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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
If the rumours of the set after Innistrad being Ravnica are true, then I'd expect a reprint of all the shocks and Dark Confidant (probably with his art butchered).
I'd also expect a real life "Master's Edition" of Modern Cards as a way to support the format. Duals, Fetches, Bob, goyf, cryptic, mutavault, etc. Maybe $10 for a pack of 3 Modern Staples?
Also, I don't see a problem with Goyf being back in standard. The removal is currently top knotch, mana fixing is pretty bad with the rotation of Zendikar, and if Innistrad is a graveyard set, I'd expect a shit-ton of graveyard removal to screw with Gofys.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
As long as they stay true to this quote found @ http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...g/daily/ld/144 'As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.'
This should directly mean reprints of Modern staples such that there never will be an 'availability' problem. If they don't adhere to what was said above as well as the context of the article, I am definitely sticking with Legacy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crovakiet
As long as they stay true to this quote found @
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...g/daily/ld/144 'As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.'
This should directly mean reprints of Modern staples such that there never will be an 'availability' problem. If they don't adhere to what was said above as well as the context of the article, I am definitely sticking with Legacy.
I think you guys are reading this wrong. This doesn't mean that every time a card hits $50 they are going to reprint it, it just means the supply will never run out. In 10 years there will be way fewer duals in circulation then there are now. I mean a lot of people who play Legacy now will get good nerdy jobs in the future then just put playsets in storage long term. Legacy is not sustainable without reprints in the long term.
Don't forget, WotC needs to push Standard. They have no interest in Eternal decks being equally as expensive as Standard decks. Once a card gets up in value there is a reluctance to reprint it. Don't forget that MTG is a collectible card game and if every year WotC is reprinting $50 cards and crashing their value to $10-15 they are going to piss a lot of people off and many of those people are going to leave, also stores which bought a card are going to be super angry. I mean if they reprinted Goyf and Confidant in the next set and a store had 2 playsets of each they would probably be out at least $400. I can't think of any card over $20 that has been reprinted that was actually playable. I mean a lot of old casual cards like Underworld Dreams and Psionic Blast got tanked, but as far as money cards go even those not on the reprint list haven't really shown up over the years.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Tarmogoyf will probably be banned in modern. Think about it. He's the best creature ever printed. He was a mistake. They banned Grave-Troll for goodness sake.
Modern will hurt legacy a bit, which is a mistake on Wizard's part.
They could do functional reprints if they wanted to such as
Snow covered Tundra
counts as an island and plains
this card has exclude. This card may not be played with tundra
done and they did not have to break the "reserved list"
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
I think you guys are reading this wrong. This doesn't mean that every time a card hits $50 they are going to reprint it, it just means the supply will never run out. In 10 years there will be way fewer duals in circulation then there are now. I mean a lot of people who play Legacy now will get good nerdy jobs in the future then just put playsets in storage long term. Legacy is not sustainable without reprints in the long term.
Don't forget, WotC needs to push Standard. They have no interest in Eternal decks being equally as expensive as Standard decks. Once a card gets up in value there is a reluctance to reprint it. Don't forget that MTG is a collectible card game and if every year WotC is reprinting $50 cards and crashing their value to $10-15 they are going to piss a lot of people off and many of those people are going to leave, also stores which bought a card are going to be super angry. I mean if they reprinted Goyf and Confidant in the next set and a store had 2 playsets of each they would probably be out at least $400. I can't think of any card over $20 that has been reprinted that was actually playable. I mean a lot of old casual cards like Underworld Dreams and Psionic Blast got tanked, but as far as money cards go even those not on the reprint list haven't really shown up over the years.
Saying that the 'supply will never run out' is still saying there will be reprints sometime in the future be it a couple years from now or 10 years from now.
Yes Legacy is not sustainable without reprints. You can say the same thing about Modern. You can say the same thing about any eternal format, however the other eternal formats i.e. Legacy and Vintage were not made with the explicit purpose or mission statement of solving an 'availability' problem. They were so players could play with the cards they have accumulated over the 18+ years of Magic with the exception of the banned/restricted lists. Modern is a format in which Wizards allegedly is pursuing a solution to the availability problem and that means reprints else its just going to be 'unsustainable' given several years or 10 years.
Its also why I am puzzled about why people are so excited about Modern if they feel reprints aren't going to be actively pursued. Like I said, rather play Legacy then. And yes I could play Vintage, but the power level to me is too high in that particular format where combo/control is dominant and aggro is almost nonexistent whereas Legacy has the usual mix of aggro/control/combo.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dragonwisdom
Tarmogoyf will probably be banned in modern. Think about it. He's the best creature ever printed. He was a mistake. They banned Grave-Troll for goodness sake.
Modern will hurt legacy a bit, which is a mistake on Wizard's part.
They could do functional reprints if they wanted to such as
Snow covered Tundra
counts as an island and plains
this card has exclude. This card may not be played with tundra
done and they did not have to break the "reserved list"
How will Modern hurt Legacy? I doubt real Legacy buffs would drop the format. Maybe it would hurt the influx of new players in the format. But the demographic of Legacy players is more of a affluent, slightly older folks with expendable income. Hobbyists.
Even if people cash out of Legacy for Modern, that just means mroe supply than demand, not a tanking of teh Eternal market. Vintage/EDH will be keeping staple prices for the foreseeable future even if the market goes bearish
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jandax
How will Modern hurt Legacy? I doubt real Legacy buffs would drop the format. Maybe it would hurt the influx of new players in the format. But the demographic of Legacy players is more of a affluent, slightly older folks with expendable income. Hobbyists.
Even if people cash out of Legacy for Modern, that just means mroe supply than demand, not a tanking of teh Eternal market. Vintage/EDH will be keeping staple prices for the foreseeable future even if the market goes bearish
I completely agree. For me half the fun of Legacy is spending money collecting all these old cards printed more than 10-years ago.
When someone asks me why I only play Legacy at my LGS, I promptly respond:
"You know that M12 box you just bought? Well, how much of it is still going to be worth the some $100 you spend on it? I'd rather buy a dual land."
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dragonwisdom
Tarmogoyf will probably be banned in modern. Think about it. He's the best creature ever printed. He was a mistake. They banned Grave-Troll for goodness sake.
Modern will hurt legacy a bit, which is a mistake on Wizard's part.
They could do functional reprints if they wanted to such as
Snow covered Tundra
counts as an island and plains
this card has exclude. This card may not be played with tundra
done and they did not have to break the "reserved list"
I'm pretty sure that they could have made that for Legacy but they haven't. What makes you say they'll do the "functional reprints" in Modern?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Goyf was played in Standard when it was around and it wasn't that amazing. I had a set in my Doran deck, but it was far from broken. It was good, but nothing that needed a ban. You forget Legacy decks tend to run less removal than a standard deck.
I know one thing, I voted that Modern poll as bleh. I'd never bother playing it. I'll play standard first if I want to play with newer cards.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
I'm pretty sure that they could have made that for Legacy but they haven't. What makes you say they'll do the "functional reprints" in Modern?
For my part it's extrapolation, but if you consider the 'mission statement' of Modern - to have a non-rotating format which isn't bound by availability issues - with quotes like this coming from Doug Beyer:
Quote:
The core set is also a storehouse for staple cards that have no other place to live. This has just become the feel of the core set, after years of repetition. The number of cards in the set is already defined—we couldn't balloon M12 up to four hundred different cards just to jam in every single fancy new card we wanted—so work must be done to save room for core set staples.
...
Our traditional three-set blocks (we used to call them expert-level sets; that term isn't on Magic's packaging anymore, though) have the capability of reprinting staple cards that they need, and we think strategic, thoughtful reprints are a good thing. But the core set should still feel like it's filling in gaps of basic effects for Standard. Not every set can print its own Naturalize, but sometimes Naturalize is just the card that development needs.
You have to kind of assume that these guys know what the others are saying, and that if it's implicit that Modern exists as a way for an Eternal format to be unbound by the scarcity of old print runs and the Reserved List, and that the Core Set is clearly the place where golden oldies go to get reprinted, it seems natural that Core Sets can augment Standard while also feeding Modern. I'm not excited about seeing Ravnica shocklands printed as fucking Mythics, but catch-as-catch-can.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TsumiBand
You have to kind of assume that these guys know what the others are saying, and that if it's implicit that Modern exists as a way for an Eternal format to be unbound by the scarcity of old print runs and the Reserved List, and that the Core Set is clearly the place where golden oldies go to get reprinted, it seems natural that Core Sets can augment Standard while also feeding Modern. I'm not excited about seeing Ravnica shocklands printed as fucking Mythics, but catch-as-catch-can.
There's no way shocklands (or any cycle of "dual" lands) will ever be printed as Mythics. This is a frequently quoted and misinterpreted snippet from Rosewater when complain why a "utility card" like Jace is a mythic, when it is in fact a utility card (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin.../daily/mr334):
Quote:
We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault or Char. That also addresses a long-standing issue that some players have had with certain rares like dual lands. Because we're making fewer cards per set, in the new world individual rares will be easier to acquire because each rare in a large set now appears 25% more often.
However, generic dual lands (i.e. lands that tap for mana of two different colors) do fit under this category, and it is explicitly stated as such.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crovakiet
Saying that the 'supply will never run out' is still saying there will be reprints sometime in the future be it a couple years from now or 10 years from now.
Yes Legacy is not sustainable without reprints. You can say the same thing about Modern. You can say the same thing about any eternal format, however the other eternal formats i.e. Legacy and Vintage were not made with the explicit purpose or mission statement of solving an 'availability' problem. They were so players could play with the cards they have accumulated over the 18+ years of Magic with the exception of the banned/restricted lists. Modern is a format in which Wizards allegedly is pursuing a solution to the availability problem and that means reprints else its just going to be 'unsustainable' given several years or 10 years.
Its also why I am puzzled about why people are so excited about Modern if they feel reprints aren't going to be actively pursued. Like I said, rather play Legacy then. And yes I could play Vintage, but the power level to me is too high in that particular format where combo/control is dominant and aggro is almost nonexistent whereas Legacy has the usual mix of aggro/control/combo.
People are going bonkers right now because reality hasn't set in yet. Modern decks are going to fall in between Extended and Legacy in price logically. Wizards is not going to reprint cards just to keep costs down, that undermines Standard and screws stores over. Dual lands haven't been reprinted in 17 years and things were fine up until a couple years ago. You can still get any non-blue dual for under $50 if you shop around, the problem is that in another 5-10 years they will be even harder to come by and climb further and list cards like Intuition will eventually hit $100 and keep going. These cards could have been reprinted once in 15 years and it would have been enough, but never is a long time. Don't expect WotC to reprint Confidant, Goyf, whatever other hot cards emerge every time they hit $40+. They may reprint one or the other at some point in the next couple years, but if the format gets popular expect a load of overpriced cards and a price point that is much closer to Legacy than Standard. If a $$$ card gets reprinted I would expect a FTV type release which doesn't affect price much or printed in the last set of a block at Mythic which gives it the lowest distribution. I think they might keep the utility/fetch lands low on purpose because like I said the higher the price goes on those the harder they are to reprint, and WotC likes to keep mana options open in Standard. As far as staples go though don't expect Christmas to come every year if you know what I'm saying.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
This might be out of topic but the new judge foil is Dark Confidant with an old frame (with the star streak foil)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Goyf will be banned simply because he makes every creature worse as far as power and toughness are concerned. You have to play around him. And every creature based deck MUST start with 4 goyf. This does not make for a healthy format.
Let me break it down.
other teir one creatures
Dark Confidant
StoneForge
V clique
Hopefully everyone will agree with the above list.
The above creatures are played because they do something very unique and powerful. But still none are as powerful as goyf (tho dark confidant is really close)
Legacy is filled with broken cards and combos. Think about it. Goyf is a vanilla creature. He does not do anything special like the above creatures, but he's played in legacy and played heavily.
Once Goyf is banned. How many creatures do think become better. Even playable. So many creatures are unplayable because of this guy. I love him. But I love him in legacy. I suspect the cache of Modern as that new diverse Archetypes become playable, hence the bannings of artifact lands and Grave troll. The alternative is watered down legacy decks.
It is my opinion that Goyf will one day be banned in Modern.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
It also bears mentioning that just because something gets reprinted over and over it doesn't necessitate its price dropping. How long was Birds of Paradise a 10 - 15 dollar card in Standard? About as far back as I can remember; I don't think that stopped until they printed Noble Hierarch, maaaaybe it was Ravnica but I suspect more the former than the latter. There's no reason to assume prices change with reprints; if 'Modern' format staples reach a certain price point it becomes incredibly questionable for Core Sets to *not* contain them.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dragonwisdom
Tarmogoyf will probably be banned in modern. Think about it. He's the best creature ever printed. He was a mistake. They banned Grave-Troll for goodness sake.
Modern will hurt legacy a bit, which is a mistake on Wizard's part.
Nope, it's their intention. They make little to no money of Legacy, and Modern is a format way more likely to be affected by new printings, which sells them more packs.
Quote:
They could do functional reprints if they wanted to such as
Snow covered Tundra
counts as an island and plains
this card has exclude. This card may not be played with tundra
done and they did not have to break the "reserved list"
They said they thought about this, but it still is hard to do that for every card on the reserved list, and it "felt like cheating" to them
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
reprintings drop prices -period.
For everyone one example you have, I have about a thousand others where a reprinting dropped the price.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dragonwisdom
reprintings drop prices -period.
For everyone one example you have, I have about a thousand others where a reprinting dropped the price.
In a set or Wal-Mart box set yes. Judge or FTV, barely noticeable.
The fact remains they are not going to blindly reprint cards just to keep the cost down. Like I said, I think you can always expect lands to be reprinted whenever they feel like it, but for staples that surpass $30 I doubt it. I mean you may see one of these cards reprinted every 3-4 years but it's not going to be like WotC drops the hammer every time a card hits the magic number and burn it down to 1/4 of what it was worth by shoehorning it in a set or sticking it in a $20 box set. Much more likely is they will be the selling point of a FTV set (which always seem to have that one $40ish card as the centerpiece) which barely affects the price in the end.
The problem with reprinting cards just to keep the value down is that you screw everyone who paid top dollar for that card. If Modern becomes popular that means stores start stocking the cards. If you slash a $50 card every year with a reprint in a drafted set or DD you are going to make a lot of stores and players unhappy. Much more likely is the FTV print which makes stores happy as it gives them an in demand product they can sell way over retail and it keeps the people who bought a card at $50 happy because they don't lose $160 in value per playset.
Of course the old reprint argument gets turned upside down by Jace. We learned that Mystic spot in a 3rd set of a block is the safe place to reprint high demand cards to keep their value. I mean if a card hits $100 on demand and you reprint it in that slot it's going to be Jace availability and Jace demand because people are going to know it was a $100 card a month before and probably will be again, then add in Standard demand and I don't see such a card dipping under $80.
Also you guys aren't taking into account when WotC says Modern is an "affordable" Eternal format, they are comparing in to Legacy. If your Modern deck has a playset of Jaces, Confidants, and Goyfs, it is still less expensive then simply the lands in Team America by a large margin. Don't expect a budget format in Modern. If you want a budget Eternal format play pauper.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I don't expect to pay $5 for my modern deck, but I also don't expect to pay $60 for a Dark Confidant, $40 for a blue shockland and $100 for a Tarmogoyf, and lets face it, between Vintage, Legacy, Modern and EDH, that's how much these cards are going to end up costing.
In an interview with 'I Came to Game' Richard Garfield states that he feels that about $20 is the most that he thinks a competitive rare should cost; any more than that, and it's harmful to the game. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect reprints that will push Modern staples into that price range. Now, as soon as I saw Modern revealed as a format for the community cup, I snap bought some shocklands on the cheap, and as soon as it was confirmed, I bought a few more, as well as Bitterblossoms, Mutavaults, etc, so I already have all the cards I'll need for a while (Give or take a couple shocklands), and I still am all for reprinting the staples. I want to finally see an eternal format succeed where every other one has failed; card availability, and from what WoTC has said so far, it looks like they are able and willing to keep the prices down. Don't forget, WoTC isn't stupid. They know that the USA is in a recession, and they know that in order for people to invest in their new format, the price has to be right.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
This might be out of topic but the new judge foil is Dark Confidant with an old frame (with the star streak foil)
I am very happy that they are continuing this trend of reprinting awesome cards with the old card frame. I just wish they would print them non-foil... Regardless, this is a nice development. My preference for magic card aesthetics is frozen in time in 1994 when I started. I prefer old style, non-digital art, old card frame, non foil, and even the old language like "Summon X" instead of the bland and sterile "Creature - X." But just seeing something in the old card frame makes me happy even if it's marred with a big shiny shooting star :)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
This might be out of topic but the new judge foil is Dark Confidant with an old frame (with the star streak foil)
I am very happy that they are continuing this trend of reprinting awesome cards with the old card frame. I just wish they would print them non-foil... Regardless, this is a nice development. My preference for magic card aesthetics is frozen in time in 1994 when I started. I prefer old style, non-digital art, old card frame, non foil, and even the old language like "Summon X" instead of the bland and sterile "Creature - X." But just seeing something in the old card frame makes me happy even if it's marred with a big shiny shooting star :)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honestabe
I don't expect to pay $5 for my modern deck, but I also don't expect to pay $60 for a Dark Confidant, $40 for a blue shockland and $100 for a Tarmogoyf, and lets face it, between Vintage, Legacy, Modern and EDH, that's how much these cards are going to end up costing.
In an interview with 'I Came to Game' Richard Garfield states that he feels that about $20 is the most that he thinks a competitive rare should cost; any more than that, and it's harmful to the game. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect reprints that will push Modern staples into that price range. Now, as soon as I saw Modern revealed as a format for the community cup, I snap bought some shocklands on the cheap, and as soon as it was confirmed, I bought a few more, as well as Bitterblossoms, Mutavaults, etc, so I already have all the cards I'll need for a while (Give or take a couple shocklands), and I still am all for reprinting the staples. I want to finally see an eternal format succeed where every other one has failed; card availability, and from what WoTC has said so far, it looks like they are able and willing to keep the prices down. Don't forget, WoTC isn't stupid. They know that the USA is in a recession, and they know that in order for people to invest in their new format, the price has to be right.
Yeah WotC is not stupid. Which is why they won't push the price of staples in an Eternal format lower than the prices on Standard legal cards like Prime Titan or the new planeswalkers which are all $30+ cards. I mean think about it, even Goyf and Confidant are only a little more expensive than Prime Titan at his peak. I think you are overestimating the draw of Modern when you say Confidant and Goyf are going to be $100 cards.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
Yeah WotC is not stupid. Which is why they won't push the price of staples in an Eternal format lower than the prices on Standard legal cards like Prime Titan or the new planeswalkers which are all $30+ cards. I mean think about it, even Goyf and Confidant are only a little more expensive than Prime Titan at his peak. I think you are overestimating the draw of Modern when you say Confidant and Goyf are going to be $100 cards.
Confidant is already 40, and goyf 70. I don't think you can argue that their being staples in a new format wouldn't raise their prices significantly.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I would severely enjoy it if they decided to make that Modern an official new format and Goyf and Confidant went through the roof in price hitting $200 in the first day. That would make a few people cry and wish they hadn't whined about Legacy prices. What's funny is it's entirely possible. Those two and Jace would be the fastest rising stars of all. Giving into consideration that Stoneforge Mystic is banned right off the bat.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Why do you think Stoneforge Mystic would be banned from the very beginning?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Because it would be format defining and sculpting, like it was in Standard. Don't forget you have access to even more Equips in Modern than you have in Standard. In general you could build a way better CAW Blade in Modern and it would be a DTB right away.
But tbh, i don't think they would ban it right away. Wizards as allways would need some consideration time i guess.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Modern magic confirmed:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/aaron-...odern-the-nod/
Hallowed fountain 25 USD sold out on SCG. Looks like my 40 set of rav duals @7.50 each is a great investment now!!! Most rav duals have jumped to 15-25. :)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ivanpei
Yeah, it was confirmed friday afternoon actually, and MTGOtraders.com immediatly sold out of everything as far as modern cards go
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
This will be a real litmus test for WotC's sincerity to maintain an accessible Eternal format, imo. Whether or not reprints drop prices, it's going to get to the point where certain reprints are unavoidable. If they can't find it in their hearts to toss the occasional Confidant, shockland, Nacatl or (assuming no banhammer) SFM into a Core Set from time to time (AND maintain an effective Banned list policy), then this format is already on its way out.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
They are unlikely to reprint everything. Most likely they will just toss in a reprint here and there in a duel deck or something like that. The expensive stuff like Goyf, Bob etc are going to be Judge foils (bob already is). As for the Rav dual dilemma, $25 for one is not as bad as $130 for an underground sea. Team America (or any tricolour Tier 1 legacy deck) Costs $2000-2500. Modern decks will likely cost $500-800. Thats a huge difference IMO and this makes Modern much more accessible.
Wizards can't just reprint whenever a card gets expensive. They've never mass reprinted a really expensive staple before. Massively expensive stuff like wasteland, bob, SOFI, natural order, etc get reprinted at judge foil and this does not affect prices much. I think we have to live with the fact that competitive magic will always be expensive. Being 1/4-1/3 the price of legacy, Modern is much cheaper and much easier to get into and I believe thats what wizards intended.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ivanpei
They are unlikely to reprint everything. Most likely they will just toss in a reprint here and there in a duel deck or something like that. The expensive stuff like Goyf, Bob etc are going to be Judge foils (bob already is). As for the Rav dual dilemma, $25 for one is not as bad as $130 for an underground sea. Team America (or any tricolour Tier 1 legacy deck) Costs $2000-2500. Modern decks will likely cost $500-800. Thats a huge difference IMO and this makes Modern much more accessible.
Wizards can't just reprint whenever a card gets expensive. They've never mass reprinted a really expensive staple before. Massively expensive stuff like wasteland, bob, SOFI, natural order, etc get reprinted at judge foil and this does not affect prices much. I think we have to live with the fact that competitive magic will always be expensive. Being 1/4-1/3 the price of legacy, Modern is much cheaper and much easier to get into and I believe thats what wizards intended.
I agree with you here. I think we'll immediatly see a reprinting of Goyf in one way or another, because his price is pretty high right now, nevermind when Modern gets going. I think the same thing goes for Bob. Shocks will probably be 25 for blue, 15 for non-blue for a while, and then they'll probably get printed next fall, as that set is allegedly a return to Ravnica. I definitely don't expect WoTC to make modern super cheap, but I sure don't expect them to sit back and allow their format staples to cost upwards to $60 for one copy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I don't see why a rising price would be bad for Wizards?
Lets imagine this situation:
Modern gets announced this fall. Shockduals rise to 20$ a piece. They slowly keep rising up to a peak of lets say 30$ for the Fountain/Pool/Grave. So far, Wizards has not lost money and has grown a new format. Compared to standard or even to Legacy, prices would be ok, because its somewhere between Standard and Legacy - which also represents the position of the format.
Next summer, Wizards announces to reprint the Duals in the following Block. People will surely then buy a lot of Boxes, because they hope to pull Duals / Foil Duals. Even more people would then join the format, seeing that especially Standard players will get their hands on the Staples for an Eternal format. As soon as Standard rotates them out, many people might also consider playing Modern then, because, as stated before, they would allready have major parts of the needed staples.
Call me naive for putting all this so simple, but wouldn't this just be a genius act. I can really imagine Wizards doing this, and am convinced that they will reprint the Duals.
Still, getting your hands on them RIGHT NOW should not be a bad idea, they will keep rising, i don't yet see a real hype and i am sure the Hype will come very soon, when the majority of players recognizes Aaron's statement. Don't forget its weekend that this was stated....
Also since more and more people are playing Highlander formats, its most unlikely that the duals would make a big fall, before they are announced to be reprinted.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ivanpei
They are unlikely to reprint everything. Most likely they will just toss in a reprint here and there in a duel deck or something like that. The expensive stuff like Goyf, Bob etc are going to be Judge foils (bob already is).
Though I'm not sure you were arguing it would, judge foils barely affect the prices of cards - that's why WotC lets judge foils get printed at all. An extra 400-500 playsets certainly helps, but doesn't make any real dent.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honestabe
I agree with you here. I think we'll immediatly see a reprinting of Goyf in one way or another, because his price is pretty high right now, nevermind when Modern gets going. I think the same thing goes for Bob. Shocks will probably be 25 for blue, 15 for non-blue for a while, and then they'll probably get printed next fall, as that set is allegedly a return to Ravnica. I definitely don't expect WoTC to make modern super cheap, but I sure don't expect them to sit back and allow their format staples to cost upwards to $60 for one copy.
There are $35 cards in Standard right now. Twice in the past two & 1/2 years there have been staples in Standard over $50 (Jace and Baneslayer in M10). I think it's extremely naive of people to think there will be an Eternal format without $60 cards. That's why I think Modern is largely a hype format right now. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the people saying they can't wait to play it are the same people who are going to be crying next year when they go to build a deck and it's $500.
I think Bob showing up as a judge promo shows they have no intention to reprint him in the return to Ravnica. Tarmogoyf will probably be reprinted at some point because he's a Future Sight card and it would heavily push a set he's in, I think initially he was just a way to forecast Planeswalkers as a card type but he could easily fit into the next set with a horror theme or in a return to Ravnica as a Golgari guild creature.
I think the way WotC is going with Modern is going to be keeping the lands low in price, which makes sense for them because they like to have their options open for Standard anyways.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
There are $35 cards in Standard right now. Twice in the past two & 1/2 years there have been staples in Standard over $50 (Jace and Baneslayer in M10). I think it's extremely naive of people to think there will be an Eternal format without $60 cards. That's why I think Modern is largely a hype format right now. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the people saying they can't wait to play it are the same people who are going to be crying next year when they go to build a deck and it's $500.
I think Bob showing up as a judge promo shows they have no intention to reprint him in the return to Ravnica. Tarmogoyf will probably be reprinted at some point because he's a Future Sight card and it would heavily push a set he's in, I think initially he was just a way to forecast Planeswalkers as a card type but he could easily fit into the next set with a horror theme or in a return to Ravnica as a Golgari guild creature.
I think the way WotC is going with Modern is going to be keeping the lands low in price, which makes sense for them because they like to have their options open for Standard anyways.
One exception of a very expensive card is not a big deal, but when the format staples (Bob, Jace, Goyf) are all $60+, something's wrong. We all know how expensive Jace was, but WoTC admitted that they planned on reprinting him in M12, until he became too much of a problem. Before it changed, Goyf was $25-ish and during the last 'old extended' season off-season, and when extended time rolled around he jumped to $100. I don't think it's a coinsidence that they changed extended for the next season.
Though they may not publicly say it, WoTC doens't like it when cards are too expensive. It makes them look bad, and keeps people away from the game. I really, really doubt they want their NEW format to be immediatly overshadowed by high prices and the negativity that follows them.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
It's impossible for them to have an eternal format without having higher prices on staples, it's supply and demand and these cards in question are in lower supply for the trade binders. Most copies were already absorbed by eternal players or dealers hands so the prices will spike quite a bit and stay there. The shocks have a likely reprint coming. The rumored return to ravnica could even bring them back (Ally colors in the large set, then enemy colors in one of the later sets sort of like invasion block style) if they don't in a core set. Even back in the days of the rav block wizards announced they would likely come back and that's why they gave them very neutral names.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honestabe
One exception of a very expensive card is not a big deal, but when the format staples (Bob, Jace, Goyf) are all $60+, something's wrong. We all know how expensive Jace was, but WoTC admitted that they planned on reprinting him in M12, until he became too much of a problem. Before it changed, Goyf was $25-ish and during the last 'old extended' season off-season, and when extended time rolled around he jumped to $100. I don't think it's a coinsidence that they changed extended for the next season.
Though they may not publicly say it, WoTC doens't like it when cards are too expensive. It makes them look bad, and keeps people away from the game. I really, really doubt they want their NEW format to be immediatly overshadowed by high prices and the negativity that follows them.
Still this is an eternal format, WotC can't even keep $30+ cards out of Standard. I see reprints of Goyf in the next 3-4 years because it's future shifted, it would sell many packs, it's not broken in T2 at all, it fits nicely with their plans for Modern, and it's a card that fits in 70% of sets flavor wise or even a base set if they went that route. I see all the lands being under $20. I see the enemy M12 duals coming in the next block to keep the enemy shocklands low when they reprint them in "HOOK", I also see Onslaught fetchlands coming back as soon as Shocklands are out of Standard (which would put fetch + shock in Ext for ~6 solid years again since people might actually play Ext then). With those moves I think all the good duals in Modern will be extremely accessible and in the $10-15 max range within 3-4 years. Of course ON fetches aren't relevant unless they reprint them that's just my assumption on what will happen.
Keeping the lands cheap is vital to the format. Everything else is a toss up. I mean if they reprint Goyf than Jace is the most expensive card with Confidant #2 and even if they are $50 a piece that is still only $15 more than the most expensive card in Standard right now. Jace only is a 4x in control and straight up control is a rough bet in Modern. I mean if you can put together a 3 color mana base for $100-$150 in an Eternal format that makes it about 10x less expensive than Legacy off the bat. People keep saying all these cards are going to blow up in value which is true to a point, but at the same time Legacy demand has never been higher, many of the people who take Modern seriously already have the cards from Legacy, the people who still need the cards are mostly people who are coming into Modern for the first time.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm honestly just stoked that modern is going to be a real format. In my city, everybody loves legacy and wishes they could get into it. However, it is just too expensive. Modern is a really nice alternative as the "cheaper" eternal format. Sound familiar? This is starting to look like the vintage-legacy split a few years back. I think legacy popularity will stagnate from now on. We are honestly looking at vintage level prices with legacy at the moment. If scg replaces legacy with modern in their opens, legacy as a format will be in big trouble. If scg hosts all 3 formats, that would be the best case scenario.
Modern is coming, we all just need to adapt and deal with it. I for one am happy because people simply cannot play legacy due to the price barrier. I just hope modern does not replace legacy as the premier eternal format. Ideally 3 scg open formats would be best. They can run em at the same time like with their limited opens. Standard on Saturday and modern/legacy on Sunday. The big guns will have to choose between legacy and modern but that looks like the only way forward.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Luckily, the majority of the Legacy staples are modern cards anyway. Sure there's a few older Legends cards, but for the most part it's all newer stuff powering our Legacy decks anymore. About the only thing we lose is a lot of the enablers.
So unless you bet your farm on a pile of Moats and Lion's eye's, you're in good shape anyway. Duals won't get hurt much with EDH and collector's keeping those high.
The kicker is they still technically said it's going to be a supported format from here on out. This is the tester. In all reality, it's probably heck of an indicator, but you never know.
I can't wait for the $100 Ravnica duals. lol I'll love watching people flip out over that. Goyf and Confidant are already on the way there now.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ivanpei
I'm honestly just stoked that modern is going to be a real format. In my city, everybody loves legacy and wishes they could get into it. However, it is just too expensive. Modern is a really nice alternative as the "cheaper" eternal format. Sound familiar? This is starting to look like the vintage-legacy split a few years back. I think legacy popularity will stagnate from now on. We are honestly looking at vintage level prices with legacy at the moment. If scg replaces legacy with modern in their opens, legacy as a format will be in big trouble. If scg hosts all 3 formats, that would be the best case scenario.
Modern is coming, we all just need to adapt and deal with it. I for one am happy because people simply cannot play legacy due to the price barrier. I just hope modern does not replace legacy as the premier eternal format. Ideally 3 scg open formats would be best. They can run em at the same time like with their limited opens. Standard on Saturday and modern/legacy on Sunday. The big guns will have to choose between legacy and modern but that looks like the only way forward.
Legacy is in trouble in the long term no doubt, as to what constitutes "long term" is anyone's guess. SCG routinely sets new attendance records with their Legacy events, so I doubt that the change will come in the next couple years, but when you start to get 3-4-5 plus years down the road it's hard to say. The only way I ever see myself taking Modern seriously is if it's run side-by-side with Standard on Saturday, because there are times when I'd rather play anything than Standard. Ironically if Modern becomes popular it will drive up the price of Modern cards and steady the price of Legacy cards which will slow the growth of Modern and extend the time frame on Legacy being viable. In the next couple years though I wouldn't worry about Legacy too much. It's wide open as ever and still the superior format in every way to Modern. Personally when Legacy "dies" and I can't find a big event at least every other month I am officially done with MTG. I'm guessing I'll be done with Magic way before then anyways though. If SCG steps out of Legacy someone will fill that void I think.
