Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
I've been considering going "fearless" against artifact/enchantment hate, as number 1 they're rarely being played now due to DRS, and number 2 they're simply unreliable/inconsistent. You need BOTH Arbor and Claim/Silence in your opening hand or you're screwed, no way am I mulling for those. With Arbor gone, this can easily be replaced by 4 Chancellor of the Annex, which in my opinion, is simply the SHIT. I've been playtesting this against a couple of the more popular decks in our meta and it has worked wonders! Not only does it delay Brainstorm/Ponder for blue-based decks, it stalls DRS by a turn (and as all of you might already know, turn 1 DRS is the only DRS that a capable Manaless Dredge player fears), screws loose keeps (oh, so you kept a zero 1-drop hand because you had 2 lands and a Bob/SFM huh?) and finally it helps the deck go "faster" as our opponents go "slower".
By going "fearless", we open up shitloads of space in our SB. Removal obviously is the first choice (I've delegated much of the removal in the board as I am playing around with Bloodghasts and Probes again) followed by more combo hate (Mindbreak Trap). I can finally alot 2-4 spaces for the SnT matchup (Kederekt Leviathan and/or a split with Angel of Despair). I'm also trying to fit in 7-8 slots for LEDs and Faithless Looting which helps a lot when our opponent "time walks" us G2:
2 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Kederekt Leviathan
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Faithless Looting
Anyway, will be busy playing Nic Fit for a while :)
I'm pretty happy to see some others Manaless players trying LED in their SB.
I just think you still have some fear with this type of SB :
Try this list, it is really tight and scoops on Leyline but very fun :
ManaLeD
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 3 Deep Analysis
SB: 4 Desperate Ravings
SB: 4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 4 Sickening Shoal
The goal is pretty simple, to go off before hate comes. You add massive business in G2 to explode T1-T2.
+11 cards : 4 LED +7 Blue draw spells (you will see why i don't use faithless)
-11 cards : -1 Flayer, -4 Phantasman, -3 Shambling, -2 Grisel - 1 Shadow
In this type of plan, Chancelor is really nut, it gives protection to land a LED and use a draw spell and also is a Fat target to DR. Taxing effect T1 is quite insane.
You got 15 draw spells and you can chain them :
Put LED in play :
Play Probe in response recycle Streetwraith and in response crack LED. I got 7 chances to draw more with Analysis + desperate taking blue mana from LED (got a fizzle factor if i run Faithless)
Quote:
I don't understand how running LED's and Faithless Lootings sideboard is any different in the consistency then running lands and Disenchant effects in the side.
With disenchant effects you can't decently take a mulligan and it results to some more timewalk for you. With a LED side based, you can mulligan if your hand is really horrible or just mull to get a LED and a dredge card with the drawback that you scoop against LL.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrheizenberg
I'm pretty happy to see some others Manaless players trying LED in their SB.
I just think you still have some fear with this type of SB :
Try this list, it is really tight and scoops on Leyline but very fun :
ManaLeD
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 3 Deep Analysis
SB: 4 Desperate Ravings
SB: 4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 4 Sickening Shoal
The goal is pretty simple, to go off before hate comes. You add massive business in G2 to explode T1-T2.
+11 cards : 4 LED +7 Blue draw spells (you will see why i don't use faithless)
-11 cards : -1 Flayer, -4 Phantasman, -3 Shambling, -2 Grisel - 1 Shadow
In this type of plan, Chancelor is really nut, it gives protection to land a LED and use a draw spell and also is a Fat target to DR. Taxing effect T1 is quite insane.
You got 15 draw spells and you can chain them :
Put LED in play :
Play Probe in response recycle Streetwraith and in response crack LED. I got 7 chances to draw more with Analysis + desperate taking blue mana from LED (got a fizzle factor if i run Faithless)
With disenchant effects you can't decently take a mulligan and it results to some more timewalk for you. With a LED side based, you can mulligan if your hand is really horrible or just mull to get a LED and a dredge card with the drawback that you scoop against LL.
Why Deep Anal? Faithless Looting pls :laugh: And I don't think playing more than 4 draw spells (other than Probe, Wraith isn't a spell) is good. They're dead in your opening without LED. On the other hand, LED is certainly as good with or without a draw effect.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
Why Deep Anal? Faithless Looting pls :laugh: And I don't think playing more than 4 draw spells (other than Probe, Wraith isn't a spell) is good. They're dead in your opening without LED. On the other hand, LED is certainly as good with or without a draw effect.
Because you want to crack LED for U
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ziilot
Because you want to crack LED for U
Only if you're playing Desperate Ravings and Deep Analysis.
Faithless is good because the dredgers you just gained go back to the yard, instead of being stuck there hoping for Phantasmagorian.
I don't think I'd wanna play with 8 cards in the main that need an LED, seeing as LED's don't return from the yard......:confused:
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
LEDs in your opening hand in G2 work great even without Looting. It also gives us the option to mull for it in G2 as even without Looting in your GY you still get to discard your whole hand. You basically go from all in G1 to NUTS AND BALLS ALL IN G2 if need be. Mulling/inconsistency issues with the anti-hate we pack post board is a different thing. LEDs post board offers explosiveness on the play. You only need LEDs in the opening hand, Looting is not an issue. Even if you keep 7 and DDD, you can keep the LED until you have Looting in the yard and just fuck the game up. FEARLESS :laugh:
I will definitely try this out, maybe in the next few bigger tourneys in our country. But time is not yet ripe. Everyone is still scared of Mr. rektareloaded! :laugh:
I'd be super excited in order to be able to play the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting package again
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
LEDs in your opening hand in G2 work great even without Looting. It also gives us the option to mull for it in G2 as even without Looting in your GY you still get to discard your whole hand. You basically go from all in G1 to NUTS AND BALLS ALL IN G2 if need be. Mulling/inconsistency issues with the anti-hate we pack post board is a different thing. LEDs post board offers explosiveness on the play. You only need LEDs in the opening hand, Looting is not an issue. Even if you keep 7 and DDD, you can keep the LED until you have Looting in the yard and just fuck the game up. FEARLESS :laugh:
I will definitely try this out, maybe in the next few bigger tourneys in our country. But time is not yet ripe. Everyone is still scared of Mr. rektareloaded! :laugh:
As much as I love inovation and trying stuff, I still don't really get the LED package. Sorry :-)
Why would you want that explosiveness game 2?
I could understand LED/Faithless main and side it out game2, since this could have us actually be able to start game 1. And be explosive game 1, while having less fear of hate game 2.
The other way around just sounds strange to me.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TraxDaMax
Why would you want that explosiveness game 2?
Leyline of the Void = autolose.:cry:
Considering RiP comes in on turn 2, speed would be everything provided LotV has been dodged.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Leyline of the Void = autolose.:cry:
Considering RiP comes in on turn 2, speed would be everything provided LotV has been dodged.
Well, I thought that was the reason we played Dryad Arbor, and Reverent Silence plus Nature's Claim in side.
Before Hollywood brought Dryad maindeck, I was running 4 Dryad, 3 Fetch, 1 Forest side together with 4 Nature's Claim and 3 Rev. Silence. And I more then once blew up Leyline turn 1 or 2.
Usually because opponents back then didn't expect it.
But being explosive game 2 doesn't help game 2 against leyline of the void.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ziilot
Because you want to crack LED for U
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Only if you're playing Desperate Ravings and Deep Analysis.
Faithless is good because the dredgers you just gained go back to the yard, instead of being stuck there hoping for Phantasmagorian.
I don't think I'd wanna play with 8 cards in the main that need an LED, seeing as LED's don't return from the yard......:confused:
Definitely I would only want 3-4 Faithless Lootings with 4 LEDs in the SB. I think more would just kill us unless there's any way to play 5-8 LEDs :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
I'd be super excited in order to be able to play the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting package again
Serum Powder might work well with the game plan post board but it just takes too much space. LED is the only dead card I want in my GY, as it makes up for that fact by being just plain explosive in your opening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TraxDaMax
As much as I love inovation and trying stuff, I still don't really get the LED package. Sorry :-)
Why would you want that explosiveness game 2?
I could understand LED/Faithless main and side it out game2, since this could have us actually be able to start game 1. And be explosive game 1, while having less fear of hate game 2.
The other way around just sounds strange to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TraxDaMax
Well, I thought that was the reason we played Dryad Arbor, and Reverent Silence plus Nature's Claim in side.
Before Hollywood brought Dryad maindeck, I was running 4 Dryad, 3 Fetch, 1 Forest side together with 4 Nature's Claim and 3 Rev. Silence. And I more then once blew up Leyline turn 1 or 2.
Usually because opponents back then didn't expect it.
But being explosive game 2 doesn't help game 2 against leyline of the void.
Don't get me wrong, but I am just trying out a new route by going "FEARLESS". My stand is that anti-hate is simply useless if you don't draw it in your opening, and with how Manaless works you simply can't afford to mull down to even 6 for that. I can't recall the number of times that I just prayed I draw 1 Arbor 1 Nature's Claim in my opening as I knew my opponent was playing Cage, then I just don't get it and decide to keep a hand that just dies to it. Add that to the fact that most people are already foregoing GY-specific hate cards as they're confident their DRS or their friends'/other players' DRS scare the dredge players away.
Basically, since we'll usually be on the play post-board, by bringing in LEDs and Lootings we will have the ability to mull to LED, show a Chancellor, and then just freakin' win the following turn. :)
Of course, haven't tested it too much. Will let you guys know how it pans out. :smile:
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Call to the Netherworld if you're going fearless?
Sac LED, then discard your hand = pay the madness cost, and then recur a Wraith to your hand to dredge some more..... just an idea.
Could also use it at end of turn to grab a Wraith from the yard a second time and DDD.
Wha'chu think Sherko?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SquirtMcGirt
I don't want the creature removal main deck, so that gives me four slots to fill. Chancellor (or) gitaxian probe?
Annex is better. It acts as pseudo-protection for your end-of-first-turn discard, as without them blowing up a 0-cost spell, they won't be able to pay the 1.
Probe can't be played until turn 2, so it means that DRS, Relic of Progenitus etc will still be able to kill your first turn discard, and stop you doing anything besides wish mummy would fix it.:cry:
Don't worry about always hitting with Therapy, you'll get better as you get to know the deck types and learn which cards are murderous against us.
After a dickload more testing, I've dropped the maindeck removal and put Annex in there too.
Despite my earlier whinging about it....... it's pretty good.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Call to the Netherworld if you're going fearless?
Sac LED, then discard your hand = pay the madness cost, and then recur a Wraith to your hand to dredge some more..... just an idea.
Could also use it at end of turn to grab a Wraith from the yard a second time and DDD.
Wha'chu think Sherko?
Call to the Netherworld would be great! But I really don't like building too much around the post board LEDs. As I said earlier, the 3-4 Faithless Lootings would suffice for me. Call to the Netherworld would probably be an option if and only if it was MD-able. Too bad it isn't. :(
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SquirtMcGirt
Chancellor felt like the better card overall, but there were instances when it felt like being a little faster would have won games, but chancellor left me feeling like it was was better. It really shined against reanimator (fuck you entomb for elesh norn lol) and against belcher. This deck is amazingly consistent though holy hell.
Sometimes, you get to DR Chancellor on your first actual turn (the turn you dredge)... And boy o boy, what an amazing feeling that is. :laugh:
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Dread Return a Chancellor - First turn? How?
Once you first turn discard, I thought that was it - you couldn't activatePhants/Wraith your dredger until your opponents' end step, therefore DR until turn 2?
(DR is a sorcery anyways)
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Dread Return a Chancellor - First turn? How?
Once you first turn discard, I thought that was it - you couldn't activatePhants/Wraith your dredger until your opponents' end step, therefore DR until turn 2?
(DR is a sorcery anyways)
If you read closely I did say "first actual turn" with "the turn you Dredge" in parenthesis :laugh: Did this against Elves combo (my brother) the other day... Damn fun times. :laugh:
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
If you read closely I did say "first actual turn" with "the turn you Dredge" in parenthesis :laugh: Did this against Elves combo (my brother) the other day... Damn fun times. :laugh:
Oh man.... I guess I didn't think about that one much b4 I hit reply. :confused:
Although;
If you have a dredger in hand, Wraith, Probe and LED on turn 1, instead of end of turn discard; > Play LED, Cast Probe, Cycle Wraith, Activate LED > Dredge away.
And who knows, you may even get a first turn Therapy that way too?:cool:
With DRS around the traps, I like this option!
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Oh man.... I guess I didn't think about that one much b4 I hit reply. :confused:
Although;
If you have a dredger in hand, Wraith, Probe and LED on turn 1, instead of end of turn discard; > Play LED, Cast Probe, Cycle Wraith, Activate LED > Dredge away.
And who knows, you may even get a first turn Therapy that way too?:cool:
With DRS around the traps, I like this option!
In G2 this is almost always a good play. Firstly, blue decks like to board out FoW against us. Second, well you're on the play. Third, might as well go nuts the first turn instead of going DDD if you have a draw effect and LED in your opening. :tongue:
