I actually think Arid Mesa will be a 4x in my manabase, because I usually want to search for a basic plains or mountain before I want to search for a basic forest.
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I actually think Arid Mesa will be a 4x in my manabase, because I usually want to search for a basic plains or mountain before I want to search for a basic forest.
So, swap out Heaths for Mesas? Meh. Six one way, half a dozen the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
4x is way too much! I don't know about you but I can honestly say that with 4x heath and 4x foothills I never get mana/ coloured screwed. The mana base I play right now is as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
In my view, this runs like a dream. At most I would consider two (2) Arid Mesa for my build. However, that being said, I could see another player running three (3). Running four (4) however is manifestly excessive.
I run ten fetches, so I'd run 4 foothills, 4 mesas, and 2 heaths.
Nevertheless, still too many Arid Mesa's.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
Why is that too many arid mesas? Do you actually have any logic for that? It's certainly better than windswept heath, and if I'm going to run 10 fetches, I'd rather be able to more reliably fetch my basic mountain. With 4 foothills, 4 heaths, and 2 mires you have 6 R fetches. With 4 mesas, 4 foothills, 2 heaths you have 8 R fetches. That, in my book, is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoughtseizer
I know the creature base for zoo is pretty tight, but is Goblin Guide worth testing? It's an unconditional 2/2 that acts as a free shock on the play. The drawback doesn't seem that harsh for Zoo, although it can help the opponent dig for solutions. There's also the ability to see what your opponent is drawing :laugh:.
If it is worth running, the question then becomes what cards would we cut for it? The zoo package of Apes, Natcls, Goyfs, Qasali's, Lavamancer(x3), KotR(x2). seems very stable. Perhaps Goblin Guide could be better than Kird Ape, since it's a better beater and allows you to play basic mountains in the early game without losing speed. Perhaps it could replace some some burn spells in a creature-heavy build.
What are your thoughts?
I really don't think Knight of the Reliquary belongs in zoo. Firstly, the three casting cost is not very attractive. Secondly, you would need to run wasteland and in an already tight and fragile mana base I don't see that being proactive. The rest seems very reasonable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by dearleader
Well just as a preliminary note I question 10 fetch lands in this deck. I think 8 is optimal and comfortable. If a mana base isn't broken don't try and fix it. However, I don't see playing 10 as being fatal, just not optimal or attracting to me with 4 stifles main deck being packed in a lot blue based decks in my metagame. That being said, with the addition of a new playable fetch land for zoo, perhaps 10 can be beneficial to zoo in the near future.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
In my view, green is a very important component for zoo right now based on the competitive metagame and dropping a first turn nacatl followed up by a second turn pridgemage or goyf is paramount to the decks early tempo and aggression. With moon effects from blood moon and Magus being problematic for zoo (especially early) I think a forest to fuel a pridemage or a grip (or teeg for that matter) is a more prudent move then getting a mountain which you will soon have an abundance of any ways. In my view, if not for anything, windswept heath is a more versatile and more needed resource then mesa's for this deck to get you out of difficult situations. I am not saying don't play mesa, I am just saying don't play 4 when you have 3 different fetch lands to choose from in addition to the much needed 1 of each basic and the duals. I think a balance of 3 each would suffice for your land base.
Yes, Goblin Guide is worth testing. There is a chance that it could replace Kird Ape.Quote:
Originally Posted by dearleader
Unless you're running a funky version of Zoo that's heavy on green, you should max out the Arid Mesas and Wooded Foothills before you touch the Windswept Heaths. And unless you're splashing for black, do not play Bloodstained Mire.
Not sure why people are questioning the inclusion of the Mesas at all.
I am not questioning the inclusion of mesa's I am questioning the quantity (namely x4) when considering the other fetches, basics and dual lands this deck runs; 2-3 should suffice.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
It is not a matter of "running heavy green" it is knowing that your splash of green is what gets you out of trouble (grip & pridemage) in a potentially really bad match. The basic forest is the key basic land for moon effects and hence for this reason heaths are needed; this evidently means you don't have enough space for 4 mesa's because this deck should only run 20-21 land max.
I concur with the Bloodstained Mire as that is an obvious given.
You dont need wastelands at all with the knight of the reliquary, Horizon Canapy thought works well with The knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoughtseizer
In order to truly abuse Knight of the Reliquary wasteland should be used. Moreover, I stand by my initial position that 3 cc is too much for what he does and for zoo decks in general. Knight is not even close to being good enough to make the cut in a tier 1 zoo deck list. What are you going to cut, Tarmogoyf or Qasali Pridemage? Indeed, both would be very bad moves. River Boa, Watchwolf and Woolly Thoctar are all better in zoo then the knights and with the exception of a metagame boa, I would not play or recommend any of those.
Pridemage replaced Watchwolf, and Thoctar isn't that good because of how color hungry he is. As for River Boa, how is that at all good? it's far outclassed by the deck's other 2-drops, and the regeneration isn't even relevant in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoughtseizer
How can you say 3cc is too much for what he does yet suggest that Thoctar (also a 3cc that doesnt do anything extra and is inherantly harder to cast) is better? Ive been running 2 Knights for a while now and I absolutely swear by them. They are almost guaranteed to be 4/4s minimum when you drop them and in one game they proved to be a clutch big beater (it was a mirror so our critters were trading/standoffing all match) that won me the round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoughtseizer
This is the list of creatures Im running now for reference:
4x Goyf
4x Nacatl
4x Pridemage
4x Watchwolf
2x Figure
2x Knight
Edit: Also, I dont run a single wasteland. Although, thats partially influenced by a basic heavy meta back home. That and I personally think its a horrible idea in this deck. Its dead early (for mana purposes), it chokes out your own tempo if you use it to blow up their lands, and it doesnt make nacatl bigger.
First off if you even bothered to actually read I clearly stated that I do not play nor recommend watchwolf or thoctar. However, I would probably play them over Knight nevertheless. Knight is 3cc and nothing in a competitive zoo deck list right now needs to be 3cc or higher. This is because there are so many better options with 1cc and 2cc cards. The following cards are all substantially better then Knight of the Reliquary in any tier 1 competitive zoo deck:Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmerz213
Tarmogoyf
Qasali Pridemage
Goblin Legionaire
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Grim Lavamancer
Now bear in mind this is in totality on a pound for pound basis. Yes, Knight maybe better then wild nacatl in terms of card power and ability. However, when you consider the casting cost of 1 vs. 3 plus two different colours to cast knight, my point emerges. Knight just doesn't make the cut in my view when the acute zoo player has more efficient and quicker options. This is not Rock or Haterator where you have birds and elves to bring it out turn 2.
No offence intended and this is strictly constructive criticism but even with knight aside, figure of destiny and especially watchwolf are very sub-par and really should not have slots in this deck anymore when you consider the much faster, stronger and efficient options of creatures I listed above. Your version of "zoo" is pretty slow considering your total lack of 1c drops. I think it is quite perplexing that your list of creatures lack all of the following pivotal 1 drop creatures: Kird Ape, grim lavamancer and/ or Hound of Konda. How do you apply efficient early pressure and establish tempo and aggression out of the gate with the line up of creatures you listed above?Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmerz213
I've been running Knight as a 2 of since right around when alara reborn came out and have been nothing short of extremely happy with him. You don't need to run Wasteland to "abuse" him; He abuses himself by being so fucking huge that nothing else on the table can stand up to him.
Here's the big thing that people don't understand about zoo in the current metagame; This deck, when built for speed, CAN goldfish on turn 4. However, you will NEVER win that quickly through the disruption other decks provide unless they were already fucked to begin with. When a deck forces your turn 1 play, dazes your turn 2, and then drops a goyf with counter backup for your swords, you're gonna realize that your deck has a lot more trouble keeping its goyfs in play than other decks in the format, and many games do come down to whoever plays more goyfs wins. Having additional creatures that can go toe to toe with goyf is exactly what you need to be able to continue on your assault. And the other big thing I think people miss is what KoTR's role is in this deck; You're not trying to curve out on 3 (Though doing so is certainly not a bad thing). I often hold Knight in my hand until I have no other spells to cast (Or I need his big body to punch through my foe's defenses/stabilize in the mirror or against other aggro), and play him turn 5-6-7, from where he can easily take over any given game. And yes, having a 3 cost threat to play is very useful against blue decks packing spell snare and CB where your 1 and 2 cost threats are easily dealt with. When you're playing against a deck like CB and they counter/swords your goyfs and answer with their own, you're going to need some way to even the tide. KoTR does exactly that.
Like, really, I shouldn't even be arguing about this, since I already know I'm right. KoTR has won me an inordinate amount of games (Seriously, it's over 50 at least in tournies at this point), and NOT having some way to back up your tarmogoyfs is just asking to be outclassed by the opponent's threats. In a format with force, daze, and swords, trying to say that you can just kill them every game before they stabilize is ignorant.
Figure of Destiny is in the same boat; He's a cheap beater who can get in for damage early, but can also be a beast when you need him to be. He certainly does have a place in the deck, though I've never liked him as a four of.
And finally, regarding arid mesa, I don't know about you, but I tend to play around wasteland a lot more than around blood moon, and I believe that mesa is better for this purpose. But really, it's not even worth arguing about because the difference is so minuscule that it's ridiculous you've chosen to take such a stand against it.
Now that that's over...
I don't like Goblin Guide better than Kird Ape in this deck, but he could be viable in a more goyfsligh-like build. GG is fast, yes, but KA is more reliable and less likely to hand your opponent the game by getting them through land clumps. If I was going to play GG I'd probably still play KA and play a list that looks something like this;
4 nacatl
4 Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Helix
3 Price of Progress
3 Flameblast
2 Path to exile
20 Land
But really, that's more of a goyfsligh deck than zoo anyway.
Some numbers from Deckcheck.
In the past year, there are zero Zoo decks running Goblin Legionnaire in the maindeck.
In the past three months, there are eight Zoo decks running a non-zero number of Knight of the Reliquary in the maindeck.
Twelve out of like fourteen RGW Zoo decks from the past three months ran some form of the following configuration:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3-4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
0-2 Woolly Thoctar
0-3 Knight of the Reliquary (only one list ran three)
0-2 Gaddock Teeg (only in two decks)
0-2 Vexing Shusher (only in one deck)
0-3 Figure of Destiny (only in one deck)
So, yes.
The optimal configuration for RGW Zoo is thus:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridmage
0-2 Woolly Thoctar
0-2 Knight of the Reliquary
I feel KotR is much better than Thoctar, but I guess it's still personal preference.
*edit* Just to clarify, the only reason I stopped counting KotR at three months was because I was way too lazy to look farther back. I cut off at 05/02/09. If you wanted to go back farther than that, I'm sure you'd find more decks that support these numbers.
*edit 2* Also, in case you wanted to look at the data yourself, simply go to deckcheck.net, and enter in the card you're interested in finding in the (Advanced) Search bar at the top of the page. Do note that it pulls all lists across all formats, so simply look at the left column to make sure you're looking at Legacy lists.
Hah hah, Skyshroud Elite... I love that guy. I wish he was still an awesome one drop :(
Well here in our meta it still seems like a good drop. Every opponent i played in the last legacy tournament played duals or other nonbasics. ttQuote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION