[Deck] The Rock

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sdematt

Overall, Rock doesn’t have a 140% win ratio against any deck in the format; it’s actually quite the opposite. Rock has decent matchups or at least decent chances of winning against most decks in the format. With a good sideboard, you should be able to take Rock to most metagames and do reasonably well with it.

---

From all results I have seen, 4th is highest placing I've seen this decktype, is this to say that we aim to do well but not win? What are we lacking that prevents us from winning events instead of placing consistantly well?

Also, Primer looks fabulous! Just a few notes: you mentioned Diabolic Edict, Faerie Macabre, Perish and have Kataki, War's Wage mentioned in the presented decklist and I've seen Choke in a few S/Bs as well, yet they are not suggested for any particular matchup. Though I feel Faerie Macabre is something that could be left out.
Think we can add a Sideboard selection and then list the cards considered for S/B? Maybe make a small list of deck types they'd be good against? just a thought, after all, what is our response to a Progenitus?

I mentioned in the list of sideboard cards that Choke was good against Landstill/Control matchups, but I didn't list it in the landstill matchup report, true.

I'll add Edict, Perish, Kataki etc. in the sideboard section. Added Perish and Edict, just doing Kataki.

I mean, obviously you can win, don't get me wrong. Right now, Vengevine can get us. It's very fast, and even with the cards we have available, if we don't draw them, then it doesn't work out as we might have planned. Overall though, we don't have a bad matchup against them. As well, I think we haven't seen better results because there aren't a ton of people playing it. IIRC, 1% of people in the SCG metagame play it, and for that number, we're getting a lot of Top 16 compared to how many percent that run Vengevine.

-Matt

The only matchup that really scares me these days is Fish. Based on my testing, Fish is nearly unwinnable G1 and very unfavorable G2/3. Obviously, my build is different than the standard Dark Horizons build, but I just can't seem to ever get enough removal to stabalize, and post board, Kira causes me no end of problems. The version of Fish I was testing against ran white for StP, but on a strong hand, there was just nothing I could do.

Well, looking back on the last list you posted, you only have 3 Swords and 2 Vindicate MD. EE is pretty good against them. Diabolic Edict is highly suboptimal though and Extirpate is meh. The only help from the SB you get are 2 Deeds and 2 Dueling Grounds.

MD I run 4 Swords, 4 Vindicate, and 2 Deeds. Post-board, I pick up 4 Paths and 2 more Deeds. I've never usually have a problem with Merfolk, but my setup is very different. I'll usually board Hymns and I'll either board Vindicate or Thoughtseize depending on if I'm on the play or draw. Not saying it's the best plan, but it's worked well.

Part of the results are based on how many people actually play the Rock. If there's a 50 person tournament, 15 run survival, 10 run merfolk, 10 run goblins, 10 run random stuff, and 5 people run Rock.. the numbers are against Rock being the top overall finisher. I just don't see a lot of people picking this deck up to play in my meta. Might be because if you're gonna spend money, you'd spend money on survival? Dunno.

Depending on your build, Rock isn't cheap to build, either. ~10 Duals, 8-10 Fetches, 4 Goyfs, 4 Confidants; there's some money in the deck that's not totally transferable to the rest of Legacy (ex. Blue duals are more useful as you can play more blue decks, for example).

I'd say in a 50 person tournament, you have 0-2 people playing Rock. I've playing at a few 40-60 person tournaments, and I've been the only one.

Also, to all of you reading this, I need some lists from you.

I need:
1-2 Stoneforge Mystic builds
1-2 Rock Control builds (Elspeth, Deeds, etc.)
1-2 more Aggro builds (More Pridemages, Scullers, etc.)
1-2 Midrange builds, or variations on the Brad Nelson list.

I've got the Midrange covered but could use 1-2 more and I'd like some of your guys' that you've tested and done alright with.

-Matt

I'm at 3/3/3 for Swords/Edict/Vindicate right now, with the Deeds moved back to the main. So 11 removal overall MD. So post board, you've got more removal, but I've got more G1 and it's not enough for me. Maybe I'm just playing a luckier fish player.

Here's my aggro build:

Lands (22):

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures (26):

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (12):

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (15):

3 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brianw712

Here's my aggro build:

Lands (22):

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures (26):

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (12):

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (15):

3 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog

---

Wouldn't Grounds be better than Ghostly since you have no mana disruption? How's the deck been working for you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brianw712

Here's my aggro build:

---

With that kind of build... wouldn't Aether Vial be useful?

Quote:

---

Wouldn't Grounds be better than Ghostly since you have no mana disruption? How's the deck been working for you?

---

I like Ghostly Prison a lot better than Dueling Grounds, since it doesn't prohibit me from attacking with my creatures, and so I can actually present a decent clock under Prison, which not might always be the case with Grounds. The three decks that Ghostly Prison is probably most useful against (Dredge, Goblins, GU Vengevine Survival) can all win with a Grounds on the table. Dredge can chumpblock my one attacker with their infinite zombies and fly over with Iona or something similar. Goblins can chumpblock all day, and fling each Goblin at me with Siege-Gang. GU Vengevine Survival has at least 4 Rootwallas to chumpblock with once Survival is active, while an exalted flying Vengevine deals 20 to me. With Prison, in each of these scenarios, I can send in my whole team and put pressure on the opponent to find an answer to it. With Grounds, they have tons of draw steps to find an answer/just kill you.

As for how the deck's been working for me, it's been working great. It has favorable matchups against tribal and combo, and is maybe 50/50 against Vengevine Survival, but it has a little bit of trouble with dedicated control like Landstill. I've been trying to tweak the sideboard to make this matchup better, but it's still tough.

Quote:

---

With that kind of build... wouldn't Aether Vial be useful?

---

I've tried this build with -4 Noble Hierarch -colored lands +4 Aether Vial +Wastelands, but it didn't seem to work that well. Aether Vial can't hold a Jitte, it can't ramp up to Elspeth, it doesn't give Exalted, and it's generally slower at ramping than Noble Hierarch is. Not to mention multiples are pretty bad, whereas multiple Nobles isn't that bad.

I'm also currently trying an alternate list with a bit more fat:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Doran, the Siege Tower

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
3 Vindicate
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Path
3 Mox Diamond
3 Top

8 Fetchlands
3 Bayou
4 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
3 Basic Lands (1 of each, probably)

It's pretty much the usual mid-range list, just subbing out some cards for others. No major changes, but I figure a 5/5 on turn 2, along with all the other good things we play might be worth a try.

-Matt

I've changed my list a bit since I've last posted it. Not sure if it is considered midrange or control and I don't have competitive playtesting results, just semi casual/teaching friends how to play leacy based decks. Trying to meet up w/ local Legacy players this weekend for playtesting. MA's eternal realm has downsized considerably. :( turning into a standard/draft area. I remember when this area was one of the best eternal regions, not to mention some GREAT eternal players. Will post my list later and let you decide if you want to use as an example.

@ sdmatt: i was thinking the same thing as you matt, of adding some fat/creature instead of lets say gerrards verdict, but wouldn't quasali pridemage be a better fit for the opened slots than doran?, sure i love doran and he is fat even if opponents hate our grave, but pridemage would be one of the strongest utilitys we could have

what do you think? what card would be better fit, doran because of being fat, or pridemage due to utility (and exalted)

Not sure, we have a ton of stuff to blow stuff up already, so Qasali may not be required. I love Qasali, but I think in some instances Doran is just a bit better. Qasali is only a 3/3 if he attacks alone, whereas Doran is a 5/5 essentially. I think it's a tough call here, but I'm going to try Doran out just for giggles.

Also, just to let you guys know, this thread is going to be closed tonight. A new one is going to be opened, and discussion will continue there. This thread will not be deleted however, and will remain open just for reference. The thread in general is in need of a reboot, so we'll just carry on over in the new thread. I'll be doing that later today.

Once again, thanks ladies and gents for all the wonderful conversation in this thread over the past few years, and I look forward to continuing that in the new thread :D

-Matt

Thanks for the heads up sdematt, will carry on over to the new thread. for now though: haven't we been over Doran? When I first posted my list asking for help, I got my fingers slapped for using 2x Doran b/c he was "just too slow". He's a 5/5 beater that makes your goyf slightly bigger, if at all. I slightly agree, but I'd make more deck changes if he was in. I'd add either birds (weak suggestion) or hierarch (strong suggestion) to accompany Doran.
Pridemage isn't only a 3/3 beater, but he's another utility to our large inventory. If he's not useful to us against certain matchups, Pridemage is an easy S/B card.
I'd say if Doran is added firepower, I'd add it to S/B for more aggressive deck matchups. 0/5 on T2 that can swing T3, yes please! I'd consider a new critter setup if he was added. (considering more Walls to slow other decks down. Wall of Blossoms/Omens make returns?)
Lets discuss Dorans effect if used over pridemage. What setup would we use him in?
BTW: should we make a list of differences from deck titles such as: Junk, Dark Horizons, Classic Rock, Rock Control, Rock Aggro, etc.

And thanks to you! This thread has been needing a reboot for a while now. The new list looks good, I'll give it a whirl. Ghastly Demise is some nice tech :)

We shall make those distinctions, yes. Dark Horizons is actually a mistake of SCG, so let's try not to use it a whole bunch unless we're referring to the list of Brad Nelson.

Gives me 5 mins, and the new thread will be up. This one will still be open, but I'll steer traffic away from it by posting the new link soon.

New thread, so refrain from posting here. Continue the conversation over there, just do a brief intro about what you're talking about/contesting, so people who haven't read this one are somewhat up to speed.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?19432-[Deck]-The-Rock

-Matt

The new thread is up. This one is closed.

See: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?19432-[Deck]-The-Rock