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Though having more dredgers is always good, the only problem is cutting another card on your main board which is already a tight list to begin with. Entomb isn't necessary IMHO. I'd rather squeeze another dredger than use entomb. TBH having 12 dredgers is more than enough to avoid mulliganing to oblivion. Most of the successful lists already have around 11-12 dredgers anyways so I think squeezing the 13th is too much.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm a safe player in general. I like the singleton Entomb. I mean I've never really needed dread return G1. Especially with no targets, a huge troll isn't a big deal. Usually overkill. I mean protection from sweepers is not really necessary. Anything that runs sweepers just dies to Ichorids. As for sac outlets to get zombies, I find 4 therapies enough. I prefer to have the GUARANTEED T1 outlet-> dredger play into t2 the nuts.
Entomb is like outlet + dredger in one. And if drawn, Entomb = Grave Troll and not a bad dredge for 3 like Darkblast. If you already have the outlet + dredger, it serves as somewhat of a Demonic Tutor for Ichorid/Bridge or the critical Cabal Therapy when you need it. I have 2 DR and a Terastodon in the board if I need the explosiveness against storm or something busted like Enchantress.
I see your point on playing entomb in dredge but the probability of drawing a single entomb in your opening is extremely low and most of the time it's a dead card once you dredge into it which is why I think a 13th dredger is better than a singleton entomb coz the 13th dredger doesn't need to be in your opening to be useful.
Not to mention that Land -> Entomb is simply worse than just keeping any opening 7 with a Dredger and go DrawDiscardDredge.
I understand that a 13th dredger is better than the 1 entomb. However that dredger is darkblast and it only dredges for 3, which IMO is not worth the spot. I want a good dredger and the only way is entomb. It's like Grave Troll 5#. I won't keep a hand with darkblast as my only dredger while I will keep a hand with entomb as my dredger. I accept that entomb has a very small chance of appearing in my opening had but I don't mind because I'd rather see entomb compared to Dreturn. I win most games with Zombies, Ichorids + hand disruption.
While we're briefly talking about Entomb, I have a list that I saved and was wondering if we could discuss its viability. It's the German list with a very slight change.
11 Gold Lands
4 Coliseum
4 Breakthrough
3 Brainstorm
4 GGT
4 StImp
3 Thug
4 Tribe
4 PImp
3 Entomb
4 Bridge
3 Ichorid
4 Narco
4 Therapy
1 DR
So it sacrifices 4 Careful Study, 1 DR, and 1 Darkblast for 3 Entomb and 3 Brainstorm. Brainstorm is stronger as a draw than CS, obviously. Entomb is stronger as a discard outlet than CS, IMO. Entomb also supports binning a DR so it can be reduced to one, and the extra dredger had to removed for space.
Counting Careful Study as a discard outlet and draw is bad in that it removes a draw spell when you just need the discard or vice versa. Running 11 cards in each category of the deck: draw, land, dredger, and discard should increase consistency, right?
I'm going to test after midterms are over at the end of the week.
Looks interesting. I quite like the inclusion of Entomb but I still prefer CS over brainstorm. The problem with brainstorm is that you have to shove cards back into your library after dredging. I generally dislike that. Also if you kept a dredger less hand but have CS, you can use CS to try and dig for a dredger. If you use brainstorm, and you hit nothing, you have no way to shuffle. I also dislike trimming the 4th Ichorid and the 4th Thug.
I like the entomb, brainstorm not so much. Might be very good though! Let us know your testing results.How about if you went UB, with fetch's and seas. Cut the Tribes for CS. Of course, the deck gets weaker postboard as you lose grudges and firestorm. Probably not worth it.
Also on the rainbow land discussion, I play this:
4 Brass
4 Gemstone
2 Undiscovered
1 Tarnished
I'm a big fan of undiscovered. Bolting myself multiple times against aggro is terrible. Too much aggro in the meta nowadays.
I agree with the discussion about Undiscovered > Tarnished in a meta infested with aggro which is why I am currently testing a list with Bloodghasts and Ichorids (since I'm already running Undiscovered Paradise) and so far the list feels consistent enough during several playtest and goldfish sessions. I'll test it in my next tournament and see if I can take the list to top 8.
I liked Bloodghast Dredge in the past, and went 6-0 with it in a tourney 1 year ago... [there were 7 Dredge Players, and I was the only one with ghasts]
http://deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=17094
It's a bad decklist if I think about it, nowadays ... I'd cut 1 Salvage, 2 Iona and a Dread Return for 4 Tribes, and then do other changes, but in the end, BG-Dredge is sure possible
I went 5-1 in the swiss and finished 5th in the playoffs with my first try at bloodghast/ichorid dredge last year. I recently tweaked the list to maximize the consistency by also adding a playset of tribes, more gold lands, and dropping dakmor salvage.
I've never tried the bloodghast versions. So what's the advantage and disadvantage of playing the bloodghast versions? My initial thought is that the Bloodghast versions are faster? For example, T1 Outlet + dredger in to T2 the nuts. Dredge a bunch of Bloodghasts, then play a land and have them all back. Sack them to DR/therapy. So it's a turn faster compared to Ichorid right? I don't like it though. What if you don't draw Undiscovered and you get firespouted/EEd? Ichorids give you the better long game against control. Bloodghast versions seem better against combo when you need the dudes to sack straight away.
Bloodghast Dredge is around 1-2 turns SLOWER than normal Dredge, but it can outplay hate more easily [more threads, more possibilities to create zombie tokens, bloodghasts doesn't die EOT like Ichorids]... IMO it's more like weaken the Combo MUs, abd make the other [grindable-MUs] easier... -> against random tier 2 decks you will win anyways, with BG or non-BG Dredge.:laugh:
Ah I see, so you play Ichorids AND Bloodghast. I thought most lists play Ghast instead of Ichorids. If Bloodghasts serve as extra Ichorids, then I understand. Thanks for the explanation!
Ashen ghoul? This is a list I'm currently testing. Any input would be cool.
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid collisieum
4 lion's eye diamond
4 ggt
4 stinkwind imp
3 thug
1 darkblast
4 narcomeba
4 bridge
4 cabal therapy
4 ichorid
4 pimp
4 breakthrough
3 deep analysis
3 dread return
1 eternal witness
1 flamekin zealot
It trys to always hit a da. Or a dr to keep going.
12 dredgers, 12 lands, and 11 draw spells. It seems decent, I'll let you know how testing goes. Also wanna try leylines in the sb. Void and sanctity I think? The white one.
Why is it slower?Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
@menace13: It's a turn slower if you have paradise as your gold land to cast your outlet turn 1 and coliseum as a draw spell. Or if you already played a land the turn you cast your draw spell and dredge up a bunch of bloodghasts.
@Mizeri: IMHO Coliseum isn't really considered a land in dredge since you can't use it to cast your permanent discard outlet (PImp and Tribe) and (more importantly) answer to graveyard hate (with the exception of chain of vapor and pithing needle). I treat it more like a draw spell than a land.
How come that , once or twice every year, someone mentions the same bad dredge cards all over again and they are actually discussed? I mean serioulsy? Entomb was tested, and not implemented bc of it beeing a poor outlet/dead card like 2 years ago?
Same with Bloodghasts(wtf I hate this card!)
If I had known, that by originally posting the "german list"as you like to call it suc a discussion would break lose, I wouldn't have posted it at all.
I still want to try burning inquiry.. My sideboard is currently looking like
4 chain of vapor
4 unmask
1 ancestors chosen
1 terradon
4 firestorm
1 natures claim
I'll have to see if the 4th coll makes too much blue. I figured the leds might make up for it.
Gotcha, Thank you. The Paradise,Outlet,Coliseum hand would be a turn slower unless you had Study as the outlet since that can be cast with the Coliseum.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
How often is the 2nd scenario relevant and what would be different from a list not using Ghasts that played a land and a draw spell? Couldn't it just as easily dredge up useless things like Imp/Tribe(in place of Ghasts)?
Ghast seems strong to me for a few reasons;
1. Giving a higher % chance to have Cabal flashback and Bridge tokens than with just Narco alone. Increase in chance to get DReturn up quicker as well.
2. Force opponent to blow hate faster.
3. Casting Bad aggro beats backup plan.
Entomb as a miser sounds decent and not as bad as some make it sound to be. It is a tutor for a deck that wants all of its cards in GY.
Was it even legal 2 years ago?
The 12 land LED list is so awkward to me. I always mull to less than 5 trying to find a rainbow land for Hate games 2 and 3(and never find a Bazaar ;P ). Sometimes I get FoWd/Dazed on my only outlet then Wastelanded and can not find remaining 11 lands game 1.
Dredging up Bloodghasts with a draw spell would be basically the same as dredging up an Ichorid, you'll have to wait for the next turn to recur Bloodghasts with landfall if you've already played a land the turn you played your draw spell. The only difference: you could still recur bloodghasts on that same turn even if you've already played a land (ie. Dread Returning Sun Titan). I also have the same sentiments with your comments RE: Bloodghasts and LED.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13