Sounds to me that you want to run Mental Misstep. MN is also very good vs dredge. Combine it with 3-4 graveyard hate and it's really hard to loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
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Sounds to me that you want to run Mental Misstep. MN is also very good vs dredge. Combine it with 3-4 graveyard hate and it's really hard to loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I'm not so sure about that. If they land the white preditor or Iona turn 2 or 3 it's really hard to deal with it. And even if you play 4 MM it's no use when they drege out of cephalid coliseum.
Your only chance is to cheat stinger into play by lackey/vial.
Btw: MM is not the solution for all threads that can be dealt with Fanatic, although it does a pretty good job on making lackey connect turn 2.
How many times do you see Dredge win from a turn 0 Leyline of the Void?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
Avatara, it sounds like you are still running MMs main. I notice you have been a very vocal proponent of them of late. Are they still taking the Instigator slots for you? How are you spending your other 7-8 flex slots? Have you ever been unhappy to see them (topdeck, etc.)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
After several months without a local legacy event I plan to attend Redcap Corner's and Alternate Universe's upcoming tournaments in August!
The meta for both will be similar but I can guess what will be at AU moreso. I anticipate at least 3 other Goblin pilots as well as up to 4 fish. Because of local regulars I expect to see exactly 1 of each of the following: Dragon Stompy; Charbelcher; Tezz Affinity; ThopterTop; Enchantress; and Stiflenaught.
I expect Stoneforge Mystic to make a strong showing in any number of Bant, BW, or GWx decks. Rounding out the meta would be Dredge, Combo Elves, Staxx, and ANT/TES.
My read on the above is that having main deck artifact destruction will provide a decent advantage. I have traditionally run mono-red Goblins but feel that G splash is my best bet in this meta. It provides the quickest answer with Tin Street Hooligan and also allows Ancient Grudge and Krosan Grip to go into the sideboard.
I prefer to keep the mana denial package intact which means no Chrome Mox and keeping Warren Instigator and Goblin Chieftain to a minimum. How many Hooligans is too many maindeck? I'm considering 3 with 2 Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. Is this overkill?
My sideboard plan as of now is:
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip
My 12 flex spots would be:
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
3 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 undecided (leaning towards a 3rd Siege-Gang Commander and a Goblin Sharpshooter or 2 of something better that someone here would suggest.
Thoughts? Looking for feedback as these would only be my 3rd and 4th Legacy tournaments and I could be mis-reading how to best handle the above showing of decks.
@Ace:
Regarding your MD,3 Stings is 1 too many, and 3 TSH is 2 too many. It's going to be a bad card too often in many games. You really don't need 3, specially if you can tutor it up.
Sharpshooter does look awesome in this meta (can even handle EtW tokens!), and I'd even add maybe a Boartusk Liege. It's great i the mirror, and make your dudes trade with Merfolk, while being a 3/4 monster.
Maybe even Mogg Fanatic would be nice here, or Tarfire,since it kills those pesky Stoneforgers, Lackeys and merfolk Lords.
6 Slots against Grave strategies seems overkill. If you really want to run, 4 should suffice.
Krosan Grip seems better than Grudge, because of Stiflenought, Enchantress, and CB/Topter, and maybe you can trow 1 of those TSH here too, and even have a random Grudge too...
Don't know what to put on the remaining slots.
I'd go for:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Lands [23]
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
Core [26]
...
Others [11]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Sideboard [15]
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Surgical Extraction or Leyline of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst or Mindbreak Trap (if you're playing LotV)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge/Smash to Smithreens
1 Boartusk Liege
That should do, imo :)
Ace,
For your SB, you should probably take out one Pyrokinesis for an extra Krosan Grip. Having only two Krosan Grip is not enough if you actually want to draw it consistently against relevant decks. You probably do not need both Relic of Progenitus AND Surgical Extraction. You should probably pick one that fits better for your meta. Maybe have three Pyroblast, Magus of the Moon, or Blood Moon instead? But if you feel both graveyard hates will come in handy, then sure, go for it.
For your two undecided cards in MD, if you are considering Sharpshooter, you might as well use Skirk Prospector for the package.
Also, if you are going to use the Sharpshooter/Prospector package:
3 Gempalm Incinerator -> 4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger -> 1 Stingscourger + 2 Mogg War Marshal
3 Tin Street Hooligan -> 2 Tin Street Hooligan
I am not really a fan of Stingscourger but it is our answer against Emrakul. It also does not remove the threat but merely delays it for the most part. Gempalm can kill most relevant creatures in the current meta (for me at least), goes well against control decks (the meta is very blue right now), and provides card advantage; so it should be maxed out in my opinion. I'd also put in MWM because it goes well with Sharpshooter/Prospector and Incinerator.
But if you decide not to use Skirk Prospector, the suggestions above are good.
In a mono-red build, what's the ideal substitute for Tin-Street Hooligan?
Also, in an unknown meta, how would people's flex and side look like (if you were to run mono-red)
And what's up with Warren Instigator? Is he a good way to deal with Mental Missteps?
As I said, I tested a lot vs. dregde lately. I didn't play Leyline but Tormod's Crypt Turn 1 on the play just to see it getting hit by Natur's claim opponent's turn 1 or turn 2 by a dredged ancient grudge-so they know what to expect and how to board. It's not that I played bad since I want their graveyard to be gone as soon as necesarry and as late as possible. So in that case I lost although I had a hate card turn 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
@Ace: I would also go with:
4/1 or 3/ 2 Incinerator/Stinger split
1 TSH
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Mogg Fanatics (I'm currently testing 'em myself again)
2 MWM
--> MWM has great synergy with MWM if it's just turning 2 mana into 3 for once and Fanatic goes along with Sharpshooter!
Besides Prospector and Fanatic are awesome in fighting jitte and batterscull, which are usually present in SFM meta.
About mono red artifact hate: I think it's a question of playstyle. I prefer Tinkerer, because if you have warchief, it takes 1 turn and 2 red to get everything done! Another argument is, that vial is more often at 2 counters than on 4. Vial it in eot and activate in your turn.
Scrapper has the advantage of comes into play effect-so it can be used other than for artifact hate (Skrik Prospector). Shooting 1 point of damage doesn't make a difference.
My main argument of tinkerer over scrapper is, that I killed oponents vial/grindstone/dreadnought with it and still had an answer for more to come!
Sorry if I sound harsh, but you are making many logical mistakes here:
Sure, but Leyline restricts graveyard-action for the rest of the game. Dredge reall doesn't bother if you sacrifice your Crypt as soon as possible. To really disrupt them you need to fuse it at the right moment (meaning: when many important cards like Ichorid and Bridge from Below are in grave) and this is rarely possible. If you just use Crypt once, they can easily restart dredging for the win (just as you described).Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
Plus, For dealing with artifact-formed GY hate they have the possibility to fill their grave and dig for Ancient Grudge. For dealing with turn-0-Leyline they must actually DRAW their anti-hatepiece, which is much slower. So: If you want to spent slots on GY hate at all and you mind dredge, then you shopuld not spent more or less than 4 copies of Leyline of the Void. It's even worth taking mulligan for it!
Yeah, only that you most often DON'T have Warchief. That's because you opp will either get rid of Warchief in response, or in advance (because it's a threatening creature in itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
Yeah, but Vial is usually @ 2 for no longer than one turn. In this turn you need to put other creatures into play than Tinkerer in order to not set up pressure and not give you opponent the time to kill Tinkerer before he sees relevant targetsQuote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
I don't understand that part. Could you explain it a little more detailled?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
When do you care about multiple Vials/Grindstone/Dreadnought. Apart from that: Dreadnought strategies are basically dead (meaning: "not played anymore" and not "not competitive anymore") since the printing of Mental Misstep. Grindstone rarely hits the ground before the Combo-turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
WHat I DO see Tunkerer doing is eating up Mishra's Factories.
So you mean leyline is the only hate to be run vs. Dredge? Maybe it's my mystake to not run Leyline in a mono red build. It's always a dead draw, but splashing black you have a slight percentage of hardcasting it. Another reason is, that dredge might board up to 8 cards vs. our hate-giving the opporunity of having one in their opening 7...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Well, depends on the gamesituation: If I have MWM and Piledriver and no 3cc card, my vial will stay at 2 or if I need to get Stinger really bad like if opponent casted Iona.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Some more points on Tuktuk Scrapper: If Ringleader was vialed in and reveals Scrapper, vial can stay at 4. But most of the time it might be too late in the game go get one in by vial or hardcast 'cause of his cc. What I mean with his comes-into-play-effect is that he does his job at destroying any artifact and can be used from that moment on as attacker (pumping piledriver), blocker, target for Prospector (providing red mana/blocking jitte-batterscull) or SGC (2 more dmg). While you have to take care of your tinkerer, cause he still needs to do his job.
On the other hand if you tutor up tinkerer you might be able to play it right that turn, while it's not realistic to cast Scrapper the same turn (yes there are situations, where this happens but in that case you could play tinkerer and maybe another guy). So they would be available the same turn. And arguing that not activated tinkerer can be removed can be counter argued, that if your opp. knows you have that hate card, makes him brainstorm/ponder for Stifle.
Good point at those factories-I always forget about them becoming an artifact creature. I just wanted to say that sometimes Tinkerers ability can be used several times. Another example is affinity (memnite and thopers-'cause they usually get target of cranial plating vs. gobbos).
What would you like less in your opening 7 Tinkerer or Scrapper?
Thanks guys!
Messed around with gobbos a bit tonight and found this to be exactly correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
None, since it is a 1 or 2 off max.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
I'd rather Matron or draw a Scrapper though, since it's hard to keep Warchief alive, or having Tinkerer breathing for a hole turn.
Right, but if I have a quite good hand-I won't mull down 'cause of artifact hate. And if I have one I'd rather have Tinkerer. I always have the feeling that Scrapper takes to long to get into play, since vial isn't on 4 counters before turn 5 and if you miss your lands or waste, it can be a pain to get 4 lands online.
ok guys, after playtesting in the current meta, here is what I think. We need to add a lot more removal and take more the controlroute. Its almost impossible to beat the heavy creature count of Maverick, Zoo and stuff. Also its tough against the SFM Controldecks.
I added Tarfire instead of the Flunkies, also running Weirdings again. Why bother running artifact hate when you just kill all the dudes?
//Flex
4 Tarfire
4 Gempalm
2 Warren W
2 Chrieftain
Not finished testing yet, but Tarfire seems good.
This may actually seem good in the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey
For reference, I'd drop a Gempalm for a Stingscourger, to give you more flexibility.
Try it out, and let us know what you think.
Hi guys, i'm new in the forum's as well as new playing Goblins.
I played the last 2 big tournaments with the Rg build bellow losing both times at the Top4 :/
Would like to know what can i change to improve my MU aganist Stoneforge decks.
Most of my meta on those 2 champs were agroo/control very few combo at least.
that's the list i used:
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
5 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Taiga
[Core]
Flex:
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
2 Chrome Mox
2 Warren Instigator
Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Boartusk Liege
3 Pyrokinesis
Thanks for the help either way.
I'm going to try this out. I don't like Tarfire, but I do like Mogg Fanatic right now. So, with 22 lands (4 Waste, 4 Port, 14 Mountains) and the traditional core, I'm going to add 3 Mogg Fanatics, 4 Incinerators, Skirk Shooter Package, a Stingscourger, and a pair of Mogg War Marshalls. Thoughts?
I'd definitely make room for 1 more TSH in your SB. The card is really good against any SFM deck. I'd also play the full 4 Pyrokinesis in the SB because its just so insanely good. After that, the best thing you can do is practice against the SFM decks. With Goblins, moreso than many other decks, knowing your role in a specific matchup will help you significantly with your win %. I can't think of any SFM based deck where it isn't at least even, if not slightly favored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustaco