[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Library is overpowered but is fragile: with krosan, qasali i don't think it will stay on the board for so long. So this is the reason for mono copy and for playing 10 cantrips instead.

Personally i don't feel the necessity of another bayou althought some lists are running 2 of them: personal POW.

Concerning Thoughtseize i think is bad running them instead of predict for these reasons:

1 - We need blue cards for FoW wich are in a number of 20 without predict and I think they are fewest.

2 - The first turn of the match i will stay open for stifle or daze or brainstorm so i will play thoughtseize at least at turn 2. In this case Tourach is a better option althought I won't chose the card to discard.

3 - Running only 2 Thoughtseize means that I will never see them in time (3,3% of probability to have them on the first hand) and in mid/late game a loss of -2 HP could be fatal.

My 2 €/cent.

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Originally Posted by Lanzorg

2 - The first turn of the match i will stay open for stifle or daze or brainstorm so i will play thoughtseize at least at turn 2. In this case Tourach is a better option althought I won't chose the card to discard..

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..that is propably the best reason for not playing it, i've heard so far. It's pretty obvious, but nice to have confirmed/ see it written.

I tested different other discard cards, but nothing trumphs hymn and i always also keep mana for stifle/daze.

I've been running a version with thoughtseize and it's treated me pretty well. The point about leaving mana open is fair, except that if you tap out turn 2 to hymn someone you're not really leaving mana open then either. Meanwhile with thoughtseize you can wait till turn 2 (not always recommended, but sometimes it is) and then do it and still leave mana open.
Still gotta test Dan's version more to see if I like it better, but I have loved thoughtseize in the deck.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35424

by the by working on a board for my meta. what exactly do the needles come in for besides vial? are we hating on crypt ect?

So has anyone figured out a successful sideboarding strategy to beat Merfolk? I honestly don't think you can play the deck in it's cuurent incarnation if you expect to face Folk more then once in an event.

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Originally Posted by Lanzorg

3 - Running only 2 Thoughtseize means that I will never see them in time (3,3% of probability to have them on the first hand) and in mid/late game a loss of -2 HP could be fatal.

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Actually the probability to have 1 or 2 Thoughseizes in your starting hand when playing 2 in your 60 cards is 22,2%. Don't know if that's enough to include it though.

I myself would play Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize in any deck which plays Snuff Out.

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Originally Posted by Irenicus

Actually the probability to have 1 or 2 Thoughseizes in your starting hand when playing 2 in your 60 cards is 22,2%. Don't know if that's enough to include it though.

I myself would play Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize in any deck which plays Snuff Out.

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If I test it will be 3. 3 seize and 3 hymns seems likes ample hand disruption for this deck. Basically froms Dans d.c. deck -1 ponder, -2 predict + 3 thoughtseize. I'm also going to test Clique. Coutertop is pretty popular here in the chi at the moment and it seems like an auto include. again from Dan's dc list -1 daze -1 stalker, + 2 clique. will post a list i am comfortable with in a coulpe weeks after some testing.

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Originally Posted by SMR0079

So has anyone figured out a successful sideboarding strategy to beat Merfolk? I honestly don't think you can play the deck in it's cuurent incarnation if you expect to face Folk more then once in an event.

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An extra explosives out of the board and replacing Stifles with a little more removal makes it a lot more winnable postboard.

My win % game 1 vs folk is pretty atrocious though.

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Originally Posted by SMR0079

So has anyone figured out a successful sideboarding strategy to beat Merfolk? I honestly don't think you can play the deck in it's cuurent incarnation if you expect to face Folk more then once in an event.

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Seeing that EE and/or Damnation can handle once you get to turn 4+, the issue is dealing with early threats.
I would suggest Ghastly Demise to start off (or any other 1 mana removal)

This is basically the whole problem, there is no good black one mana removal. I really want to test Disfigure, but I don't think it's good enough. Right now I just board out Stifles (or Force Of Will against lists splashing a colour) for the third Engineered Explosives, a Ghastly Demise, a Go For The Throat and a Pernicious Deed. It wouldn't want to run the deck in a Merfolk-heavy meta though.

I've havent had that big problems with merfolk so far, but then again it might come with time.
I believe that if your have at least 5-6 removal cards, you shouldnt worry. And since stifle often is no go against them, you can side in additional deeds, darkblast (for multi-use), and consuming vapors.

EE for 2 screws them up big time through the game, and played wisely doesnt even affect your goyfs.

So I just got done playing this deck at the local weekly here in Chicago and did pretty well going 3-1. Here is the list I played:


Spells -26
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
2x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will

Creatures -9
4x Tarmagoyf
2x Vendellion Clique
3x Tombstalker

Artifacts -2
2x Engineered Explosives

Enchantments -2
2x Sylvan Library

Lands -20
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland

Sideboard -15
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ghastly Demise
2x Null Rod
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Krosan Grip
2x Damnation
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor

Played The Rock, Enchantress, Zoo, and Belcher. The only game I dropped was to Zoo and it was pretty abysmal. I tried squeezing Thoughtseize in this deck all week during testing, but found that it really is hard to play when you are running 4 Stifle. I didn't like the cross synergies with Tombstalker and Goyf so decided to cut one Stalker for a Clique as well as a predict for a clique. The Clique was really good for me all day. It increased your clock usually by a whole turn if you also had a stalker in play. I even got to block a Dark Confidant! The Rock was pretty tough but I managed to stick an early Stalker that got there. Enchantress was a cake walk after having turn two hymn with fow back up both games. Belcher was hilarious as i easily took game one and topped decked a EE the turn after he emptied the warrens for 12. I think I could have taken the zoo match up if he didn't have triple wasteland both games, + bad moon backed up by Red balst game two :frown:

Sidebaord choices were mostly meta and were pretty on. There was a Tezz affinity list and a Mono Brown so I think the Rods were a good call. Damnation may seem odd, but it was pretty good for me in testing helping with zoo, gobos and folk. It might not be right though and deserves more testing. Hymn just seems to good to not be a four of. I'm thinking about cutting a snuffout for one, a ponder, or possibly a clique. The card on turn two is just absurd when having counter backup. Didn't play darkblast for meta game reasons which was probably a mistake. I am also seriously considering cutting the Jaces as they don't seem as relevant as they should. What decks exactly are these really good against? Would also like to fit in some pulses if possible to help with the aggro matchups while still having game against pesky artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers. Got blown out by a resolved Elspeth one game against Zoo. All in all though I'm really happy with the deck and can't wait to play it more. The shear power of this deck is really staggering. Any feedback would be much appreciated!

What do you guys think of the BUG Team America spinoffs with Dark Confidant and Terravore (GerryT) or Phyrexian Dreadnought (Higginbottom)? An improvement on Team America, different decks altogether, or bad attempts to fix something that ain't broke? Wish I had time to test them all against the field but alas, only have time to theorize..

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Originally Posted by Zamussels

What do you guys think of the BUG Team America spinoffs with Dark Confidant and Terravore (GerryT) or Phyrexian Dreadnought (Higginbottom)? An improvement on Team America, different decks altogether, or bad attempts to fix something that ain't broke? Wish I had time to test them all against the field but alas, only have time to theorize..

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I actually think it's a better deck, after having tried the Terravore idea. While Terravore is a little bulky, running Dark Confidant with JTMS to draw 3 a turn should be illegal. The only reason I don't like the Dreadnaught idea is having to get both Stifle/Naught, which isn't hard but I'd rather have another threat that doesn't rely on other cards. But that's a personal issue. I'd highly recommend trying the Confidant version, regardless of your additional threat.

I think that a lot of these decks that have been doing well in the scg opens are geared towards the expected metagame. What would a list built for an unknown metagame look like if it started with the following:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jace
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
22 lands

16 open slots for removal, disruption, blue cards for FOW, and a couple more beaters.

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Originally Posted by Zoomer3989

I actually think it's a better deck, after having tried the Terravore idea. While Terravore is a little bulky, running Dark Confidant with JTMS to draw 3 a turn should be illegal. The only reason I don't like the Dreadnaught idea is having to get both Stifle/Naught, which isn't hard but I'd rather have another threat that doesn't rely on other cards. But that's a personal issue. I'd highly recommend trying the Confidant version, regardless of your additional threat.

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It's a better deck against what? Combo? Seems to me that the original Team America is already very strong against combo and sort of weak against aggro (Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Affinity) and it seems that a version without Tombstalkers, and adding Confidant + Force of Will + 2 Jace - 2 Ponder and no Top to mitigate the additional damage, and no Engineered Explosives maindeck would be even worse against aggro. In most metagames there are quite a few people running the cheapest aggro decks and not a lot of control so I have a hard time understanding what makes the new versions superior.

Could you elaborate what you tested against and what other than drawing more cards (seems sort of a 'win more' situation to me when you have Jace and Confidant) makes the new versions better against a broad field?

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Originally Posted by Zamussels

It's a better deck against what? Combo? Seems to me that the original Team America is already very strong against combo and sort of weak against aggro (Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Affinity) and it seems that a version without Tombstalkers, and adding Confidant + Force of Will + 2 Jace - 2 Ponder and no Top to mitigate the additional damage, and no Engineered Explosives maindeck would be even worse against aggro. In most metagames there are quite a few people running the cheapest aggro decks and not a lot of control so I have a hard time understanding what makes the new versions superior.

Could you elaborate what you tested against and what other than drawing more cards (seems sort of a 'win more' situation to me when you have Jace and Confidant) makes the new versions better against a broad field?

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You don't really lose any percentage against Combo, even with the Stifles gone as you're still running Spell Snare/Pierce. The advantage is that against decks with lots of card advantage, it becomes easier to put yourself into a better position because you don't need to rely on Stifle/Hymn to screw up the opponent enough for your early Goyf to matter. Most of what I tested against with it was Control, specifically Counterbalance, Excalibur, and other Bant decks, but I will admit that it needs more testing against Aggro, though the Terravores are actually good against Goblins IMO.

The version I'm currently testing also isn't exactly the same as either version. I have 3 Terravore with 4 Goyf/4 Confidant because I don't think 2 is enough for threats. I kept the 2x EE and will use 2-3x Ghastly Demise over 2 of the Throat for 7 removal spells, through cutting the Thoughtseize/Inquisition, 1 or 2 Daze, and possibly 1 Ponder, though the last cut is the least likely.

Revealing Forces/Jaces off of Confidant does suck, I agree, but that's simply part of how the deck works. That's also why the Stiflenaught version is good and played.

Tombstalker is bad, people, please don't play it.

However, I'll continue to run it just to prove how bad a 5/5 flyer for 2 is. Don't follow me though, that way lies madness.

Hey guys, had a few questions/concerns regarding this deck ( I am pretty new to legacy). I played a GPT yesterday with a version pretty close to what Gerry used at SCG tournament a few weeks back. List was:

4 WasteLand
4 Underground
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Hymm
3 Go for the throat
1 Doom Blade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
2 Terravore
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

My sideboard was way different, and most likely bad.

3 Engineered Pague
2 Maelstrum Pulse
3 Pernacious Deed
2 Spell Pierce
1 Hurkyls Recall ( saw some afinity/ mud decks)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the loam
1 Echoing Truth

I went 4-2 overall.

Has anybody had issues with the mana in this style of deck/ would adding basics be worth it or help?

Some hands I mulled throughout the day were strictly because wasteland would blow me out, being as I couldn't fetch for a basic. I was also unsure if you are supposed to be keeping one land cantrip hands and just hoping to get there? I am not on the greedy side of players so I don't like doing that but recognize it could be wrong with 2 Ponders and 4 Brainstorms.

When I had mana to cast my spells the deck felt extremely powerful.

Any advice is appreciated thanks,

Steve

@ personalbackfire:

In regards to running basics thats of course going to be a personal choice and many players (including myself) are willing to trade mana efficiency for safety from nonbasic hate. That having been said, the arguments for not running basics in TA are exactly the same as Thresh. Firstly, you're a tempo deck. Although your particular build does not run them a majority of TA decks run Stifle. This, in addition to Wasteland, typically means a person will be more fearful to needlessly crack a fetch or overreach and and Waste a land in the hopes that it will slow you down. Secondly, you're running 3 colors without any of the benefits for alternative mana fixing other decks have such as moxen/creatures (Birds, Hierarch, etc.) so you need to assure that essentially any land you play will gurantee that you can play every card in your hand.

As for the one-land hand scenario, this is completely situational. I'm sure any player here can find arguments for or against keeping a one-land hand, and the MU will of course play a factor as well. In a deck that runs 22 lands drawing 2 of said lands in your opening shouldn't be unreasonable, so unless you have a lot of buisness in the opening hand or are confident you won't get mana screwed, it's usually best not to keep it. I've rarely found the "oh, but I have 2+ cantrips in my hand," as a valid argument for keeping an otherwise poor hand. Majority of the time you're less likely to screw yourself by simplying mulling rather than hoping to draw into the cards you need.

Forlorn Egoist