[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by Gunit

It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?

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Seems like there are 2 viable options in this hand against that opener. So, depending on how you enjoy playing, or what you're feeling at the time, your options are:

1) Fetch for Island if you run one, or a Dual, and ponder. If you don't have an island, I wouldn't make this play. I would simply opt for option 2, which is...

2) Play out the Trop, and try to bait the wasteland, or nail their fetch with stifle. Turn 2, play out ponder, observe, and then decide what to do from there.

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Originally Posted by GUnit

To all, some food for thought:
It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?

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Looks like the typical hand where Brainstorm would be infinitely better than the Ponder you're holding.

Forcing Nacatl is a bad play here since there are worse things than Nacatl and you have numerous other plays.

I'm not all too familiar with the different Zoo lists, but my play would depend on a guess whether they are playing Wasteland or not.
If I'd assumed they didn't I'd drop Tropical and Ponder in hopes of finding Lightning Bolt, Wasteland or Tarmogoyf.
Wasteland is good against Zoo and, combined with the Stifle already in your hand, has potential to be back breaking.
Lightning Bolt burns their creature and fills your Graveyard for the Goose in your hand, it's a card I'd be happy to see.
Tarmogoyf is a good creature against Zoo because it's bigger than most of theirs. Also it's great with a FoW in hand.

If I'd assumed they did I'd play Tropical and pass. Play the fetch turn 2 with mana to Stifle and Ponder into aforementioned cards.

I'd hold on to the fetch because of potentially drawing Brainstorm on turn 2 or Pondering into it.

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Originally Posted by GUnit

To all, some food for thought:

It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?

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Force the Nacatl pitching Stifle, Draw random card, Play Tropical followed by a Mongoose, pass the turn.

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Originally Posted by johanessen

Force the Nacatl pitching Stifle, Draw random card, Play Tropical followed by a Mongoose, pass the turn.

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Couldn't agree more. Nacatl is horrible. I have tested like 30 games or more against Zoo and Nacatl is their worst creature since it'll do atleast 6/9 damage. Especially with the Mongoose in your hand, not going to block like forever.
Turn 2 ponder into land, hopefully.

@ magiccal, looks like a fun list to play. I'm not sure about your Thoughtseize. Maybe you can try this:

-4 Thoughtseize
+1-2 Ghastly Demise
+2-3 Spell Pierce

and try to get 4 wasteland in the build.

@ kabal

The UGb list I presented can perfectly win with one land into play. My list can probably do it even better, although I only play 2 Ghastly Demise. Ghastly demise > Lightning bolt in nearly all situations except your opponent being at 3 life and having 2 creatures. Dark Confidant with 0 lands into play that sticks can even win me games.
However in nearly all situation you'll have more than 1 land into play.
I've found out that Reanimator is actually quite favorable when they put you on Red. Ghastly Demise FTW.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Thoughtseize in Black Thresh. You also need Mongoose, he's simply amazing. Also, builds with Counter/Top don't belong in this thread.

I won the small mock tourney by the way, with this maindeck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse

My sideboard wasn't very good, except for 4 Ghastly Demise. If I played this again, I'd probably put Spell Pierce into the main. Pulse saved my ass against Landstill and Stax, but would probably get the shaft as well.

On the Nacatl, yeah I'd go with Forcing it, since you don't have a Lightning Bolt in hand. If you were on the play you could Fire it, but sadly that's not an option.

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Thoughtseize in Black Thresh. You also need Mongoose, he's simply amazing. Also, builds with Counter/Top don't belong in this thread.

I won the small mock tourney by the way, with this maindeck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse

My sideboard wasn't very good, except for 4 Ghastly Demise. If I played this again, I'd probably put Spell Pierce into the main. Pulse saved my ass against Landstill and Stax, but would probably get the shaft as well.

On the Nacatl, yeah I'd go with Forcing it, since you don't have a Lightning Bolt in hand. If you were on the play you could Fire it, but sadly that's not an option.

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You should test Ghastly demise over the Maelstrom Pulse's. They're pretty good.

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Originally Posted by GUnit

To all, some food for thought:

It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?

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Option one: Force the shit out of it, and I pitch Fire/Ice. Depending on what I draw, I'll probably only drop Tropical and then pass.

Option two: Let it resolve, drop Tropical, Stifle their fetch and then Fire the cat on turn two.

I'm actually not sure what would be best.

@ BUG Thresh players (Cenarious, Adan & the bunch)

1)
Also I have been testing black splash more extensively since the printing of spell pierce. I've come to include it in the main deck in the spot of spell snare, since with 6 black removal, there's never ever any need to waste a counter on a Goyf. Well, if you'll win the next turn, but you see my point. I've talked to Tempo Bant players who reason the same way, with exalted effetcts and Swords, they can afford to play spell pierce main. It's pretty much a cath-all, since with Dark Confidant, it's even easier to disrupt the opp's manabase.

2)
Diversified removal can hardly ever be a bad thing. I play 2 smother, 2 Ghastly Demise, and 2 Putrefy.

3)
Sideboard options. The thing I miss the most is sideboard against merfolk and Ur Fae. It would be really nice with acces to a sweeper, but the best I have come up with is Infest, and sometimes the double-black is hard to achieve. Do you have other suggestions for this purpose?
Also, 4 extirpate have been golden for me since it's an all-purpose card which can come in against both combo and control. It also makes Loam matchups a laugh.

Well, having more Ghastly demise in the sideboard is never a bad idea.

At any rate, I think playing Spell Pierce is correct, because this deck has little problem dealing with Goyf.

That maindeck is obviously not something I'd play again. I'd definitely cut Spell Snare. Pulse performed very nicely though, but I am a big fan of Ghastly Demise as well.

Assuming the below sideboard and the standard CT build, what would you bring in and take out against the following :

- Rw Goblins w/ StP
- Combo Elves

Sideboard
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1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt

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Originally Posted by kabal

Assuming the below sideboard and the standard CT build, what would you bring in and take out against the following :

- Rw Goblins w/ StP
- Combo Elves

Sideboard
========
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt

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Against rw goblins

-1x ponder/daze
-1x daze

+2x pyroclasm

Depending are you on draw of play. If on play, i would keep dazes in and side out maybe -1x flex slots, depending what you have there? If you have 2x bounces i would side them out for pyroclasm.

Elves:

If they don't run fetches and sylvan messangers, i would go this way:

-4x stifle
-2x flex slots (if these are bounce)

+2x pyroclasm
+4x submerge

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Originally Posted by Atog

Against rw goblins

-1x ponder/daze
-1x daze

+2x pyroclasm

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That is interesting. You are leaving in all the Spell Snares? If they are playing StP, something tells me that they don't have too many spells in the 2CC

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Originally Posted by Atog

Elves:

If they don't run fetches and sylvan messangers, i would go this way:

-4x stifle
-2x flex slots (if these are bounce)

+2x pyroclasm
+4x submerge

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What about Wasteland, do you really need a playset still against combo Elves if you assumed they weren't running anything but Forest? Actually most combo elves decks do run fetches for "red". Not to mention, what if they bring in Relic and/or Crypt? Onto of that, they typically play the following cards which you can stifle their trigger ability.

Elvish Visionary
Regal Force
Quirion Ranger
Wirewood Symbiote
Glimpse of Nature
Grapeshot

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Originally Posted by kabal

That is interesting. You are leaving in all the Spell Snares? If they are playing StP, something tells me that they don't have too many spells in the 2CC



What about Wasteland, do you really need a playset still against combo Elves if you assumed they weren't running anything but Forest? Actually most combo elves decks do run fetches for "red". Not to mention, what if they bring in Relic and/or Crypt? Onto of that, they typically play the following cards which you can stifle their trigger ability.

Elvish Visionary
Regal Force
Quirion Ranger
Wirewood Symbiote
Glimpse of Nature
Grapeshot

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You maybe be right about goblins matchup, haven't ever played against r-w version so don't know list they are playing. I think they could bring Absolute laws in against us, and that's another target for spell snare. But i guess you can side them out if you feel that way.

You said there is targets for stifle there you are right. So submerges could be better against "tradional" list what plays natural order, +10x lords etc. But why you are even asking if you have plans already what you are going to side...?

I would want your opinion what you side in for mirror with that sb? You could side in too many cards (Rebs, submerge, spell pierce, pyroblast) there is 10 cards. Do you just side out burns and flex slots for all of that or what?

This is a little off of the subject, but has anybody tested Chain Lightning in the place of Fire/Ice in Canadian Thresh? It seems like it can kill a whole bunch more of the problematic creatures that are commonly seen in legacy. The guys above are talking about how Fire can't kill a Nacatl versus Zoo, so maybe Chain Lightning might be a better choice. I know it has a drawback of being a sorcery, but Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt make it so all of your burn spells deal 3 damage. Sounds pretty good to me. Also Chain Lightning can't be pitched to a Force, but who cares when there are 26 other blue spells in a traditional Canadian Thresh deck. What do you guys think?

the Ice portion of the card is far to useful, to cut it becase of an extra point of damage, in fact, Ice is kinda the whole reason to play Fire//Ice... Fire is just a bonus. Also, this is TT... you can easily blow a land via waste/stifle so you can fire a 2/2 nacatl, considering Zoo is lucky to get down 3 land... kinda the reason behind them only being able to afford to play two 3cc drops.

Both sides are useful, I find myself using Fire a lot. But Ice is also really good, too good to skip out on.

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I won the small mock tourney by the way, with this maindeck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse

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What's your out to Progenitus ? I suggest a split between Smother and Edicts if Progenitus is relevant in your meta (and also Ghastly Demise if Goblins is present). EDIT: Come to think of it, I suggest not playing this deck if any type of Vial-Aggro (Goblins, Merfolk) is present

Ice is a 4 damage cantrip burn spell when you're stuck in a goyf-off, and the ability to split Fire's damage is relevant frequently enough.

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Originally Posted by GUnit

Ice is a 4 damage cantrip burn spell when you're stuck in a goyf-off, and the ability to split Fire's damage is relevant frequently enough.

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And infinite other things. Fire/Ice is just to versatile to worry about the sorcery speed 1 extra damage.

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Originally Posted by TrialByFire

And infinite other things. Fire/Ice is just to versatile to worry about the sorcery speed 1 extra damage.

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Very true, both are awesome cards and I totally agree. I just feel it never hurts to suggest things that could possibly make the deck better. If it came down to it I would run Fire/Ice, but I was just curious if anybody had tested with Chain Lightnings.

Anyways one other thing that I have noticed is that a lot of the Canadian Thresh players are using Spell Pierces in their boards. If it makes so many of Thresh's matchups easier, then why not just play Spell Pierce main boarded instead of Spell Snare? That would free up the board slots and could maybe improve the deck. Also since we run so few creatures, Pierce could protect them better than a Spell Snare can. I know Spell Pierce can't counter a Goyf, which could be a problem, but maybe it could make most of the matchups in the meta a bit more solid.