Playing Counterbalance when the meta is filled w/ Merfolk and Gobos is a mistake.
You should not play any variation of this deck in that meta.
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Playing Counterbalance when the meta is filled w/ Merfolk and Gobos is a mistake.
You should not play any variation of this deck in that meta.
Yes you are right, that is why Noble Hierarch shines in NO builds , they are a manafixing non-wasteable and can't be tapped by rishada port.My point of view is that Firespout(3cc , and red can be fetchable if they have wastes and rishada , or you just pray that merfolk does not have stifle at the moment) is a way better that solving a NO(4cc and needs a green dude and 2 green mana) to get a Progenitus(or RWM against goblins) and get smashed by a horde of 2/2 or some 3/3 unblockeable merfolks.This conclusions are based on my playtesting( which I'm 35-65 against merfolks and 40-60 against Rb Goblins with NO build, while with SupremeBlue I'm 45-55 against merfolks and 40-60 against goblins) as you can see Firespout just helps if you have RWM or Goyf so you make them extend and try to counter their Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs so they can't recover so easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
About Nassif and Probasco:
I didn't test it hard so I can't say many things , but from my point of view they are too slow to fight Zoo , Merfolk and Goblins but seem excelent against other CB variants and Aggro-Control decks.
I would like to discuss about Jace , Mind The Sculptor as a MD or SB card in SupremeBlue lists , it seems very powerfull in the mirror and has a 4cc to fight NO and other relevant spells.
I have been playing Supreme Blue for only a week, but I find that any decks that run wastelands seem to demolish me. My list runs 1 basic plains, island, and forest. If someone could post a supreme blue list, or tell me what is not normal in my list it would be greatly appreciated.
1 island
1 forest
1 plains
2 volcanic island
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
4 rhox war monk
4 goyf
2 trygon predator
3 firespout
4 stp
4 CB
4 Top
4 daze
4 Fow
3 Ponder
1 echoing truth
4 brainstorm
Sb
1 firespout
3 ravenous trap
3 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
2 wrath of god
I took this list from deckcheck, but from listening to the discussion on the difference between the deck types i think that this list is not a normal supreme blue.
I would take out one forest and add in another island since we have more blue spells than green. And the opponent proli doesn't have enough wastelands to waste everyone of our dual lands unless its recurring.. I would also take out 2 trygon predators and 1 echoing truth for maybe an elspeth or two. I would add in trygon unless your meta has a need for artifacts/enchantment hate. The elspeths will give the RWM and gofys the ability to fly and maybe attack directly :) Other than that your list seems pretty solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Resist_Temptation
22 Lands, minimum. Also you should know exactly which lands will be hit by Wasteland, and exactly when you will be Stifled. If you can't do that when playing around those cards, you should probably hold off trying to make your own lists, or spamming this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Resist_Temptation
Someone asked about the different matchups of Supreme Blue versus NO CounterTop. For one: Supreme Blue basically cannot lose to Zoo.
The new list after testing:
Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 trygon predator
1 wall of roots (very godo against aggro and it gives you mana and something to sec for NO, I also needed a 2-drop for cb so)
1 progenitus
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
Lands:
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 volcanic island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
SB:
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 enlightened Tutor
2 llawan/kitchen finks (llawan wins me the game against merfolk, kitchen finks is also good but also against gobblins and zoo)
1 relic of progenitus
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 firespout
1 volcanic island
2 ghostly prison
1 canonist
Oké, one extra land is really needed in this list.
If you play only 18 lands you get sometimes 2 lands and then nothing anymore so 19 lands is perfect, really.
So I want to hear what you guys would change in this list...
Wow, that is nearly on par with what I am playing.
What I did that is different is I replaced the 2nd predator with the 4th monk.
Of course the other option would be to run jotun grunt in the spot, though having another green guy that also happens to make mana is nice too.
Or if you wanted the 4th daze you could do that as well.
I just feel that the 2nd predator, albiet blue may not be the great card to have in that spot. The reasoning is that compared to the other guys that can buy you the time necessary to assembe the natural order combo, the predator easily dies, especially in the face of zoo.
Sure noble hierarch does too, but he serves his purpose when a 2nd turn monk comes on board
One of my friends even suggested a knight of the reliquary, which I could see being okay I guess, though not as good as it is in zoo.
As for my current SB I am running
3 firespout
1 volcanic island
2 krosan grip
3 submerge
3 tormod's crypt
1 karakas
2 spell pierce
okay, why 3 submerge and why the karakas?
Tell me that, oké a +4th RWM is nice but,
woudn't 2 kitchen finks be nicer.
First I played -land and -the wall of roots and 2 finks, but you really need 19 land so..
Well submerge is fantastic against zoo, and countertop mirrors as well. The karakas is obviously a nod to reanimator and is there to add variety to the other hate to bring in against it.
We actually have several people that I play with that have reanimator and its nice to have that for them.
Sure I guess you could play a finks instead, its totally what you like doing. Both guys are deterrants to attacking, though in the aggro match, I would imagine you will come ahead on life with the monk.
They do take the same amount effort to kill though, block then burn spell.
Yeah as an alternate 3 drop to predator, I could go with it.
Yesterday I played the list of Louiss Restoy @Brussels.
I've gone 3-2 with alot of bad luck.
Lost against a crappy home-made gobblin deck because of mana flut 2 games...
Then second round lost against ANT wich I needed to win but he had good luck and topdecked...
Round 3 I've played against Zoo, an easy matchup.
Round 4 the same against zoo.
Round 5 I won against ant because I didn't play bad this time.
So the list is really good, if you don't have alot of bad luck and fluts.
I would really recommand this list.
Would you happen to be referring to the list that top 8'd at madrid, the one with loaming shaman and other interesting choices.
It probably is okay, but the direction it takes is a bit too much for me to commit to.
I will explain you the fact that he doens't play qasali pridemage.
Louis Restoy also didn't played them first but he wanted some mainboard removel so he played them.
Ruben Gonzalez doesn't play them (like I do) because you almost never sacrife it.
It wins you races but like I sayd, think of it how many times you sac it...
Like one time a tournement or something^^
Trygon Predator flies and does the same and is a 2/3 that blocks better against zoo..
But this is just my opinnion, I would maybe play 1/2 if I would go with countertop becasue of the manacost 2
Well, the first thing that strikes me when looking at both top 8 lists from Madrid is that both players seem to play Ponder as a 2/3-off...that's the first thing I'd like to know more of. Why would you play Ponder if you already play Brainstorm and some other forms of library manipulation (top/sylvan library etc.)?
Lluis Restoy finished 6th (without cb/top), Ruben Gonzales finished 5th (cb/top). This is the link: http://www.deckcheck.net/print.php?e...0+-+Top8+Decks
Looking at both lists I like Rubens list better as it contains less 1-offs and 2-offs, but I don't understand why it doesn't run Pridemage; I'd play Qasali over Tygron anytime (as a 3-off or 4-off).
I also don't quite understand the choice for Windswept Heaths over Flooded Strands...some seem to run a mix between these, some play a 3-off Flooded Strand (with 4x Misty Rainforest) without any Heaths.
All these things make it pretty confusing and difficult to get a good view on the deck. I'm building a list myself right now, but there are too many questions about the card choices. Can somebody school me on this? I did my homework well, but I just don't get some of the card choices. Why Predator over Pridemage? Why Ponder when we already play Brainstorm? Why 3x Top and 3x Daze instead of 4x Top and 4x Daze -2 Ponder? 3x Top and 4x CB seems not logical to me. Why Windswept Heath over Flooded Strand? 7 fetches and one extra basic island (or dual) or 8 fetches?
BantFTW: deleted and edited. This is the post.
I am certainly no expert with this deck but the import aspect for me when using the predator is its presene in the cmc 3 slot. While I only have 1 in my main, it combined with 4 monks gives me 5 3 drops main, usually enough to stop cards with counterbalance and top.
Pridemage is awesome, but usually more awesome in a bant aggro type of deck. If you were against running a plains in the deck, it certainly means you should have one in it then.
Also for me, I am doing the firespout side thing, and I already lose the hierarchs so I really dont need to lose even more men when I play the spell.
Yesterday I participated in the 32 man tournament in the Outpost in Brussels with a Bant countertop-NO-PRO deck. I won the first three rounds, ID'd twide, and lost in the quarter finals in the mirror match. For those who are interested, here is the list.
MD:
1 plains
1 forest
1 island
1 dryad arbor
4 misty rainforest
1 windswept heath
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 savanna
3 sensei's divining top
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 daze
4 force of will
2 ponder
3 counterbalance
3 natural order
4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
3 rhox war monk
1 progenitus
SB:
4 tormod's crypt
2 elspeth
1 counterbalance
1 threads of disloyalty
2 krosan grip
3 meddling mage
1 qasali pridemage
1 empyrial archangel
First round I played against a newbie who had a soldier deck (it was as bad as it sounds, although the opponent was an extremely nice guy so I won't say anything bad about the deck or the player). I swapped progenitus with the angel after sideboarding, and cruised to an easy victory.
Second round, I played against a UBGr countertop build. Progenitus was more than he could handle.
Third round was against a GW survival deck. I got lucky here. I had double goyf on the table in the third and final game, he had Genesis in the graveyard and sporefrog active to create a lock, but that cost him almost all his mana every turn. I drew two StP in a row, and plowed the frog twice in his discard step so I could attack for the kill (he sacked it, but was open to my charge in my own turn twice in a row).
Until thirty minutes before the tournament, I had elspeth main and all 4 cb in the side. I'll keep the 3-1 distribution for the future, and will drop elspeth altogether on account of it being too slow to be of pivotal use (it's good, but a sideboard card should be REALLY good when you draw it). I'll probably put path to exile in its place in the future. Meddling mage was quite useless, and I'll swap them for a fourth rhox and two jittes in the future.
This was the first time I played the deck, I think that if I get more experience with it it should prove to be quite good in the future.
EDIT: perhaps this post belongs in the NO-PRO thread. If that is the case, I request that it be moved there.
Eddy , could you just explain why only 5 fetchs and give us some details about the mirror match you lost.I'm interested in the mirror match cause I think it could be my weakness.
Five was a little low. I never had manaproblems, but often I found myself thinking I'd be pretty damn vulnerable to wasteland now. It was the first time I played the tournament, I will swap a savanna for a second windswepth. Originally, the counterbalanca was in the side, so hitting UU on turn two wasn't as important. When I changed my decklist right before the tournament, I didn't have the cards with me to alter the manabase, so I took my chances. It worked out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimi
In the mirror, he won the die roll and got his combo out faster than I did. I made sure to mention I was playing the combo too, then swapped it out (three NO, progenitus and the arbor) for a pridemage, a fourth counterbalanca and three meddling mages. In the second game my opening hand has three rhoxes, so I keep it. One is sent farming, but I beat him down to seven with the other two before progenitus hits there (I had planned to name natural order with the meddling mage, but that was too late now. He only has progenitus for a while when I draw a meddling mage. I play it, naming swords to plowshares. My top told me I had a second mage coming, but I needed to draw something else (I forget what). The plan was to name tarmogoyf with the second mage, but because I had to draw that other card, the mage comes one turn too late when he had already played a goyf. The boardposition had switched to the point that my 27 life vs his 7 was no longer a stalemate. It didn't help that he saw his countertop combo, and I didn't see mine, in game two.
EDIT: my mistake, I put in the threads instead of the fourth pridemage for game two. Didn't see it in the game though.
Why Ponder?
Because Brainstorm isn't any good without a shuffle effect. Sometimes you want to dig, and the flexibility of Ponder is important. It acts as a top activation or a shuffle effect, and that kind of versatility is valuable. You should never be casting Brainstorm unless you have a shuffle effect, or if you're countering something with Counterbalance. If you brainstorm on turn one or turn two and you don't have a shuffler, your opponent knows that you are either looking for land, or bad.
Eddy:
Have you ever considered cutting the Savannah's for 2/3 more fetch lands? 3x Savannah is at least 2 two much.
Malakai:
So Ponder as a 2-off/3-off is a better choice in general than 4x Daze, 4x Counterbalance, 4x Sensei's Divining top?
Never go 4 daze, and always go 4cb and 4top, always.
It's the best thing you have in your deck so...
Why would you play less if you really need it??
And ponder 2x is good for other draw and get's your goyf also higher...
Also, why would you play 4 daze.
You don't need 4, just go 3. Because it's a bad card lategame^^