Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
You are far less likely to be able to get CB your lock before your opponent does, if you've had a Jace stuck in your hand while you fight over CBs.
The issue isn't that Jace is dead in the mirror, it is that there are 11-13 cards better than Jace in our sideboards. How would you board differently to keep Jace in your deck?
My Decklist
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Blood Moon
Out: -4 STP, -2 Terminus, -1 Plains, -1 Entreat (if no mentors, -1 Terminus)
In: +4 Blasts, + 2 Wear/Tear, +1 Snapcaster, +1 Flusterstorm (if not mentors, +1 Flusterstorm)
i don't have that many cards worth bringing in though.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KZhang
My Decklist
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Blood Moon
Out: -4 STP, -2 Terminus, -1 Plains, -1 Entreat (if no mentors, -1 Terminus)
In: +4 Blasts, + 2 Wear/Tear, +1 Snapcaster, +1 Flusterstorm (if not mentors, +1 Flusterstorm)
i don't have that many cards worth bringing in though.
Well I think lots of people will advocate bringing in all 3 flusterstorms, I don't really agree with that though.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I am 4-0 online and 1-0 in paper in the mirror with this almost typical list and sideboard plan:
4 Flooded Strand
4 blue fetch
2 Mesa
2 Plains
4 Island
3 Tundra
2 Volc
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Top
4 StP
2-3 Predict
3-4 Counterbalance
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
2 Entreat
SB:
3 Red Blast
2 Surgical
2 Wear/Tear
2 Blood Moon
3 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
Sideboard plan, opting to be on the draw:
-4 StP
-2 Plains
-3-4 Terminus
+3 Red Blast
+1-2 Wear/Tear
+2 Clique
+3 Flusterstorm
I leave in 1 Terminus if my opponent has Mentor at all, otherwise I just cut like that. Two of my opponents have had Mentors and they just didn't matter when they played them. I fought over one until my opponent tapped out, then hit it with Council's once. Another time they topdecked it late when we were both late on resources, but I was able to block with Clique, then eventually entreat. I have found Council's pretty useful in the mirror, though I do understand that some people take it out.
Take these results with a grain of salt, as I have no idea who my online opponents were. However, I had never played this deck in any real games before two weeks ago.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
quadich
well i too realised that it is mostly 2 players putting up these results. Then again does that mean that overall Miracles is currently not in a good spot? On the other hand there are decent results for miracles at major tournaments like gp louisville. that what keeps me wondering whether it is just me making mistakes or the deck not being good at the moment.
The deck is very good, but not overwhelming to the degree that some people fear. During the last big legacy event weekend (Eternal Extravaganza, MKM Milan, and the MTGO Challenge), Miracles got 5 out of 24 slots in the top 8's. That is a typical showing I would think.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
The deck is very good, but not overwhelming to the degree that some people fear. During the last big legacy event weekend (Eternal Extravaganza, MKM Milan, and the MTGO Challenge), Miracles got 5 out of 24 slots in the top 8's. That is a typical showing I would think.
Hey Joe - Recently some people have said in this thread that Legends Miracles is not longer favored in the mirror match against regular/Predict Miracles.
Do you find this to be the case? Would love to hear your opinion.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FZA
Hey Joe - Recently some people have said in this thread that Legends Miracles is not longer favored in the mirror match against regular/Predict Miracles.
Do you find this to be the case? Would love to hear your opinion.
Ignoring everything besides the decklists, yes I think Legends is favored. But that doesn't get you very far. I don't think anyone knows how much a player can sway a matchup. Using miracles as the example (which could apply to any deck/format), if Legends vs Predict is 55-45 on paper (I am making this number up), and the matchup is me against a random guy in R3 of an SCG, I am probably winning the vast majority of the time. On the other hand, if it is some person who watched my stream a couple times against AnziD, then Predict probably wins consistently. So how much does the hypothetical 55-45 matter? I think not very much.
Legacy is very complicated, and player skill matters a lot. If AnziD and I played 100 times, I believe the result is only meaningful to the two of us. There is so much going on that I don't think another person could slot themselves into either side and expect to replicate the result. It could slant better or worse on either side.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
Ignoring everything besides the decklists, yes I think Legends is favored. But that doesn't get you very far. I don't think anyone knows how much a player can sway a matchup. Using miracles as the example (which could apply to any deck/format), if Legends vs Predict is 55-45 on paper (I am making this number up), and the matchup is me against a random guy in R3 of an SCG, I am probably winning the vast majority of the time. On the other hand, if it is some person who watched my stream a couple times against AnziD, then Predict probably wins consistently. So how much does the hypothetical 55-45 matter? I think not very much.
Legacy is very complicated, and player skill matters a lot. If AnziD and I played 100 times, I believe the result is only meaningful to the two of us. There is so much going on that I don't think another person could slot themselves into either side and expect to replicate the result. It could slant better or worse on either side.
I think this is a great answer, and this post addresses a question that seems to come up constantly. OP should quote this or something.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
Ignoring everything besides the decklists, yes I think Legends is favored. But that doesn't get you very far. I don't think anyone knows how much a player can sway a matchup. Using miracles as the example (which could apply to any deck/format), if Legends vs Predict is 55-45 on paper (I am making this number up), and the matchup is me against a random guy in R3 of an SCG, I am probably winning the vast majority of the time. On the other hand, if it is some person who watched my stream a couple times against AnziD, then Predict probably wins consistently. So how much does the hypothetical 55-45 matter? I think not very much.
Legacy is very complicated, and player skill matters a lot. If AnziD and I played 100 times, I believe the result is only meaningful to the two of us. There is so much going on that I don't think another person could slot themselves into either side and expect to replicate the result. It could slant better or worse on either side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
I think this is a great answer, and this post addresses a question that seems to come up constantly. OP should quote this or something.
That's nice and everything--and very true.
But that doesn't answer the real question everyone wants to know: are we going to get oarsman vs. Minniehajj at GP Vegas? Should I get Don King on this?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lordofthepit
That's nice and everything--and very true.
But that doesn't answer the real question everyone wants to know: are we going to get oarsman vs. Minniehajj at GP Vegas? Should I get Don King on this?
Fairly certain we already got the answer to this. We'll jam if he and I have the time =P
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DNSolver
I am 4-0 online and 1-0 in paper in the mirror with this almost typical list and sideboard plan:
Sideboard plan, opting to be on the draw:
-4 StP
-2 Plains
-3-4 Terminus
+3 Red Blast
+1-2 Wear/Tear
+2 Clique
+3 Flusterstorm
I leave in 1 Terminus if my opponent has Mentor at all, otherwise I just cut like that. Two of my opponents have had Mentors and they just didn't matter when they played them. I fought over one until my opponent tapped out, then hit it with Council's once. Another time they topdecked it late when we were both late on resources, but I was able to block with Clique, then eventually entreat. I have found Council's pretty useful in the mirror, though I do understand that some people take it out.
Take these results with a grain of salt, as I have no idea who my online opponents were. However, I had never played this deck in any real games before two weeks ago.
Cutting 2 plains seems a bit greedy, even if you are going lower on your average CMC. I agree that CJ is a solid card in the mirror but I think keeping it in or taking it out is down to player preference and not going to really be determined mathematically (especially since it's a 1-of). Personally, I keep it in as a catch-all answer. Plus, CB is hard to flip for 3 so that's a plus if you need to get out from under the softlock.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
Fairly certain we already got the answer to this. We'll jam if he and I have the time =P
Please please please get a camera on this! Or, can we setup a streamer challenge AnziD VS Oarsman? No ghosting... ;)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
If AnziD and I played 100 times, I believe the result is only meaningful to the two of us.
Probably so, but put me down as someone who wants to watch it anyway.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
Legacy is very complicated, and player skill matters a lot. If AnziD and I played 100 times, I believe the result is only meaningful to the two of us. There is so much going on that I don't think another person could slot themselves into either side and expect to replicate the result. It could slant better or worse on either side.
It would be entertaining and meaningful to people who care about Miracles, granted a narrow band of people. 33 Game one, 67 SB games, 8 to 10 hours, it would be a fun streamers' showdown.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
It would be entertaining and meaningful to people who care about Miracles, granted a narrow band of people. 33 Game one, 67 SB games, 8 to 10 hours, it would be a fun streamers' showdown.
Even if we boarded out the Tops, we aren't averaging six minutes a game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
something like best of 10 matches? I don't really care about Miracles but would certainly watch that
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Yeah I must admit I laughed out loud at the thought of playing more than 30 games of the mirror in 10 hours.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DNSolver
Yeah I must admit I laughed out loud at the thought of playing more than 30 games of the mirror in 10 hours.
I'd put both of those guys on the slowplay watch list then.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Let me explain:
You should playtest the way you're going to play in a tournament.
If you're going above time in playtest games, you really should reconsider your mechanics / pace of play, etc.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DNSolver
Yeah I must admit I laughed out loud at the thought of playing more than 30 games of the mirror in 10 hours.
I'm sorry, but this is balderdash. 30 games of the mirror in less than 10 hours is really really really easy.... Like, very easy to accomplish. Especially given the expertise of the pilots.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Yeah, 20 minute Miracles mirror games should not be even slightly difficult. Every now and then you'll get an insane slog-of-a-game, but most mirror games are no longer than other Legacy matchups. In fact, I'd argue that Delver mirrors very often go longer because you kill each other's creatures and don't have something like CounterTop to lock up the game by turn 3.
