[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

Great to hear from you again, Tony! Congrats on the wins!

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Thank you Zot!

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Originally Posted by sauce

tony, grats on your win.

I do not play Kozilek because I rarely would want to fetch it up. Usually you need Ulamog to kill a JTMS/Delver/Liliana to stabilize where a draw 4 cards would not do anything.
I cut him because both of the other targets are just superior. Now if you got nothing going on and you just get to cast him and the board is clear otherwise, then yeah, you will draw 4 and win the game. Ulamog would most likely do the same thing (win) in that situation for 1 more mana. The 1 mana difference is important, but I don't find Kozilek's effect necessary in the way most games play out. Maybe it's just based on how I play.

Thanks for watching my vids, I will upload more when I record them :)

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I have been in several situations where my best chance of survival was to use the draw four of Kozilek to find an answer land (typically Glacial Chasm but also sometimes Glimmerpost), a means to find one of the answer lands (Crop Rotation, Map, one or both pieces of a Show and Tell/Titan combo) or a Moment's Peace. Even a timely Candelabra has given me an immediate reset of lands and let me hardcast a Titan. With the sheer volume of cards Kozilek gives you, and sometimes an active Top, finding a means to make it another turn are very possible, and often a better path to take than destroying a single permanent with Ulamog. I play with the answer lands in mind and Kozilek just lets me bridge to them easily. Because of these situations, I place a huge value on Glacial Chasm and almost never side it out.

Kozilek will often be my go-to Eldrazi when I just want one of the aliens but can't quite reach Emrakul; I usually save Ulamog for specific problems. If Kozilek gets answered but does not get me to the magic 20 mana the next turn (which is a longshot itself), then it's nice to be able to get Ulamog and reapply the pressure immediately. Having Kozilek gives me added usage for Eye of Ugin, which makes the land feel even more relevant.

It's a pleasure watching you play, and I think you are more careful and conservative than I usually am. Especially with your fetching basics and not rushing Show and Tell. I will often jam Show and Tell immediately third turn. But that is probably just an extension of my love for Reanimator and my instinct to "just go for it." :P

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

Congrats on the victory. I've seen your lists on MTGGoldfish as well! :)

I'm curious about obstinate baloth. He's obviously good against Lilliana & Burn. Do you think it's really worth it? I was playing it, got it in for free off of a Hymn. It killed a lilliana and then did 12 points of damage before getting outclassed by a tarmogoyf. At that point in that particular match, we were in the topdeck war and Mono-green post failed to close out the game. For that particular event, baloth was a 1 of, so yeah...we were in magical Christmas land!

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I do think Obstinate Baloth is worth it, as I think it is the best answer to Liliana. I would go as far as saying that Liliana is the most devastating card against our deck if left unchecked, even more so than Wasteland or Blood Moon. With the Baloth, you actually don't need a "magical Christmas land" scenario for him to be effective. In fact, his strength is psychological more than anything. I've had opponents Thoughtseize me turn one and see one in my hand. Obviously they did not choose the beast, but it affected their decision making for the rest of the game. It made them hold back their Hymns and made them unable to uptick their Lilianas. If they decide to just bite the bullet and use a discard effect to get it out of your hand, then they are wasting several of their resources (a Liliana edict ability, blocking with their creatures, turns to do all of this), which is a win for you. Plus it's conveniently out of Abrupt Decay range and can't be beaten in combat besides against Goyf and maybe Tombstalker. To keep a Goyf's size under control, you can try to use Bojuka Bog plus Vesuvas. I used to run four of them to maximize my chances of having one in hand; it was extremely useful to get one and threaten, if not surprise, the opponent.

Been testing Memnarch as Rock Lee has been and I just can't get myself to like it. I have boarded it in for the longer grindy matchups similar to Shardless BUG. I feel that triple blue is difficult to get to and at the point where I would tutor for memnarch cast it and hope to use the ability I might as well just used kozilek or in some cases just kill with emrakul. I think I would prefer Oracle of Mul Daya in that slot. Is there something I might be doing wrong? Am I misunderstanding the purpose of that card?

Oracle of mul daya is one of my pet cards, and I couldn't get her to work main board either. I tried really hard with her. Haven't tried memnarch yet; but just on a surface level he seems like he's more of a situational card. Though the situations he can fix that an eldrazi can't do seem pretty few and far between

Hey Rock Lee what do you think the best list is atm? I've been fiddling around with the board as well and not really sure what I want for the fair matchups. How much do you like revokers over needles?
Let me know if you wanna see my current list as well.

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Originally Posted by chris80rowland

Hey Rock Lee what do you think the best list is atm? I've been fiddling around with the board as well and not really sure what I want for the fair matchups. How much do you like revokers over needles?
Let me know if you wanna see my current list as well.

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This is probably the stablest list for an unknown meta.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
2 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M10] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth


The Bebs could be your meta call card. It should have at least a remote amount of play against storm. Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, Venarian Glimmer, Piracy Charm, Miscalculation, Spell Snare. Just my local meta has transformed into Big-Red.format since it destroys 12post and there are regularly 3-4 12post decks there.

Experimenting with Words of wind again.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Experimenting with Words of wind again.

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I'm skeptical but curious. How do you intend to use Words of Wind?

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

I'm skeptical but curious. How do you intend to use Words of Wind?

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Mostly as a wincon with Top. But I've used it to reset needles, save cloudposts, and reset chasms.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

This is probably the stablest list for an unknown meta.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
2 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M10] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth


The Bebs could be your meta call card. It should have at least a remote amount of play against storm. Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, Venarian Glimmer, Piracy Charm, Miscalculation, Spell Snare. Just my local meta has transformed into Big-Red.format since it destroys 12post and there are regularly 3-4 12post decks there.

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Do you not like the kozilek anymore, im still on 4 show and tells and I feel like its a lot easier to have a fatty with him as well, and hes castable very often.
Im also have not tried the chain of vapor yet either how do you like it, never even thought about it before.
Is Baloth better than thragtusk? I guess its better vs jund? Is that what its mainly for?
I like the blue blasts, ive been seeing too many blood moons recently so they help, ive been using hydro blasts though I like the art too much :P
Thanks for the help!

Got 1st place in my weekly legacy event again with this list:

// Lands
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DS] Memnarch

Matchups were Merfolk, Death and Taxes, Burn. All 2-0'd.

Ocassionally I check MTGO results always looking for different techs on decks (including 12 Post). I just saw a list that played Devastation Tide over Engineered Explosives. What are your thoughts on this? Seems like it could really blow out a few archetypes, but mediocre against others. :smile:

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Originally Posted by into_play

No foils for me, but I am working on getting Beta Tropical Islands. Two down, two to go.

I recently won our AZMagicPlayers Legacy Championship series with a UG build. A report with some of my thoughts, match details and sideboarding changes was posted:

http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articl...ort-1st-place/

BTW sauce, thanks for posting all of the videos, it's good to hear some insight into your decisions and plays. Keep it up, would like to see more!

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Thank you for the write up and congrats on your win.

Might have to try the 4 show and tells and the extra Eldrazi, play in a field with lots of burn and a decent amount of combo.

Why Flusterstorm over Swan Song? Swan Song counters enchantments like Sneak Attack and Dream Halls as well as being a hard counter.

Is Tabernacle worth it? Seems like it is vulnerable to wasteland and it doesn't make mana.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Got 1st place in my weekly legacy event again with this list:

// Lands
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DS] Memnarch

Matchups were Merfolk, Death and Taxes, Burn. All 2-0'd.

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Congrats.

Why Revoker over Needle?
Is the vulnerability to creature removal and costing 2 worth the ability to hit Lion's Eye Diamond? Don't think Revoker is winning any races as a 2/1 either. Needle costing 1 is important because you can set it on turn 1 before your opponent goes like set it on Wasteland against a delver deck before they can daze/spell pierce it.

How is Chain of Vapor? Is the bounce that important? Repeal at least draws you a card.

Memnarch sounds like it might be worth trying against equipment decks since some swords can be pretty annoying.

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Originally Posted by Kirika

Congrats.

Why Revoker over Needle?
Is the vulnerability to creature removal and costing 2 worth the ability to hit Lion's Eye Diamond? Don't think Revoker is winning any races as a 2/1 either. Needle costing 1 is important because you can set it on turn 1 before your opponent goes like set it on Wasteland against a delver deck before they can daze/spell pierce it.

How is Chain of Vapor? Is the bounce that important? Repeal at least draws you a card.

Memnarch sounds like it might be worth trying against equipment decks since some swords can be pretty annoying.

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I have played Phyrexian Revoker mainboard in the past. While I generally prefer having Needles, it certainly isn't wrong to use Revoker.

While being 2 mana has its benefits and disadvantages, you seem to be stuck on the mindset that you should always play needle turn 1 naming wasteland on the blind. This has been discussed several times in the past. Turn 1 needles is a terrible play because not only do you not have any idea what the opponent is playing, but there are much more important cards that could be named rather than wasteland (Liliana, Sneak Attack, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic for example) and you shouldn't be blown out by wastleand to the proportion most people think this deck gets blown out to. If you are getting blown out to this level repeatedly you may want to reinvestigate how you're playing this deck. I'm actually much more concerned about Sensei's Divining Top resolving and am generally pretty happy if they decide to counter a needle.

The idea behind it being a creature is that it can act as fodder for sacrificing and as a way to block. You'll rarely attack with it unless you're facing a combo deck which in that case Revoker can singlehandedly win games.

I haven't tested chain but I wouldn't be unhappy playing it. The main thing I would be happy about is the fact that it is so damn cheap and the drawback is barely a drawback to you.

Blade decks are very positive matchups, you shouldn't generally have to sideboard to win those.

Any advice for matches vs Omni-tell?

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Originally Posted by Ponders

Any advice for matches vs Omni-tell?

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it's a bad matchup, you have to counter s&t and dream halls.

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Originally Posted by sauce

it's a bad matchup, you have to counter s&t and dream halls.

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I actually rarely counter dream halls in that matchup. Omni isn't designed to gain card advantage in any manner, so if you counter an Enter the infinite cast via dream halls with a swan song, you win that exchange and then some. Just remember not to side our your karakas incase they desperation show & tell Emrakul, something I've lost to before with a fist full of counters thinking I could handle anything.

after looking over a few omni tell list, can that deck even beat karakas, plus floating emrakul on top.
lab man is a way but i guess its not the preferred win con. without casting ETI i guess they get to hard cast emrakul

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Originally Posted by Kirika

Congrats.

Why Revoker over Needle?
Is the vulnerability to creature removal and costing 2 worth the ability to hit Lion's Eye Diamond? Don't think Revoker is winning any races as a 2/1 either. Needle costing 1 is important because you can set it on turn 1 before your opponent goes like set it on Wasteland against a delver deck before they can daze/spell pierce it.

How is Chain of Vapor? Is the bounce that important? Repeal at least draws you a card.

Memnarch sounds like it might be worth trying against equipment decks since some swords can be pretty annoying.

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Originally Posted by 203995014

I have played Phyrexian Revoker mainboard in the past. While I generally prefer having Needles, it certainly isn't wrong to use Revoker.

While being 2 mana has its benefits and disadvantages, you seem to be stuck on the mindset that you should always play needle turn 1 naming wasteland on the blind. This has been discussed several times in the past. Turn 1 needles is a terrible play because not only do you not have any idea what the opponent is playing, but there are much more important cards that could be named rather than wasteland (Liliana, Sneak Attack, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic for example) and you shouldn't be blown out by wastleand to the proportion most people think this deck gets blown out to. If you are getting blown out to this level repeatedly you may want to reinvestigate how you're playing this deck. I'm actually much more concerned about Sensei's Divining Top resolving and am generally pretty happy if they decide to counter a needle.

The idea behind it being a creature is that it can act as fodder for sacrificing and as a way to block. You'll rarely attack with it unless you're facing a combo deck which in that case Revoker can singlehandedly win games.

I haven't tested chain but I wouldn't be unhappy playing it. The main thing I would be happy about is the fact that it is so damn cheap and the drawback is barely a drawback to you.

Blade decks are very positive matchups, you shouldn't generally have to sideboard to win those.

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Our numbered friend (203995014) answers the question perfectly. Revoker is there as a healing salve vs decks where needle is only for wasteland, while Revoker can handily win you the game against "bad" matchups (elves/storm) game 1 where needle couldn't. I regularly kill sneakattack and storm with revoker beats (since your deck transforms into 9-mana-ugin-for-revoker.deck.) Against Elves you just need to buy a turn for show & tell/candelabra'd Titan, or to stop their deck from transforming into DRS-untap-deck and kill you through glacial chasm. The games where Revoker being a creature is a liability over needle (Pox, BUGwalker, blade-shells) you were going to name Lilliana anyway, so their only live removal (abrupt decay) still hit needle. Lastly with Revoker/Chain of Vapor combination, there are no combinations of decks at the moment where you would need to chain of vapor while Revoker is in play, but several where you can avert crisis that one turn when revoker was bounced with the CoV. The synergy seems nonexistent, but infact it is significant.

Chain is often there as unsummon. To enable repeal stalling on the play. But unlike unsummon or voidsnare, this has endgame benefits both reactionarily and to accelerate/save priority targets. From netting benefit out of wastelands without crop rotation, drawing cards from top, resetting candelabras, this has utility on many of your own permanents.

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Originally Posted by caw_86

after looking over a few omni tell list, can that deck even beat karakas, plus floating emrakul on top.
lab man is a way but i guess its not the preferred win con. without casting ETI i guess the get to hard cast emrakul

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Yes because they can keep casting enter the infinite to put 1 card back. You need 46 life to beat them with a karakas.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Yes because they can keep casting enter the infinite to put 1 card back. You need 46 life to beat them with a karakas.

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did not think of that, ive never played this match up before

4-0 last night with this list against merfolk, mud post, welder mud, and tezz affinity

havent acquired my own candelabra yet, but the magus has been a surprisingly descent stand in, after all it still is a candle, but very bad. put back in GSZ over third snt for it and dawnstrider out of the board

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [IA] Island
1 [IA] forest
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [AR] cavern of souls
1 [WWK] khalni garden

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the infinite gyre
1 [ZEN] oracle of mul daya
1 [5DN] trinket mage
1 [TS] magus of the candelabra


// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [MBS] green sun's zenith
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [SoK] Pithing Needle
1 [5DN] Engineered explosives
1 [ODY] moment's peace


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [ODY] moment's peace
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [SA] relic of progenitus
SB: 1 [MM] dawnstrider

did dawnstrider get his chance to shine finally? :) i have not gotten a chance to play mine out of the sb yet.

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Originally Posted by sauce

did dawnstrider get his chance to shine finally? :) i have not gotten a chance to play mine out of the sb yet.

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it got immediately forced against merfolk, if it resolved i would have won on the spot as i was at a high enough life total to take any swing and untap with him. i brought it in against affinity also but, it didnt matter in the games.

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Originally Posted by Ponders

Any advice for matches vs Omni-tell?

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As a previous Omnitell player, one way to hose the deck over is to bounce or Krosan grip omniscience/ dream halls with enter the infinite on the stack. It causes them to draw their whole deck and discard down to 7 cards, discard emrakul to trigger the reshuffle. They will have to keep show and tell, omniscience, enter the infinte, force, pact, wish, other blue card or island.

If it's still giving you problems, you so can play sphere of resistance or thorn of amethyst and try to apply pressure. To deal with that effect, they have to cunning wish to get a bounce spell spell. It also slows down all their digging to get the combo.

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

As a previous Omnitell player, one way to hose the deck over is to bounce or Krosan grip omniscience/ dream halls with enter the infinite on the stack. It causes them to draw their whole deck and discard down to 7 cards, discard emrakul to trigger the reshuffle. They will have to keep show and tell, omniscience, enter the infinte, force, pact, wish, other blue card or island.

If it's still giving you problems, you so can play sphere of resistance or thorn of amethyst and try to apply pressure. To deal with that effect, they have to cunning wish to get a bounce spell spell. It also slows down all their digging to get the combo.

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Not to tell you how Omnishow works, but I will. Even if omni/dream halls gets killed with Enter the Infinite on the stack, you still don't have to discard that turn. Invariably they have 4 force of wills in their hand, and simply cast another one next turn.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Not to tell you how Omnishow works, but I will. Even if omni/dream halls gets killed with Enter the Infinite on the stack, you still don't have to discard that turn. Invariably they have 4 force of wills in their hand, and simply cast another one next turn.

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Lol yeah my bad. :-P

In preparation of GP Jersey Shore, I'm testing this intriguing "variant" of the deck. Harkens back to older days of the deck where it was more of modern tron than anything. But I'm finding significant success with it locally, online, and in two-fisted testing.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [M15] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
2 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [RTR] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [JGC] Flusterstorm

A few notes. Memnarch is not off the table quite yet. The 15-anti combo sideboard is mostly what is being tested. Deciding if I can go to 14 with 1 memnarch as a cover-all, if I need vapor snags for infect, and how necessary the bebs are with a bolstered sideboard of spell hate are all on the chopping block.

Some positives:
- 3 Show & tell // 6 Show & Tellables (4 titan, 2 wurmcoil) is a mentally soothing value for me and I have found the most success with the 50% Show & Tells to Showables ratio. Revoker no longer main since his role got split between needle (waste/lilly/combo cards) and simulacrum/wurmcoil (life gain/stall/stabilize).
- Skimping on sideboard hate against terrible matchups is a bad habit of playing too much locally, where your sideboard gets fine tuned to people who know your deck, have specific strategum against you without having to scout you, and generally will punish you harder for a event with more than 10 rounds. Since the larger the event, the more rounds of random bad-meta call decks you will have to fight through before getting to tuned/meta appropriate decks.
- Wurmcoil is a positive beating, but does require a rethinking of several matchups and concepts. One is that properly calculating combat math was something this deck never had to do. Another is that I'm finding I needle/revoke jitte far more than normals to prevent combat tricks to prevent lifelink.

I like the direction of that list a lot. I think candle 2 will do more work than SnT 3 in that list though...

I think BEB and EE are very good right now too.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

I like the direction of that list a lot. I think candle 2 will do more work than SnT 3 in that list though...

I think BEB and EE are very good right now too.

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All cards I'm tinkering with at the moment. EE is redonk atm. Love it galore. Just want to get a concept of how bad tribal/tempo/elves is before I start preemptively warping a new direction for the deck.

Went 2-2 a local tourney with

Artifact
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Blue (11)
4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal
3 Show and Tell
1 Trinket Mage

Colorless (2)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog

Green (9)
3 Crop Rotation
1 Moment's Peace
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan

Lands (26) [24 real lands chasm and bog don't count]
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Cloudpost
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Khalni Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva

Sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast/Flusterstorm (burn/storm)
1 Engineered Explosives (any decks where I need removal for things that cost 0-2 sometimes 3 vs Bloodmoon.)
1 Flusterstorm (combo)
4 Force of Will (combo decks)
1 Moment's Peace (aggro)
1 Phyrexian Revoker (Planeswalkers, LED, Top)
1 Relic of Progenitus (Dredge, shrinking Goyf)
3 Swan Song (combo decks)

Beat Dredge and Shardless BUG and lost to Death and Taxes and BUG Delver.

Sure is nice to play a deck that beats dredge game 1.

Shardless BUG's didn't draw much discard and I was able to get there. Kalni garden was mvp making a plant to sacrifice to Liliana.

Against Death and Taxes I had two hands with blue land/fetch, post, top and business and didn't get a 3rd land for several turns losing both games.

I find Aven Mindcensor a huge pain against Death and taxes. Mindcensor nerfs fetches, prime time, map, and eye. You can't Explosives it cause it costs 3 and Repealing it isn't very effective because it has flash or can be vialed back in. Local Death and Taxes player runs 3 Mindcensors so its pretty annoying.

Should I be mulliganing hands with only 2 lands? I thought it wasn't terrible 2 lands and top to find more land with some business. Never got to 3 lands to show and tell a Titan/Eldrazi in either game though.

BUG delver I got hit with Hymms, Liliana and wasteland and Delver/Goyf got me. This is probably the worst match up. you don't want to run spells out into daze/spell peirce but then you get hit by Hymm to Torach or Liliana. Considering running Baloth but BUG delver is probably the worst match up I have played with 10 post so is it worth the sideboard space? I suppose Baloth is decent vs burn as well.

Thanks for the replies.

@203995014
Well sometimes you only have 1 cloud post or not much land and wasteland is a big concern so if I know I am on the play against a delver deck game 2 might play the turn 1 Needle if I don't have a Top.

Revoker being vulnerable to Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Terminus which are blanks versus Needle is a bigger deal then it costing 2.

Top is pretty intergral to the deck as it improves your draws and is good all the time.

Out of the blade decks, I find that deathblade post board with meddling mages + stoneforge for sword of feast and famine combined with Liliana and Thoughtseize, plus they have wastelands and counters can be pretty annoying.

@Ponders
Omni Tell is a bad match up. Bring in all your Force of Will, Swan Song, Flusterstorm and hope you can stop their show and tell/dream halls.

@Rock Lee
Played a few games vs storm and have pretty much a 15 card sideboard vs it so usually win games 2-3. Revoker on LED is really really good but Revoker being vulnerable to Bolt, Swords, Terminus in other match ups is an issue. I have Revokered wasteland vs Jeskai delver only to get it bolted and my cloudpost wastelanded.

Good points on Chain of Vapor might have to try that out at some point.

I like your list with the Wurmcoils and Solemn other then no Engineered Explosives.

I find Explosives so good as a catch all removing multiple Delvers,Zombie/Goblin Tokens, Elves, Goyfs, Bloodmoon/Bridge/Magus of the Moon/Imperial Recruiter). I can't see cutting Engineered Explosives. I like having 2 in the 75 with the Trinket Mage and 1 main.

How is only running 2 needles, I been on 3 needles and find that is a good number?

@Caw_86
Congrats. Candelabra is nice to have and can speed up your big plays but I find I board it out fairly often. How is Dawnstrider? Dislike that you have to keep discarding cards to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirika

Went 2-2 a local tourney with

[...]

@Rock Lee
Played a few games vs storm and have pretty much a 15 card sideboard vs it so usually win games 2-3. Revoker on LED is really really good but Revoker being vulnerable to Bolt, Swords, Terminus in other match ups is an issue. I have Revokered wasteland vs Jeskai delver only to get it bolted and my cloudpost wastelanded.

Good points on Chain of Vapor might have to try that out at some point.

I like your list with the Wurmcoils and Solemn other then no Engineered Explosives.

I find Explosives so good as a catch all removing multiple Delvers,Zombie/Goblin Tokens, Elves, Goyfs, Bloodmoon/Bridge/Magus of the Moon/Imperial Recruiter). I can't see cutting Engineered Explosives. I like having 2 in the 75 with the Trinket Mage and 1 main.

How is only running 2 needles, I been on 3 needles and find that is a good number?

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First off. you can't name lands with Revoker, so no wasteland.

Regarding Chain of Vapor I opted to bring in creatures that generate huge advantage over as a plan, but I'm still doing heavy testing.

Of all the permanents you listed for EE, and there are sevearl more that are huge, chain of vapor deals with them sufficiently. I am seriously considering vapor snag in the sideboard, mostly because of the card inkmoth nexus not being CoV'able.

Against DnT with heavy mindcensor I go heavy on control, and play 100% reactively. You can't afford to get mindcensor blown out, so letting them waste you with crop rotate up is fine so long as they aren't flashing in the bird in response. The colorless creature plan helps against DnT also, making Mother moot, and buying you gads of time. CoV is a lifesaver against DnT. I have found that far better than countering Cataclysm/Armageddon is floating tons of mana, then bouncing all the things they keep and re-stabilizing.

Bug is always a tricky matchup, where you can either go protect-the-Show&Tell /w flusters plan, Or you plan on dumping your whole hand fast with siding out Show & Tells and operate off of the board/tops/topdecks. I find the 2nd approach works better by far, because not only is hymn amusingly random, but if you hedge your bets on keeping risky-to-be-hymned hands and they hit you hard, you are dangerously vulnerable to tilting or simply getting blown out. I am hoping that the new list with more colorless creatures will abate some of the worries regarding bug's rng factor. Sometimes bug is bonkers beyond words and sometimes it feels like it is the world's worst durdle deck.

Funny, I was play testing last night pretty heavy against dnt and was having a hard time with it. I'm running an earlier list without cov though, so there's that.
I completely agree against bug; someone's face gets smashed in every time. Either mine or theirs, it's never a close game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

First off. you can't name lands with Revoker, so no wasteland.

Regarding Chain of Vapor I opted to bring in creatures that generate huge advantage over as a plan, but I'm still doing heavy testing.

Of all the permanents you listed for EE, and there are sevearl more that are huge, chain of vapor deals with them sufficiently. I am seriously considering vapor snag in the sideboard, mostly because of the card inkmoth nexus not being CoV'able.

Against DnT with heavy mindcensor I go heavy on control, and play 100% reactively. You can't afford to get mindcensor blown out, so letting them waste you with crop rotate up is fine so long as they aren't flashing in the bird in response. The colorless creature plan helps against DnT also, making Mother moot, and buying you gads of time. CoV is a lifesaver against DnT. I have found that far better than countering Cataclysm/Armageddon is floating tons of mana, then bouncing all the things they keep and re-stabilizing.

Bug is always a tricky matchup, where you can either go protect-the-Show&Tell /w flusters plan, Or you plan on dumping your whole hand fast with siding out Show & Tells and operate off of the board/tops/topdecks. I find the 2nd approach works better by far, because not only is hymn amusingly random, but if you hedge your bets on keeping risky-to-be-hymned hands and they hit you hard, you are dangerously vulnerable to tilting or simply getting blown out. I am hoping that the new list with more colorless creatures will abate some of the worries regarding bug's rng factor. Sometimes bug is bonkers beyond words and sometimes it feels like it is the world's worst durdle deck.

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Thank you for the reply

My bad on Revoker I think I had it on sword of feast and famine and then he wrecked me with it after killing the revoker.

Well the list you listed with the Wurmcoils wasn't running Chain of Vapor. Have to find some time to try out Chain of vapor build.

Haven't played the infect match that much but here having 3 Needles is really good to needle Inkmoth. There are only 2 infect players locally and I beat the last one I played.

I find Engineered Explosives to be game winning very often removing multiple problem permanents causing huge blow outs where a Chain of Vapor would have done not much.

In the BUG match up do you just jam your spells walking into Daze/Spell Pierce or do you play around those playing the Hymm lroulette? I find when I lose vs BUG, Hymm or Liliana is likely involved or multiple Delvers or Wasteland. I usually board out Maps and Candelabra in the BUG match up since they grow goyf and BUG tends to board in Null Rod/Needle and have Abrupt Decays.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirika

@203995014
Well sometimes you only have 1 cloud post or not much land and wasteland is a big concern so if I know I am on the play against a delver deck game 2 might play the turn 1 Needle if I don't have a Top. In the case of only having one cloudpost then you really shouldn't be that worried about getting Cloudpost wastelanded unless it's some kind of 2 land hand which in that case it might be ok to name wasteland on the blind. Against a deck like RUG delver where the only card you can name is Wasteland, then you would name it with needles. G2 you may play it T1 blind to try and draw out a daze or spell pierce. Otherwise you would probably want to name some other more important card such as Liliana or Sneak Attack. In the case of not having much land, Brainstorm or Sensei's Divining Top should pull you out of those situations relatively well. In your last scenario then that's probably okay but I would be more inclined to play a Map and then play needles turn 2 and hope they respond to needles instead of map.

Revoker being vulnerable to Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Terminus which are blanks versus Needle is a bigger deal then it costing 2. You really shouldn't be leaning on Needles to win the game most of the time. They're like elevators. Taking elevators are much easier than climbing stairs but it's certainly not impossible to climb the stairs. It's not like you actually need the elevator to climb upstairs. Another thing is that if they are using a kill card on it, it was either going to work anyway (abrupt decay) or it takes away damage from your face (lightning bolt or Swords to Plowshares) as Rock Lee pointed out. That said, I generally prefer the stickiness of Needles but I think it's wrong to completely dismiss Revoker just because it dies to certain cards.

Top is pretty intergral to the deck as it improves your draws and is good all the time. I don't think I ever said that was a bad card. In fact I think it's one of the best cards in the deck

Out of the blade decks, I find that deathblade post board with meddling mages + stoneforge for sword of feast and famine combined with Liliana and Thoughtseize, plus they have wastelands and counters can be pretty annoying. They're still too slow for that to really matter too much though. If you play smart you will win most of the time. It's not like Nic Fits where you literally can't lose the matchup but the matchup is still 60-40 in our favor from what I have seen

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Replies in red

Possible variant of the build I just posted is as follows. Not tested at all yet. Could be amazing, could be jank.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [ZEN] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
2 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [MBS] Shimmer Myr

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 1 [MR] Wizard Replica


Shimmer myr allows a Sligh approach to wurmcoil-titan on turn 5 with zero cloudposts. An interesting approach to a significant 3-drop outside of Show & Tell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Possible variant of the build I just posted is as follows. Not tested at all yet. Could be amazing, could be jank.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [ZEN] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
2 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [MBS] Shimmer Myr

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 1 [MR] Wizard Replica


Shimmer myr allows a Sligh approach to wurmcoil-titan on turn 5 with zero cloudposts. An interesting approach to a significant 3-drop outside of Show & Tell.

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I'm not entirely sure how giving artifacts Flash with Shimmer Myr is super helpful. Postboard, I see the appeal not only with Wizard Replica but also maintaining countermagic mana while being able to sneak in a Solemn Simulacrum or Wurmcoil Engine on the fly, which leads to complicating opponents. And I do see the improvement Phyrexian Revoker's/Pithing effectiveness by naming cards before they come off the stack. In the mainboard, Shimmer Myr seems more cute because it improves the sideboard and Revokers, which is good, but is it better than a fourth Repeal or second Candelabra of Tawnos?

I have been playing the deck with varying degrees of success on MTGO. I just thought I would share my list to generate new idea and share my thoughts.

Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Tabernacle
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

Creatures
1 Emrakul
1 Ulamog
4 Primeval Titan
1 Trinket Mage
1 Veteran Explorer

Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Candle
2 Expedition Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
4 Crop Rotation

Sorcercies
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Show and Tell

Sideboard
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Swan Song
2 Elephant Grass
2 Moment's Peace
3 Chill
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void

Things I like:

I have really enjoyed the small Green Sun's Zenith Package:

* turn one for Dryad Arbor for ramp... Dryad Arbor is also good against Liliana, a few times I have also utilized him to kill an un-expecting storm deck at 1 after a rubbish Ad nauseam

* Veteran explorer for Tarmogoyf decks. That card has single handedly stopped people from attacking for 2-3 turn while they were presumably trying to assemble an alpha strike. Because of the explorer I have decided to switch to tabernacle main so I can find a way to kill him myself.

* the Obvious benefit of Titan with only a single green and and additional titans

* GSZ makes it harder to figure out what to name with Meddling Mages as well.

I have also really enjoyed the trinket mage package. Specifically Engineered Explosives.

Things I actively dislike...

*No Cavern of Souls Main--Even though I have 3 ways to get Titan into play I would like hard casting him (or sometimes Trinket Mage) to be easier
*Only 1 Pithing Needle Main Lilliana has still been a beating
*Only 4 Great show and tell able creatures (thoughts on Hornet Queen or as rock lee suggests Wurm Coil)


*Elephant Grass has been awkward in the sideboard
*Moment's Peace has been as well

Any comments criticism and/or suggestions are always welcome

I took the "pretty much Stock" list to the SCG NJ open yesterday based off of IntoPlays tournament report. I figured with a virtually unknown metagame, I wanted to go with the most generic lists possible.

Typically, I'm playing in a delver, miracle and land infested metagame; NJ seemed to be the exact opposite! I played against 0 delvers and counterbalances all day personally!

Some general observations:
- 1st off, there was TONS of infect. At one point, it looked like one of every three matches was infect.
- It was a smaller turnout than normal, I think there was around 250ish people.

My brief tournament report:
Round 1, my opponent said "I just woke up 10 minutes ago" and was literally half asleep during game 1. Guess what he was playing...BURN. I resolved primetime, gained +8 life, it got double bolted and still died. Game 2 I had to Hydroblast the 2nd Edilion. I then died to a price of progress. That's proof that you don't even have to be awake to win with burn. Le sigh!
Round 2, Bulldoze Jund.
Round 3, ...at five life against Elves, punt game 2. Le sigh^2.
Round 4, Bulldoze Reanimator.
Round 5, Omnitell... Le Sigh ^3
Round 6, Bulldoze Pox.
Round 7, Mono-Red Sneakattack. I survive the bloodmoons, but this is a hard matchup. I need sneak attack and die to pyromancy. Le sigh^4.
Round 8, Infect. Die turn 2 game 1, get slow rolled in game 2. Le sigh^5

So there's a snapshot of the potential GP NJ metagame. Ughh. The other turbo eldrazi players at the event I believe had similar experiences! :-(

I also played in SCG NJ with the same list I posted earlier but I put in 2 Obstinate Baloth in the side in place of Revoker and Relic expecting BUG and Liliana decks.

R1 beat Dredge 2-1
R2 lose to burn 0-2
R3 lose to burn again 1-2
R4 beat elves 2-0
R5 beat miracles 2-0
R6 lose to infect 1-2
R7 lose to death and taxes (aven mindcensor is a huge beating) 0-2
R8 lose to burn yet again drop. 0-2

0- delver, 1 deathrite deck, If that was the expected meta I should have played Reanimator.

How are you beating burn?
Without an early Show and Tell and a counter for their Price of Progress or Sulfuric Vortex I'm finding it nearly impossible to win otherwise. Blue blasts help but you must counter Price of Progress. I was trying out Wurmcoil Engines online but they sort of need a Show and Tell as 6 is a bit to slow. Friend who plays 10 post switched to Infect cause he got tired of losing to burn.

Infect is a pretty bad match up too but Chain of Vapor or Vapor Snag sounds like they would be pretty good versus Infect.

Death and Taxes, I'm finding to be pretty tough with their key card is Aven Mindcensor. shuts you down and can be a huge blow out and Repealing it when it has flash doesn't do much. Revoker on Top doesn't help any either.

@MaCHOOga
Was cool to meet you at the event and compare notes. I think your Mono Red Sneak opponent is my friend who plays at the same shop I do. He runs Pyromancy sideboard.