that huge advantage on Phantasmagorian. Seriously, he allow us to discard business even while DDD'ing, also feeds Ichorid, and that's all. If you choose to be on the draw with the Usual list, of course you can only discard the dredger per turn until you can cast a spell, but you can also be on the play if you want to, or if your opponent wants to.
Of course Gorian helps, but is it worth removing 4 discard outlets? I don't think the Usual list is that bad at DDD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojeh

@Gui: Could you share your hybrid list with us?


Honestly, I don't see that huge advantage on Phantasmagorian. Seriously, he allow us to discard business even while DDD'ing, also feeds Ichorid, and that's all. If you choose to be on the draw with the Usual list, of course you can only discard the dredger per turn until you can cast a spell, but you can also be on the play if you want to, or if your opponent wants to.
Of course Gorian helps, but is it worth removing 4 discard outlets? I don't think the Usual list is that bad at DDD.

---

This is what I'm up to, on the DDD lists field:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

2 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Darkblast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
1 Dread Return

I agree, 'Gorian is not nuts. It's just really good on DDD version because it works as if you dredged a dredger, the best you got available, and if you don't need it, you pitch it for Ichorid. What I like most about this list is the ability to abuse Ichorids in unfair ways, and to accelerate with SW. Note that this list has a high chance of cast a draw spell during its second turn, so it's not as slow as one might think.


EDIT:
Just wanna add something about Draw vs. Play for the lists running Firestorm (and Darkblasts). To be on the draw against an aggro deck, if you have Firestorm or darkblast to kill their T1 guy, this is a huge move. I think this makes up to their "extra turn".

I strongly suggest the 2nd DR in the main. Flashback/Sacrifice outlets are extremely important to the deck. Even if DR didn't do anything other than flashback with a sacrifice cost, it would probably be worth running. 2-DR's help you reach that critical mass of ways to abuse Bridge, but it also gives you options you wouldn't have otherwise. I regularly win games in virtue of GGT, and even DR Stinkweed to survive/control the board in a non-trivial number of cases. There are plenty of corner cases where we also need to DR PImp/Tribe, Thug, or Narco. Furthermore, having the 2nd DR main is basically 'pre-boarding' when you do want a DR-target, giving you at least another slot in the sb.


peace,
4eak

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

I strongly suggest the 2nd DR in the main. Flashback/Sacrifice outlets are extremely important to the deck. Even if DR didn't do anything other than flashback with a sacrifice cost, it would probably be worth running. 2-DR's help you reach that critical mass of ways to abuse Bridge, but it also gives you options you wouldn't have otherwise. I regularly win games in virtue of GGT, and even DR Stinkweed to survive/control the board in a non-trivial number of cases. There are plenty of corner cases where we also need to DR PImp/Tribe, Thug, or Narco. Furthermore, having the 2nd DR main is basically 'pre-boarding' when you do want a DR-target, giving you at least another slot in the sb.


peace,
4eak

---

Although I agree with this, and for the general lists I have been using 2DRs since forever, I can count on my hands the number of times I won (at least g1) due to DR with the list above using 2DR in the main. Ichorids does a lot of the hard work in this list, and they die to themselves, and I want to test -1DR because I believe 4 therapy + 1DR as sac outlet for moebas could be enough.

Maybe you tested 1DR more than I did already, and it shows the opposite?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gui

Although I agree with this, and for the general lists I have been using 2DRs since forever, I can count on my hands the number of times I won (at least g1) due to DR with the list above using 2DR in the main. Ichorids does a lot of the hard work in this list, and they die to themselves, and I want to test -1DR because I believe 4 therapy + 1DR as sac outlet for moebas could be enough.

Maybe you tested 1DR more than I did already, and it shows the opposite?

---

I agree.

I don't know how to quote multiple times, but about your last paragraph of the post with the DDD list: If you are okay with play firestorm and put yourself on the draw, why change to this DDD list? I mean, I really like to DDD, but I also like having PImp in order to have the freedom to be on the play if I want to, also, PImp is great fighting Relic and Tormod.
Btw, I am seriously thinking about Tireless Tribe in Sideboard. If I could get 2 or 3 slots I would absolutely gonna play them to fight Relic. Do you think it's exaggerated?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojeh

If you are okay with play firestorm and put yourself on the draw, why change to this DDD list?

---

I share this doubt. It comes up to "Firestorm + Pimp" vs "Street Wraith + 'Gorian + Ichorid and be on the draw"

Without the need of discard outlets, I can get more insanely consistant hands, where I just need 3 parts to combo. With Firestorm and PImps, I can be on the play, and firestorm is a good reason on its own. With the DDD list, I manage to have a better and faster usage of Ichorids, and a higher chance to hit all combo parts against combo.

I still didn't decide which one is the best option. :confused:

Hum... I see...

Well, for now I am going to stick with Firestorms and PImps, I'll let you know my experiences.

Do people not play Tormod's Crypt where you are? Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are hands down the best card for fighting one-shot graveyard removal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anusien

Do people not play Tormod's Crypt where you are? Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are hands down the best card for fighting one-shot graveyard removal.

---

Couldn't agree more. Dredge mechanic is totally broken, and choosing the one who suits your need for speed or consistency is metagame depandant or style dependant.

But for fighting hate (which SHOULD BE dredge's concern #1), the PImp/Tribe setup is by far the most resilient. Without hate, this deck just wins. Doesn't really counts wether it was ten 2/2 Zombies + Ichorids, or a fat GGT, or even FKZ returned.

Doesn't matter which build you take, there isn't a best decklist. If you have a tuned list that still dies for a Crypt/Leyline of the Void, you failed as bad as a list with 5 DR targets main deck.

Dredge wins because the deck is broken, and the only thing you should worry, is to fight against the correct kinds of hate, and acquire knowledge of the field to hit Cabal Therapy in good percentages. Everything else is pure fashion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojeh

Btw, I am seriously thinking about Tireless Tribe in Sideboard. If I could get 2 or 3 slots I would absolutely gonna play them to fight Relic. Do you think it's exaggerated?

---

I assumed people who played maindeck Firestorm just switched it with Tribe. I don't mind Tribe in the board if you're playing Firestorm main at all.

My Sideboard look like this:

4x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Dread Return
1x Iona
1x FKZ
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Elesh Norn
1x Angel of Despair

The only flexible slot I can think is FKZ, and I'd need about 3 slots to fit Tireless Tribe. That's the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojeh

My Sideboard look like this:

4x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Dread Return
1x Iona
1x FKZ
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Elesh Norn
1x Angel of Despair

The only flexible slot I can think is FKZ, and I'd need about 3 slots to fit Tireless Tribe. That's the problem.

---

Perhaps the flexible slot is Sadistic Hypnotist. To have him return, you should already have hit a Breakthrough or a Cephalid Coliseum. In that case, you already have plenty of Cabal Therapy in the graveyard, which should be enough to deal with any combo. Just study how combo works (mostly Hive Mind and ANT/TES) and you'll know what piece to name in every occasion.

I'd go for +1 Elesh Norn -1 Hypnotist from that sideboard.

@Vandalize: Thanks for your opinion. Well, I usually prefer Hypnotist over FKZ, because it's less dependent on bridges for the combo matchup. I mean, if you have Hypnotist and one more creature, you can at least discard 4 cards from your opponent where a Zealot would do nothing relevant. Furthermore, it's black (can be pitched for Ichorid, as a last resource) and do not suffer to Echoing Truth that much.
On Elesh Norn, I really like her too, but in what matchups I should play more than 1? I just can't see that need with 4 maindecked Firestorm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vandalize

Perhaps the flexible slot is Sadistic Hypnotist. To have him return, you should already have hit a Breakthrough or a Cephalid Coliseum. In that case, you already have plenty of Cabal Therapy in the graveyard, which should be enough to deal with any combo. Just study how combo works (mostly Hive Mind and ANT/TES) and you'll know what piece to name in every occasion.

I'd go for +1 Elesh Norn -1 Hypnotist from that sideboard.

---

Plenty is not the word you were looking for here. Sadistic is miles better than fkz against any combo, exactly because the odd are that you have 1 or 2 therapies by the time you hit a Sadistic or FKZ, and sadistic can actually do something else than die if you just have 1-2 creatures in the board after the DR. Discarding their whole hand is usually gamebreaker against any combo.

IMO, FKZ is not needed in your board, Mojeh. But I'm not sure if Tireless is what you are looking for on its spot. Maybe just 4 grudges?

@Gui: Yeah, that's an option, or maybe a Darkblast. I am more inclined to Darkblast actually.

Hey folks,
I don't know if it has already been braught up, but Surgical Extraction has seen much more play since the printing of Delver of Secrets and especially Snapcaster Mage, Crypts and Relics seem to be played less.

Memory's journey seems to be a good answer against Extraction since good players won't use Extraction on a Dredger in the early state of the game in most cases and will wait for more juicy targets like Ichorids or Bridges.
Memory's journey can save your important graveyard cards from being removed.

It also randomly improves matchups against other graveyard-dependant decks like Dredge and Reanimator.

Discuss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum

Hey folks,
I don't know if it has already been braught up, but Surgical Extraction has seen much more play since the printing of Delver of Secrets and especially Snapcaster Mage, Crypts and Relics seem to be played less.

Memory's journey seems to be a good answer against Extraction since good players won't use Extraction on a Dredger in the early state of the game in most cases and will wait for more juicy targets like Ichorids or Bridges.
Memory's journey can save your important graveyard cards from being removed.

It also randomly improves matchups against other graveyard-dependant decks like Dredge and Reanimator.

Discuss.

---

Yeah, it has been brought up before and most people agreed that it's an okay card as a 2- or 3-off if you expect loads of Surgical Extractions plus Snapcaster Mages and/or Reanimator decks, but pretty much useless otherwise.

I Topped today on small local tournament with old good fashion list:


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Deep Analysis
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of the Lost Truths
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast

//SB

4 Firestorm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Nature's Claim
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid


I faced:

Game one Goblins R/b 2-0 - Goblin pilot not playing too well

Game two Punishing Maverick - Quite Epic Game -Game one was fast win with Breakt+LED on turn 0.. He won game two with fast Ooze connected with two Crypts(not having nuts in my hand), Game three was worth even watching, he had Scryb Ranger Crypt, Ooze and Mom who had SS. I blow up crypt then go off with Elesh Norn connected with Darkblast - epic game in resp to Ooze ability with Cephalid Colioseum.

Game three against Mono W Painter with Scepter Chant combo, Maindeck E.Tutors, Humility, Ensarning Bridge, Moat.. and 2 Crypts, 2 Relics on SB. I get all of them and.. Won that was one of the best game ever played against so much hate deck I just drew all mine anti-hate cards, and played it well, for sad one - it was draw at the end, time run to the end and finished 1-1-1.. really sad.

Game four against CB-Thopter with MD Ensnaring Bridge and Humility - Thought MU had poor draws he had nuts. He assembly combo at turn 3 with FoW+Blue card and StP.. Easy win for him. Second one was similar but I didn't draw/dredge answer for Ensnaring Bridge, two turns later he found CB.. again lost.

Game five - Junk with 3 MD Deeds - this one was easy, he only had Extripates, I lost Ichorids, he lost all his life and hand after DR Gigantic troll with a lot of tokens for Cabal Therapies.

In top I faced Punishing Maverick from Swiss, Game was similar to this on swiss easy win game one with LED+Breakt, then game two I didn't find answer for fast ooze with Crypt and Mom, then game 3 was disgusting, I dredged 16 cards and didn't find anything revelant all lands few antihate cards and draw spells no Cabals, DR, Moeba
s, Ichorids.. nothing sad but true - ended tournament.

Normally I was playing dredge about more than half year ago last time. It was really funny to have some scary face after I pull up Turn 0 LED+Breakt when normally playing Maverick ^^.

After tournament I think that Firestorm is perfect answer for scavenging Ooze which is really house against Dredge (also connected with regular GY cleaner like bojuka/Crypt/Relics)

Definitively, LED dredge is amazing. What can you say about cutting 1 Thug for 1 Darkblast?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Definitively, LED dredge is amazing. What can you say about cutting 1 Thug for 1 Darkblast?

---

Wouldn't it be the opposite? I mean, if you go below 2 Thugs, you'll have a hard time recurring Ichorids.

And yeah, LED is amazing, haha.

EDIT: Made a really incredible/lucky play today... I had a pretty good gy position, 2 Zombies and 2 Gemstone Mines in play. I was facing Canadian Threshold with 4 Lands, a Goyf, and a unflipped Delver of Secrets. He draws a Surgical Extraction off his Library, and removes my Bridges and snapcast it for Ichorids (after that, his hand is empty). I dredged that turn and found my Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Played Narcomoeba from hand and recovered my Elesh Norn, killing Delver + Snapcaster and leaving goyf as a 2/3 cripple. Next turn, he makes some thinking, and passes. I think a LOT before dredging, and decide do dredge a Darkblast. He stares at my dredging and shakes my hand... He was holding a Dismember, if he could block with Goyf, he could dismember my Elesh Norn, and I wouldn't be able to finish him with only 2 Narcomoeba left in the library (he had 8 life).