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lulz at Fire // Ice is better than Vindicate. Have you people learned nothing from how much Fire // Ice sucked in Landstill compared to the UW builds back in the land of way back when? And how removal doesnt keep Goblins at bay, it's keeping SCG and Ringleader off the table? How Vindicate actually destroys lands and Counterbalance?
Burning Wish is an interesting concept though. Although, one of the advantages to Cunning Wish in addition to being an instant is that it's casting cost is 3.
If you run Burning Wish, you can run REB. REB > Format.
It shouldn't matter how much removal I don't have for Tarmogoyf. What should matter to you is how much a I do. You obviously don't understand this and continue to argue on. Fire/Ice is a great card. It provides a great tempo boost to get the deck into the late game. Saying it is horrible because it can't handle Tarmogoyf (which it can fog) is such a bad way to view a card. Using your method, Smother would be a horrible choice because the Tombstalker would ruin your day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taishaku
You are relying too much on the name. Do recent Landstill lists rely on Lands and Standstill as much as they once did? Why do we conitnue to call a deck Landstill when we run only 3 Mishra's Factory and 3 Standstill? Please stfu about naming.
Again, what do you have against red? I am not cutting white removal for it (except Vindiate). What is Flamespout? Do you mean Firespout? Well if you are saying I would Tutor for that with Wish, you are wrong. Wrath of God is also conveniently a Sorcery also. To go along with the 11 counters I run (4 Force, 4 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell) I have 4 Swords, 4 Fire/Ice, 3 EE, 2 Wrath, 1 Nev's Disk, and the 3 Burning Wish. I do not lack answers to Tarmogoyf so saying that my list will get into trouble more than a black splash build is wrong.
I don't get how now you are calling Fire/Ice a good card. I do think the two cards and SB Pyroblast are worth running right now.
You were talking about SBing out Burning Wish. I asked why I would do this. I wasn't comparing Instant speed to Sorcery speed, but you don't SB out Cunning Wish games 2 and 3, do you?
Anyway, you go back and forth a lot. Saying how instant speed is soooooo much better because you can keep your options open, and then telling me to run Vindicate? Why don't we run Rout over Wrath?
@Citrus
It is a new format. Tribal decks have sprung up everywhere and being able to two for one their mana elves, or get rid of an Adept and Cursecatcher, or just taking down a lord. Fire/Ice is pretty strong.
Those aren't the only concerns. Mana screwing could help, but only if they have an empty board (ie no Warchief, Lackey, Vial, and no real threat or swarm). You have to get there. Fire/Ice helps my build get me into the later parts of the game so I can Burning Wish for Firespout and just wipe their board. If necessary, I could Ice their land like you would Vindicate it for the tempo boost.
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Swords
4 Fire/Ice
3 EE
2 Wrath of God
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Burning Wish
SB
1 Wrath
1 Firespout
1 Newer Akroma's Vengeance
1 Terashi's Grasp
1 Decree
1 Telemin Performance
1 Banefire
1 Deep Analysis
1 Tidings
4 Pyroblast
2 ???
The SB isn't final and the wishboard could probably be trimmed but I have been loving it.
@Misplayer
Simply because something is tested and found viable does not mean it is necessarily better than pre-established performers. I am sure you can indeed run UWr like in the past, but we do know from precedent that UWr has been found lacking.
You know, it's funny you say Wrath is worth it, as people have been dropping Wrath from 3-color variants. But anyway, comparing Wrath or Vindicate to Burning Wish is like comparing apples and oranges; in fact, Burning Wish would actually be more like a cabbage, since it actually does not do anything in and of itself. Holding a Burning Wish in my hand until turn five or so does not sound appealing at all to me.
I do not think splashing red for Fire/Ice and Burning Wish is a worthwhile trade for access to Vindicate, Engineered Plague, and Extirpate; or Krosan Grip AND KAROO MEERKAT OR BLOATED TOAD (Hahaha... just kidding, though they do shut down Merfolk). REB maybe, because I will agree with you and say it is an awesome card.
@Citrus-God
Well, Fire/Ice is better than Vindicate in some matchups; say when Goblins drop a Vial and 2 Lackeys on the next turn. But overall, I agree. Vindicate is the stronger card simply because of its utility. Whereas Vindicate is never a dead draw, Fire/Ice may well be.
"Have you people learned nothing from how much Fire // Ice sucked in Landstill compared to the UW builds back in the land of way back when?"
You know, I really was thinking the same thing. People talk of UWr as if it's new and untried. Back when I started playing Landstill, UWr was already deemed less consistent than UW, UWg, or UWb after Goblins stopped being the dominant aggro deck of the format.
I think the fact that it is an instant is fundamentally more important, as not every deck runs Spell Snare. (Though I guess ~50% do. xD)
@Jak.
Sure, you got four Swords. That's great. But when you're playing UG, you will quickly find out that Fire/Ice is just a single-target Fog.
I never said Fire/Ice was horrible. In fact, I distinctly said in the text you quoted that it is an "excellent" card. All I was trying to point out was that it is inferior to Swords in situations where you need to remove something bigger, Tarmogoyf being a prominent example. I would think Tarmogoyf is one of the most commonly played creatures out there these days.
You do know what "tempo" means, right? How does Fire/Ice "boost" your tempo? I think the term you want is "card advantage." Boosting your tempo means you are moving up your clock; that is, reducing the amount of turns necessary to achieve a result, such as checkmate (it is a chess term). Moving the opponent down his clock is not the same as moving up yours.
The tactic is retained by modern Landstill variants. It's simply that the initial shock has subsided and people now know not to let the tactic persist. And I still run a 4/4 mix.
I have nothing against red. Indeed, I am very fond of red; my very first deck, a Goblin deck I made in second grade, was red.
Hahaha, my bad, Firespout. I was thinking Flamebreak, which was used in another red deck during Mirrodin Standard.
You would get in more trouble. Having only 4 cards that can deal with Tarmogoyf when it hits the board within the first four turns is risky. Remember that Spell Snare is no guarantee with Vexing Shusher running around in Zoo decks.
You need to remove the idea that every good card is viable in a given deck that has those colors. I never said Fire/Ice was bad, just that it was not as good as alternative forms of removal.
Cunning Wish can stay because it is an Instant. Must I really explain how much different a sorcery is from an instant?
Vindicate is a Swiss Army Knife. I never said you cannot run sorceries whatsoever. I am simply stating that Burning Wish does not work because it is a sorcery that looks for another sorcery.
I'd play that Rockout. 2 thumbs up.
As for me im still attempting to cut down to 61.
Then don't run fire/ice. I know I am not. I think it still sucks.
I'm still skeptical, but I'm not you, so I definitely wont argue with you about the validity of Fire // Ice since I'm mainly interested in Burning Wishes and REBs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Fire // Ice is more likely to get you into the later parts of the game because it's a removal spell, not because Ice let's you steal Turn 2s, because in the long run removal is bound to be more redundant than tapping something down with Ice.Quote:
Those aren't the only concerns. Mana screwing could help, but only if they have an empty board (ie no Warchief, Lackey, Vial, and no real threat or swarm). You have to get there. Fire/Ice helps my build get me into the later parts of the game so I can Burning Wish for Firespout and just wipe their board. If necessary, I could Ice their land like you would Vindicate it for the tempo boost.
If Burning Wish is a win condition in addition to being utility, why aren't you running 4? Also, the Burning Wish needs Meltdown. Balancing Act would be interesting to test though. Also, Call the Skybreaker is an amazing win condition against control. Bribery should be ran over Telemin Performance.Quote:
3 Burning Wish
SB
1 Wrath
1 Firespout
1 Newer Akroma's Vengeance
1 Terashi's Grasp
1 Decree
1 Telemin Performance
1 Banefire
1 Deep Analysis
1 Tidings
4 Pyroblast
2 ???
The SB isn't final and the wishboard could probably be trimmed but I have been loving it.
To be honest, whatever Lackeys connect, you should only ever really be worried if they drop an SCG. As long as you're alive, you're still in the game. What I'm afraid of is AEther Vial and it's power to make mana in addition to making creatures uncounterable. That's absurdly powerful if you ask me and should be the reason why I would lose to Goblins. I lose games to AEther Vial, not Goblin Lackey. If anything, Vindicate destroys AEther Vials, which Fire // Ice does not do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taishaku
Back then, the concept of Landstill is to have card draw, lands and redundancy. It was basically monoblue control with removal instead of extra counters. Back then, it also ran FoF, which made sense back then due to said redundancy. So basically, Fire // Ice was just there to destroy Fanatics, Matrons, Lackeys, BoP and Mana elves. Also, back then, the only big creatures at the time were FtKs and Ravenous Baloths.Quote:
"Have you people learned nothing from how much Fire // Ice sucked in Landstill compared to the UW builds back in the land of way back when?"
You know, I really was thinking the same thing. People talk of UWr as if it's new and untried. Back when I started playing Landstill, UWr was already deemed less consistent than UW, UWg, or UWb after Goblins stopped being the dominant aggro deck of the format.
I won't say Fire/Ice is the most amazing card because most of the time, it doesn't hit amazing things. It does, however, let me get to my other amazing cards by hitting Birds or Noble Hierarch, take down a Dark Confidant, hit multiple Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. It does it's work well and gives me a cheap answer to the cheap threats that run around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Yes, I was talking about using it as a removal spell.Quote:
Fire // Ice is more likely to get you into the later parts of the game because it's a removal spell, not because Ice let's you steal Turn 2s, because in the long run removal is bound to be more redundant than tapping something down with Ice.
Because it is still slow. I don't need to draw it early. I like your ideas, but Telemin Performance decks the person if they don't have a creature. Landstill and combo become wins if it resolves. Bribery could be better all around though.Quote:
If Burning Wish is a win condition in addition to being utility, why aren't you running 4? Also, the Burning Wish needs Meltdown. Balancing Act would be interesting to test though. Also, Call the Skybreaker is an amazing win condition against control. Bribery should be ran over Telemin Performance.
I agree with this. It at least stalls and allows you to dig for an EE or Disk or Wish though (ie Ice it before it gets the third counter or something).Quote:
To be honest, whatever Lackeys connect, you should only ever really be worried if they drop an SCG. As long as you're alive, you're still in the game. What I'm afraid of is AEther Vial and it's power to make mana in addition to making creatures uncounterable. That's absurdly powerful if you ask me and should be the reason why I would lose to Goblins. I lose games to AEther Vial, not Goblin Lackey. If anything, Vindicate destroys AEther Vials, which Fire // Ice does not do.
Have you thought about playing Gerrard's Wisdom as a lifegain slot? I wish there was better one-shot sorcery-speed lifegain, but meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
@Citrus-God
I agree on Aether Vial being the dangerous part of Goblin Vial. Until the Vial is removed, your principal draw engine, Standstill, is useless.
I feel today, the concept of Landstill is STILL to have card advantage, land, and redundancy. And yeah, the old decks didn't have to deal with Tempo Thresh.
@Roman Candle
Feudkiller's Verdict? Gerrard's Wisdom can be very unreliable.
Anyhow, I'm personally surprised that Overmaster is not in Jak.'s SB. Then again, I'm not even sure if you guys have even seen it used before; it was used back in the day to provide Grim Lavamancer with some fodder while making sure you could drop whatever nasty red hate spell you wanted (Boil, Flashfires, etc). I don't like Burning Wish in Landstill, but meh, it's his experiment.
Eh, possibly. But 6 mana is alot more than 4 mana in the matchups where you want lifegain. And an early Verdict often does more than 10 life, although at that point it's probably more or less redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taishaku
I've always been a big advocate of Pulse of the Fields when it comes to life-gain in U/w or U/w/x Landstill variants. And now, with the removal of mana burn, it gets even better. Can't say I'm a fan of advocating Burning Wish, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman Candle
That is, of course, if you seek life gain in the obvious bad match up.
They are talking about a tutorable life gainer that is a sorcery so that you could grab it with Wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
The debate was for the Burning Wish sideboard though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
EDIT: Ninja'd.
I just mentioned not advocating Burning Wish in the previous post; you beat me to the edit. I was insinuating maintaining a board with classic options such as Pulse so you don't have to run a makeshift board tailored around Wish.
Landstill lists that tend to run Cunning Wish can enjoy the fruits of labor by being able to find an answer at the end of an opponent's turn. This inherently frees potentially critical mana open for your main phase to play key spells. Burning Wish, on the other hand, requires you to cast at least two spells in a single main phase; potentially leaving you shut out for counter magic and an even worse problem the following turn.
I'm not saying Burning Wish is a weaker choice; I'm simply stating if you have the available mana and don't mind using resources to play your spells, then go right ahead. It might be your best bet.
My post a page earlier discussed a possible UWr with Fire//Ice and Braid of Fire as a 1-copy. The deal with UWr is that it gives you REB and Firespout, which are huge additions, but last week, I played in a tourney and have begun to think again about UWr v.s. UWb and here's what I found (refer to report a page earlier).
UWr is amazing against blue and swarm aggro than UWb. No doubt. But UWb is much more amazing against the weaker matchups. It still has a great aggro matchup (Landstill trumps aggro maybe except Merfolks) although the Merfolk matchup could benefit from REB as in UWr. But UWb Wish builds with 2 Extirpate is HUGE. I've won 2/3 games of testing game 1 against dredge. FOWed a PImp, Waste a land, he dropped another land and PImp and got going until I stalled off into Wish->Extirpate removing Ichorids and set EE@0 for bridges. Without Extirpate, many games simply could not have been won. And Extirpate is also key against the mirror, as you take out their factories/standstill, and in my testing against Dreadstill, take out their Goyf/Stifle so they're only left with 1 threat that is only trickbinable, saving all your 10+ removals against their possibly 2 threats. UWr does not benefit from the flexibility that black offers. Extirpate in Wish-build is really critical.
If I were to play UWr, I prefer to play with Cunning Wish even though Burning Wish has much more attractive options, but here's the deal, I mostly find myself wishing for Pulse and Return to Dust and Extirpate, so any of the sorceries would not benefit that much. Name me a recurrable sorcery that gains life as Pulse, not to mention Pulse gets incredibly broken post m10, putting this deck on another level fit to compete against the power creep of tribal decks. Merfolks can counter it, but any other tribal deck without counterspells loses to Pulse unless they bolt themselves. Even if you find a sorcery replacement for Pulse, it's not going to work, because if you've played Pulse, the instant speed matters in response to a lethal damage or if you're saving mana to counterspell and play Pulse if they don't play anything critical.
I suggest cutting Burning Wish if you do run UWr. Cunning Wish is so much better. Burning Wish falls under all these hate:
- BEB/Hydroblast
- Spell Snare
- Counterbalance, while Cunning Wish is much more resilient and the draw-go approach gives you more option. I think UWr with Cunning Wish is entirely possible, giving you to options such as Starstorm, Urza's Rage, Stroke of Genius, which I suggested using in synergy with Braid of Fire's insane mana to get card advantage. It's a win-more strategy though.
Although I have been trying to include a "Burning Wish" for flexibility of grabbing sorceries in the deck. However, this "Burning Wish" that I found was in fact Mystical Tutor, a one-off in the deck. It has not been a dead card the times I drew it. It won me 2 games against burn as I Mtutored for Wish into Pulse while countering the critical burns (PoP/Fireblasts). I won an unfavorable matchup otherwise. It also grabbed me a crucial Wrath against swarm aggro, and can always tutor up Vindicates/Decree and if you have nothing better, EOTFOFYL. It's been impressive, not to mention in my weaker matchups, I board in one of the two sideboarded cards (e.g. one of the 2 Extirpates in my board), therefore giving me a total of 4 ways to access the spell via MTutor, 1 Extirpate, 2 Wish. I think MTutor accomplishes more than Burning Wish would, and it fetches it at instant speed. I've played with 1 Enlightened Tutor for a long time, and I found that in the version I play now, it's speedier and ETutor does nothing but grabs EE/Humility, while MTutor has a much more diverse choice to fetch for (removal in Wrath/Vindicate, win-con in Decree, Cardadvantage via Wish/FoF).
I'll be picking up my build a page back again this week, to see if my results last week correspond again in this week's tourney. Await for a report again, or I might just pick up tempo thresh.
@Roman Candle, Hollywood, crz87, Jak.
I agree with Hollywood and crz87. Cunning Wish has huge advantages in its instant speed. Also, in this particular context, Pulse of the Fields is clearly better than any sorcery-based life gain spell.
But anyway... Gerrard's Wisdom is probably your best bet if you don't want the Feudkiller's Verdict. OR INVINCIBLE HYMN!!! (Just kidding.)
@crz87
I feel UWb is superior to UWr against swarm/weenie post-SB due to Engineered Plague.
@Crz87
Cunning Wish> E. Tutor> Mystical Tutor>Intuition> Burning Wish.
If you notice its a spectrum. To the far left you have answers that have more generalized purposes to use against a variety of different board positions. To the right you have answers but they generally are in the form of narrow win coditions. So when they work, they work well; but when they do not the pilot suffers.
a. Would you rather have an inefficient answer that works all the time?
b. Or would you rather have an efficient threat thats spectrum is slightly worse?
Heres a hint: I choose A.
EP is actually not as good as it used to be. You need multiples to shut a deck down, although to be honest, my plan against Swarm aggro is no longer EP but boarding in the 2 Paths in my SB. That ups the creature-hate to:
2 Path
4 StP
3 EE
1 Humility
2 Wrath
3 Vindicate
15 hate-cards against possibly 20 creatures, not to mention counterspell and card advantage off Standstill/Brainstorm/FoF.
This is more than enough, not to mention Cunning wishing for removal/Pulse. EP can slow them down a lot, but any green-based decks would bring in grips against you, so EP is just a delay, much like humility which stalls awhile but doesn't answer the board. What landstill really need is to sustain turns 1-3 with counterspell and StP, before landing bombs and drawing off FoF, cycling decrees and win. That's been the trend for me. I feel that I lose the matchups when I miss my 3rd or 4th land drop, even for 1 turn, because it reduces my odds to drop a bomb early and put them under pressure.
If you really sat down and think about it, as I have thought about the UWr Landstill (trust me, I'm still building it, but my own version of what I would call it Tempostill, running Stifles and Mox Diamonds, post list soon when I have results), all red REALLY offers is REB. Burning Wish and Firespout are just icing on the cake, and if you convince yourself as I convinced myself, UWb is better, not because of its colors, but because the black cards in Vindicate/Extirpate make the worse matchups so much better, it's definitely more important. Red improves the control and aggro matchup, which we already have a great matchup since aggro isn't a huge problem except for Merfolks, while control MU isn't bad since we aren't affected by counterbalance and we have more card advantage.
@Mossivo: How does ETutor have a larger spectrum than MTutor? that was my point of the post. ETutor grabs EE/Standstill/Humilty therefore grabbing Removal/card advantage while MTutor grabs Counters/FoF/Vindicate/Wish/Decree, making it MUCH more flexible since it grabs Removal/card advantage/win-con/tutors. I know this is unconventional since I've been playing with 1 ETutor for ages and since lists are beginning to drop Crucible, ETutor isn't justifiable in the MD. I've made the move to use 1 MTutor and it's worked out really well (at least in lists that run Vindicates). In the wishboard it's great but I prefer MTutor in the MD at the moment. I agree I would pick A, but currently, the argument is that MTutor satisfies A more than ETutor according to your arguement.
Your lying to yourself if you think you can stop Merfolk with a shallow 15 forms of hate. It's not going to happen consistently. I've been running 11 pre plus adding 3 plague 3 path 1 shackles post board and the matchups is maybe 65-45 in my favor. Those arn't outstandsting numbers for throwing more removal to basicly play 18 removal spells to your 15. Try again.Quote:
EP is actually not as good as it used to be. You need multiples to shut a deck down, although to be honest, my plan against Swarm aggro is no longer EP but boarding in the 2 Paths in my SB. That ups the creature-hate to:
2 Path
4 StP
3 EE
1 Humility
2 Wrath
3 Vindicate
15 hate-cards against possibly 20 creatures, not to mention counterspell and card advantage off Standstill/Brainstorm/FoF.
This is more than enough, not to mention Cunning wishing for removal/Pulse.
I promise you no decks are boarding in 4x grip in from the board. Now if you want to talk about randomly getting blown from a grip, face it; it happens. Thats why you run multiples of good cards. Humility being the only exception as it doesnt get better with multiples; and you don't want to see a hand of 2x humility thus you run 1. Outside of this one instance plague is still strictly awesome. It knocks out the tribal matchups if left unanswered. It is one of the more poorly discussed cards in the thresh matchups. Quick pro Quo. Game one you see your opponent is tempo thresh, do you board in relic and or plague? Why or why not? Now read the followingQuote:
EP can slow them down a lot, but any green-based decks would bring in grips against you, so EP is just a delay, much like humility which stalls awhile but doesn't answer the board.
You bring in both for obvious reasons. The deck runs 8 creatures. If you run snare and swords that should take card of od goyf. EE and plague and force should be cenetered around goose. Also note that relic hozes them both and a plague naming either one of the with relic going off kills either one of them; oh yeah then you net a card.
Plague is fantastic as well in the ichorid matchup; closing the window they have to beat you with. While your stp and paths kill their stupid ichorids and keep them off 3 creatures, plagues naming illusion and Horror will stop their shenanigans allowing you to clean up with ee for 0. GG noobsauce.
If Landstill could reliably trust on counterspell as a proactive form of removal, stp to consistently be in your hand, for you to always draw that 1 of FOF and decree; then yes these would always be the way you want things to work.Quote:
What landstill really need is to sustain turns 1-3 with counterspell and StP, before landing bombs and drawing off FoF, cycling decrees and win. That's been the trend for me.
23 lands + 3 top + BS = $Smooth money$Quote:
I feel that I lose the matchups when I miss my 3rd or 4th land drop, even for 1 turn, because it reduces my odds to drop a bomb early and put them under pressure.
and disk "making you inevitable with ruins" and Top which currently reads:Quote:
ETutor grabs EE/Standstill/Humilty
1. I have top - You don't = I win
2. I have top + you have top= I win because im landstill
3. I don't have top + you have top= Find top within several turns or rule one applies for you.
True story...
If your running wish fof vindicate and decree in the same deck; your problems start at the Casting cost and not at the tutor slots.Quote:
therefore grabbing Removal/card advantage while MTutor grabs Counters/
FoF/Vindicate/Wish/Decree, making it MUCH more flexible since it grabs Removal/card advantage/win-con/tutors.
Also Top> FOF all day long.
This isn't true but you need to be able to handle running tutor with the correct lineup of enchantments. Right now it's difficult because the tempo decks ala tempo thresh and merfolk as well as zoo and basicly anything countertop don't allow you enough time to tutor.Quote:
I know this is unconventional since I've been playing with 1 ETutor for ages and since lists are beginning to drop Crucible, ETutor isn't justifiable in the MD.
Mystical is just not neccecary. You don't need to tutor for fof unless your dead in the water; tutoring for decree is cool, but ultimately not necessary, vindicate shouldn't be played outside of a utility spell for the next level of land still. It doesn't solve enough to be an adequate answer outside a 2 of, especially post m10.
wish tutor and cate. . . I think we should respectfully disagree and move on.Quote:
I've made the move to use 1 MTutor and it's worked out really well (at least in lists that run Vindicates). In the wishboard it's great but I prefer MTutor in the MD at the moment.
@Mossivo: Never did I say that the Merfolks matchup was favorable. I mentioned that the matchup against Zoo and Goblins were better. Read my posts before and I said we have a good aggro/tribal matchup EXCEPT Folks.
15-hate cards is enough for any usual aggro deck, if not, I must say that Legacy control is on a fail if we can't deal with aggro with 15 hate-cards, not to mention, Landstill is the deck that destroys aggro decks.
And please, be on a nicer tone, part of the reason why this thread is a pain for discussion is because you keep thinking you're right, and fail to initiate fruitful discussions. Why the "Try again" remark? I've explained it in the past few posts that the merfolk matchup is the least favorable, and here you're saying that I'm claiming I beat it like there's no tomorrow?
Against tempo thresh, I'd be amazed if you can hit your land drops as easily to reach plague. They only have 8 threats. If I were to board in, I'd go for EE@1 to kill Mongoose, and StP/Paths against Goyfs. Tempo Thresh's creatures aren't a problem to this deck. The mana denial is. I'm not sure if everyone on the Landstill threat would agree with me, but Path > EPlague against tempo thresh. Now, EPlage>Path against tribal aggro, but I mentioned earlier that Path is good enough since it's more flexible outside the non-tribal matchups and it's also wishable.
Once again, Plague is slow against Ichorid, but it has its uses. Against Ichorid, the simplier answer is to just go Relic and counter the Needles they land or blow them up at EE. Post SB is hard unless you have a dedicated SB. Landstill is tight on SB options, but its really dependent on the meta, and which matchups you really want to win against. Unless there're too many Ichorid players, you need a more dedicated SB, and EPlague is not it. Just EE, Extirpates, Relics would do with countermagic backup.
I dropped top because it was eating too much into game time. Trust me. Top >>> everything. It's a great card, but I've been trying for faster builds, and this is my most successful list in terms of speed and versatility. Think of it as a Wish/Speedstill hybrid. Trust me, I've run the Disk + Ruins synergy. It was great, but it really didn't do much except to clear the board and I've replaced Disk with FoF and have not been displeased. Vindicate solves the non-creature threats that you need.
Actually I don't tutor for FoF if I'm dying. That doesn't save you since you'll be FoFing on your turn, and won't have enough to answer your threats. Let me break down my logic as to why I switched to MTutor after being a long-time fan of ETutor:Quote:
Mystical is just not neccecary. You don't need to tutor for fof unless your dead in the water; tutoring for decree is cool, but ultimately not necessary, vindicate shouldn't be played outside of a utility spell for the next level of land still. It doesn't solve enough to be an adequate answer outside a 2 of, especially post m10.
Against aggro (assuming you're on the losing end, i.e. not winning and just tutoring stuff to win more):
-ETutor can tutor up EE, which clears a portion of the board, ETutor can tutor up Disk, which takes another turn, ETutor can tutor up Humility, which still doesn't solve the aggro problem
-MTutor can tutor up Vindicate, which clears one threat, MTutor can tutor up Wrath which kills the board, MTutor can tutor Decree which cycles for blockers or drop a bunch of angels.
Note that in such scenarios, EOT MTutor gives a ONE-turn answer to the board, as compared to ETutor. Not to mention that MTutor also has that flexibility to tutor up Wish which tutors up more stuff IF you're really that desperate, but the truth is, your sorcs/instants should be enough to deal with the problem on that turn, unless you're playing against some random janky enchantment deck that Wrath nor Vindicate does anything, for which Etutor can tutor up EE which doesn't blow up the whole board either.
Now assuming you're stabilizing
Then MTutor still does what it does by clearing the board, and ETutor can stall for a few turns. This is where ETutor shines a little where you land Humility if you're not under instant threat. And then play out Standstill/Elspeth to lock the game down. However, in such a case, MTutor can do equivalent deals by clearing the board and giving you more time or dig for a FoF which can give you much advantage for the next few turns
Assuming that you're winning
Then MTutor/ETutor are both not needed. ETutor shines since you can tutor up Standstill to lock the game, while MTutor tutors up for Wish/FoF, still giving you some advantage, or just grab that decree and save yourself some turns.
My reasons for changing the 1ETutor to 1MTutor is because I found Disk + ruins to be too slow. In fact, if you're relying on that synergy, then you're too much in a comfort zone and won't be playing the deck as well. Part of playing the deck is to be humble, and know that although you're in control, you can lose control of the game if you're overconfident. I've loved Speedstill lists but I found it to be too anti-aggro oriented. I conjured my list of a slower speedstill, hybrid with Wishstill and it's been working great. ETutor now loses some target, and I've gained much more targets with MTutor.
Also, moss, I don't know how you play Landstill but there are many times where I intentionally don't counter spells, take extra damage just to force my opponents into over-extending for a quick win and EE/Wrath their board. It's situational and dependent on the hand. When my hands are confident, I'll save the spells for critical uses. E.g. why counter a goyf when you have an StP and can keep mana open for the next threat? Save that counter against other threats (assuming you know the other deck well). Landstill isn't a stupid Type 2 deck where you counter and answer all threats one for one. You need to let some through, and blow them up when they hit the board, and try to reset the board and hand in your favor. At least, that's the beauty I find with this deck: Hitting the 4th land drop.
I would probably add Top back in the list, playing 2 Tops, 3 BS since Top is far too good to not be included. I'm trying out my previous list though. But 2Tops 3 BS would be my more optimized list, as it has been before. For reference again, here's my list that I got 1st/2nd split last weekend:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...postcount=2255
Look I don't have to tell you that Merfolk is the current Tribe to beat. Zoo, although relivent looses and wins based on it's board position and not it's cards "This is regarding wish builds as wish to pulse ends the game with a clear board."Quote:
@Mossivo: Never did I say that the Merfolks matchup was favorable. I mentioned that the matchup against Zoo and Goblins were better. Read my posts before and I said we have a good aggro/tribal matchup EXCEPT Folks.
Goblins is irrelivent right now. The matchups already solid and I can't name a time when I fealt more comfortable with them other then when I played 4c with himility and wish splash. These matchups are solved with Path to exile as you mentioned.
Merfolk is a deck you NEED to be beating or you probobly shouldn't play said model of landstill because your almost gaurenteed to be facing it atleast once at the bottom or top tables, and as it's doing really well I would assume the top ones. Your not going to dodge it as frequently as say ant.
There is no such thing as a "Usual aggro deck." You also know this.Quote:
15-hate cards is enough for any usual aggro deck, if not, I must say that Legacy control is on a fail if we can't deal with aggro with 15 hate-cards, not to mention, Landstill is the deck that destroys aggro decks.
There are simply far too many flavor's to establish an average creature count that your going to run into.
Also removal isn't "hate cards." Path to exile is a generalized removal spell that happens to be fantastic. In that same instance Engineered plague is a tribal removal spell, alittle more finely tuned but it's universally good against a variety of different arch types.
Quote:
And please, be on a nicer tone, part of the reason why this thread is a pain for discussion is because you keep thinking you're right, and fail to initiate fruitful discussions.
I didn't say that. What I meant if you misunderstould is what I said at the top of this post as well. It's the most important. I wouldn't play landstill if I couldn't beat it because it is such a beating without he proper technology. You have to be able to beat either Ant or Merfolk with some consistency. If you can't then it's not worth losing to both because your going to run into them even in small local sized events.Quote:
Why the "Try again" remark? I've explained it in the past few posts that the merfolk matchup is the least favorable, and here you're saying that I'm claiming I beat it like there's no tomorrow?
Top does marvelous things.Quote:
Against tempo thresh, I'd be amazed if you can hit your land drops as easily to reach plague.
Plague isn't slow against ichorid. You can stall Ichorid consistently enough to prevent them from auto winning. Past that point it's your card selection that will win you said game. Plague just happens to soft lock ichorid when combined with a second one or humility.Quote:
Once again, Plague is slow against Ichorid, but it has its uses.
You can't rely on relic to save you against ichorid. Thats what ichorid preys on. You need to take advantage of the obvious. They Mull themselves... Alot. You need to design your gameplan around winning the whole game instead of thinking "Did I get this, or that." If you think that way then ichorid autowins you based on needle your anser and then win 2 turns later.Quote:
Against Ichorid, the simplier answer is to just go Relic and counter the Needles they land or blow them up at EE.
Post SB is hard unless you have a dedicated SB. Landstill is tight on SB options, but its really dependent on the meta, and which matchups you really want to win against. Unless there're too many Ichorid players, you need a more dedicated SB, and EPlague is not it. Just EE, Extirpates, Relics would do with countermagic backup.
you can tell me how plague is slow, and how it isn't it; but you can't tell me how it's actually bad. Obviously life would be easier if we could all run 4 ofs of ee pate and relic with infinate force of will backup;however this is not the case. Your argument needs to be tuned around why EP doesn't work, or around a more effective solution for those three slots. Until then your just crying about a matchup you haven't tested enough or you simply just can't beat it with your current landstill model.
You dropped top in favor of wish + FOF + Vindicate. This slows you down not time line wise, but interactive-wise. Your slowing your overall deck down.Quote:
I dropped top because it was eating too much into game time. Trust me. Top >>> everything. It's a great card, but I've been trying for faster builds, and this is my most successful list in terms of speed and versatility.
Let me tell you alittle story:A long long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.
Nevermind with that.
I played landstill in GP Chicago. For referance check out the tourney report. Now I did well but I had alot of draws. Though this wasn't do to top being slow, but card quality being not optimal. It happens alot in landstill. I was using ponder (wasn't necessary in landstill. Simply put the wrong choice.) I was using an incorrect sideboard as well which didn't help things AT all. I should have used path to exile (would have won me multiple games much easier) I also didn't have enough fetches. 4 is simply not enough and 22 lands wasn't correct either. With all of these small issues my model had still managed to get me just inches from day 2.
Also note that it was my first Major "over 200" event with Legacy and the speed of the game was never an issue with opponents or myself. Top was not the problem, my card quality was the problem. So if your finding that Top is dragging you down, then play the deck more. Function with the interactions and write your damn top 3 down or something. I happen to have an excellent memory. I generally can remember three cards when I see them.
Disk + Ruins is cute; but disk + elspeth is incredible. I beat merfolk preboard last night with that little ditty. Fun times.Quote:
Think of it as a Wish/Speedstill hybrid. Trust me, I've run the Disk + Ruins synergy. It was great, but it really didn't do much except to clear the board and I've replaced Disk with FoF and have not been displeased.
Wish does everything vindicate can do, but better for 1-2 mana as you've already found out. Theres no reason to use vindicate unless you have a utility slot. I happen to use relic in my 1 of. This could easily be replaced by wish. You simply don't want more then 2 wish in your landstill model unless your wish dependant.Quote:
Vindicate solves the non-creature threats that you need.
Ill answer the other stuff later. I dont really have the time to talk about it. But to simplfy it.
I wouldn't run either tutor main currently. I really like the flexibility of e tutor in the sideboard.
Glad to see you resolved in favour of the 3 EE + 1 disk argument! (aboslutely rocks...). (And BTW, sorry if I didn't reply to your PM, but the work absorbed me completely, I've got just a few minutes to write this post). Finished 6th a small tournament (23-25 people, didn't count...), but I could have done better. I tried the speedstill approach:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [ALA] Swamp (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
// Creatures
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [A] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
Round1: DStompy
G1: I kept a slow hand and forced a t1 chalice@1 which I could have let resolve (having force backup and elspeth). He plays a morphed creature and I didn't find one of my 7 swords. I didn't care because I thought it was gathan riders: turn out it was his singleton copy of red akroma...
Side: -1 snare -1 standstill +1 EE +1 KFinks
G2: The deck worked as it must. I let a RPD and a mauler resolve, kill the dragon and kept the board with elspeth. Finks + mishra finished him off while I wiped away his creatures.
G3: notes say he concedes at 16 and me 18. Must have been in a far superior board position.
1-0
Round2: my teammate with burn
I lost g1 due to burn being burn. I opened godhands the other games, and 2 finks + elspeth won me the race.
Side: -2EE -3 vindicate -1 path + 4 sculler +1 jace +1Kfinks
Round4: UGr dreadstill
Not a difficult MU, 7 MD swords help a lot... Top won me the match all day long.
Round5-6: ID
Top8: won the first and mulled hard and seen nothing, my only 2 fetches incurred in stifle. Losing can happen, but not even playing is annoying.
The deck was overall pretty consistent, I mulled only once in the swiss, and hard in the top against my nemesis (when I play with him, I mull no matter what I'm playing; once he beat me with belcher, I mulled to 4-5 every game, seems like he casts a curse on my draws...nevermind...). The only thing I "complain" is that I didn't side so many cards, the deck seems quite balanced as it is. Kitchen finks is a solid card, and most of all totally unexpected. A good body for an attacker, gains us 2-6 life (with a stp), prevents the oppo from attacking quite often, etc. The only complain is that it can't produce soldier tokens in eot! :tongue: I chose to insert 2 counterspell, I prefer having at least 10 counters. (-1 sstill -1 vindicate in regards of kalus' list). instead of 4 relics / 2 jace I preferred adding more versatility with a +1 cruclibe and a +1 EE. Still to test it intensively, but quite in my playstyle.
@mossivo1986
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of tutors. I agree with your assessment on Engineered Plague as well. It stops Ichorid cold and unless they splash white for Vindicate, it's really tough to remove.
I run 3 Krosan Grips from the SB. I can add in one more just to contradict your promise. ^^
And yeah, Goblins are sort of easy prepared for simply by preparing for Zoo.
I personally don't think you would need 3 Sensei's Divining Top AND 3 Brainstorm. I mean, the former sort of eliminates the need for the other beyond 1cc. Also, isn't the amount of card quality over card advantage draw spells that you have a bit unwieldy? Why not 6 of Standstill or Jace Beleran or Fact or Fiction, 5 of Brainstorm or Sensei's Divining Top? You can cut the odd Relic of Progenitus for that 6th card advantage draw spell. (Can you even dig through your deck fast enough to find it in a pinch?)
@crz87
To be honest, Vindicate can be a tough sell against Merfolk, since it leaves you open to an unfriendly Standstill.
Anyhow, this is my maindeck mix:
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
3 Wrath of God
But the key is to try to get the Humility down. I might even put a third one in the SB.
Anyhow, how is Engineered Plague too slow for Ichorid? It's not as if they kill you on turn three. And why would we be using Engineered Plague against Tempo Threshold? Oo"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Very similar to mine which is nice to see, although I don't use Crucible (maybe I should? I'm still using the Shackles). I'm still using 4 SS though and am quite surprised you went down to 3. Was it just not versatile enough?
Just out of curiosity, why isn't anyone running wing shards in the board as a wish target? I haven't tested it enough to call it definitively "good" or "bad" (it takes forever to test out a wish board slot, as I'm sure you guys know) but it's come in handy a few times. I've used it to get rid of a progenitus through force backup a couple times and even just wishing for it and holding it in your hand can buy you a few turns against aggro-control. Right now I have it in Mossivo's relic slot (and a second humility in place of the crucible, but the other 13 are identical.)
@Mossivo: 61 cards with 23 lands? I always look at my 24th (west) as more of a tutor/utility card than a land drop save for in emergencies. And is disk really worth it as a 1-of*?
*yes, cunning wish=>e.tutor=>disk. but thats hella clunky
West is great unless it has to be one of your first few land drops. What are the chances? I don't know, but regardless, it's unideal. I replaced Dust Bowl/Tolaria West with 2x Wasteland in my list...Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
I do like the idea of Wing Shards, actually, and is one of the cards that I just have laying in a box somewhere. I'm also curious about the Disk.
[Edit] Oh, and I should add.
I've been really, really considering reverting (I think that's the right word given the conditions) from 3x SDT ---> 1x Brainstorm/2x FoF. Something is just not working right for me.
Lol Morbid. i've been doing the same too. Depending on the meta, SDT maybe too slow. But man is it good and made for landstill. I'm currently running:
3 Brainstorm
2 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Jace
1 FoF
Might drop a Standstill for the 2nd Jace if Vialdecks are common tomorrow. SDT really shines against Land-D decks, and also decks with moon-effects, and it's good for a longer-mid-range game e.g. against Deadguy/Suicide. It's not too good against fast aggro since you're tight on your mana and need to find answers fast.
SDT + Jace is pretty retarded though. So if you run SDT, you have to find a spot for Jace to make it work even better :)
Yeah, I understand. That's one thing I really, really like about SDT when I came back to this game, I knew they were around when I ran UW Landstill circa 2005-ish, but didn't bother to run them. Adding 3 has freed up some of the constraints in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
Gah, basically just means more testing, which I'm not really opposed to.
The role of west in my version is a tutor or emergency land; it would be a non-land card in mossivo's list. Of course it's the last one in my deck I would choose to draw if I needed mana.
A couple of other points in my thought process that I'm not sure are right:
I look at it as dust bowl#2, ruins #2, factory#4, and mana source #23.5.
Cutting it for another business spell is possible, but I don't think running dust bowl and ruins is worthwhile at that point; they're untutorable one-ofs that work only in certain situations.
Running land#24 lets me feel more comfortable running 2 SDT and 3 brainstorm, upping standstill to 4. That gives me a nice even split between card quality and card advantage, as well as 20 blue cards to pitch to FOW.
Against this train of thought
In testing, I've only played it as a land a few times. Would it be better as a business spell with dust bowl cut for ruins#2? That's what it turns into most of the time.
Mossivo's build gets two more slots than mine. This ends up being quite the advantage, though even if I cut it I'll probably still just run 60 total.
Sorry, just kinda thinking out loud right now. I've been on the fence with this choice for so long because there are a few other slots contingent on its inclusion or exclusion.
Tolaria west is an excellent card. Don't get me wrong if the format were a bit slower i'd probobly re-add it. Unfortunately it cost's six mana to ee for 1 and this is the main selling point for not running it. I'd rather run a more efficient land and preserve my landbase then worry about some random tutor that doubles as half a land drop. Consistency is the key here and really I still see academy ruin's constantly and dust bowl enough to warrant not playing it.
The random relic follows suit as the last two did. The biggest difference between the old list and the new list is that i'm sacrificing some of the extremely efficient meta-planning answers to answer the entire legacy format ie running mid-late game answers like counterspell and disk. Disk isn't the usual cunning wish target fyi. Disk is your random if you don't kill me next turn i'm resetting everything with x ammount of lands and a solid hand in play. So watch out card obviously. Disk shines with EE and elspeth creating gamestates that feel like your cheating.
Disk+Elspeth's Final = disk EVERY turn + Indestructable infinate 1/1 soldiers that make the game end very quickly. Also to note standstill over a disk with elspeth in play reads: Your dying anyways, but if you want to give me the for sure go ahead win please play a spell. Elspeths final also allows humility to become indestrcutable and top so if you randomly use disk nothing on your side gets taken away from you.
It is with all this and that disk has allowed me to regain what was lost in the merfolk matchup pre-board that I tell you that Geoff,Gustha,Rockout are all correct with their assesments. Disk is not only retarded but the next removal of choice. Disk to me feels like when you play ITF and they use Etched oracle with ruin's (Except more unfair as disk has more synergy then just drawing more cards.)
I prefer indestructible Humility over Disk, however, disk has really been shining in the past month of testing. If you feel comfortable running more than one do so, otherwise 1 should be plenty.
moss, I've played Disk/ETutor + Elspeth before and honestly, it was win-more. The times where I got Disk out alone, I've reset the board and proceeded to win. Times where I got Elspeth out, either she was removed or I won in the end since there's no other decks in Legacy that can really deal with planeswalkers other than Vindicates. And if I did get Elspeth out to 8 counters, it's already a lost game for the opponent. I think from my previous testings (huge fan of disk simply because it's a board setter) that Disk + Elspeth is a little too slow. The justification for running Disk isn't to recur that cute trick because it is an amazing synergy, but the games you actually get to do that, out of all the games you play, are not too frequent. They would have an answer to Disk or Elspeth and before she hits up to 8, they would also have an answer to Disk or Elspeth.
Disk is one of those MD slots that I'm taking in/out depending on my meta. If there's a ton of affinity/Enchantress, Disk goes in! Disk destroyed a game of affinity right before he could swing in for lethal. I doubt that Elspeth + Disk trick could get online against affinity at any point since they're so fast, but Disk itself can get it there. My main point to say is that if you run Disk, run it because it's a good card against the meta, not because it has cute tricks with Elspeth. That's a bonus, but it doesn't come up too often unless your meta is slow, but that means they have time to dig for answers as well, or you should try to win faster.
Here's the list I'm playing today, report will follow soon:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Undeground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divning Top
4 Standstill (or 3 Standstill + 1 Fact or Fiction if there're too many vial decks)
1 Jace Beleren
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God (or 2 Vindicate, 2 Wrath depending on aggro meta: swarm v.s. less-threat density)
1 Humility
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
SB:
1 Pulse of the Fields (maybe 2 if meta is burn/goyf sligh heavy so MTutor grabs one in the MD as well, giving it a potential 4-copy)
2 Extirpate
1 Return to Dust
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Negate
2 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus
I said the same damn thing. Yet here I am playing it. Check a couple of pages back.
Just want to echo that Disk is cool, it's the ultimate fire & forget card
Wrath Child from Salvation hooked me up with this. Check it out:
Fira Powa
Man do I love winning with Chicks with swords.
Did he explain how to do those banners? IŽd like to have one myself but with some other cards.
Photoshop
You can get Photoshop 7.0 just about anywhere. It's probably one of the most easily cracked programs out there besides microsoft office.
I came back on Sunday, not making to the Top4 due to getting paired down and losing to Goblins game 1. I should not have lost that MU simply due to all the aggro hate cards not to mention BEBs. What happened was: All 3 games, I drew no removal, and got nothing through digging with Standstills/SDT/Brainstorm. It was frustrating as hell. Game 2 I resolved a critical Humility right before I was going to die and stabilized with Pulse and won. Game 3, I drew zero white sources (he didn't waste any Tundras either). I had 7 lands out with zero white sources after shuffling and Brainstorming, i.e. I drew 2 Factories, 2 Seas, 2 Island, 1 Ruins and my hand had 2 Wrath, 3 StPs waiting to rape his army of goblins.
It was sad losing to goblins. I beat all my other aggro matchups (Zoo, LD, RGB aggro). If you're worried about an aggro-infested meta, Landstill's the deck for you. Landstill is perhaps THE BEST deck against Zoo. It's just so nice that EE kills all but Goyfs and Thoctar and you have Spell Snares for Goyfs, and Vindicate/StP for everything else. SB 2-3 Paths and 2-3 REB and the matchup becomes laughable. Decree was MVP all day, and builds without Crucible in the MD seems better.
Here's an interesting option for people to consider in a Land-destruction heavy meta. My meta last sunday consisted of:
Goblins (Wastes/Ports)
Team America
Deadguy
BG Land-destruction deck
I made the curious decision of SBing 2 Teferi's Response. I've always loved the card and just wanted to play it for the sake of playing it. And it turns out to be simply amazing 3for1 card in a land destruction heavy meta. I would recommend not running it at all, but I wanted to mention for people having trouble stabilizing the manabase against Tempo Thresh/TA, Deadguy/Eva, Teferi's Response is a really nice card to have, and it saves you against much of the tempo loss from their land destruction. It's a card that's so specific that it doesn't make the cut at all in SB, but that's just a card I tested this weekend against a LD heavy meta and it was GOLDEN rofl. People who first saw the card were like: WTF, who plays this? This card is stupid! I got 3 for 1ed :P