Can you post a full decklist?
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Can you post a full decklist?
Pretty classic list except for wastelands and noxious revival :Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
4 Blighted Agent
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Glistener Elf
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Invigorate
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Force of Will
2 Berserk
2 Spell Pierce
1 Become Immense
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
3 Wasteland
1 Noxious Revival
My siboard is basically :
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Viridian Corrupter
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Spellskite
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 various slot (crop for instance)
Interesting list. I am not 100% on the wasteland plan, since you now have 7 colorless sources which can make a lot of hands unplayable. I some times draw the waste+inkmoth hand, and i would never keep that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adibou1er
And you're right not to keep such hands :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
Tom Ross (again) says not to. But since I play one more land, and that I still have 8 green fechtlands..
On 20 games, I had 1 manadeath from a risky hand.
And I'm not saying the manabase is riskless. I'm saying it worths trying, to have another plan.
For instance I just won vs RUG delver (with stifle) thanks to my wastelands cutting his red. But that's not relevant for the matchup.
(please guys excuse my rusty english :))
Hey everyone,
I haven't thought about legacy much since Columbus but the time is approaching to think about legacy and returning to Columbus for eternal weekend at the end of the month.
I considering a few things and I wanted your opinion on them.
Deck as it stands now:
4 Blighted A
4 Noble H
4 G Elf
4 Inky
1 dryad arbor
1 Sylvan Library
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 invigorate
2 berserk
2 vines
2 blossoming defense
4 brainstorm
2 Git Probe
2 Spell Pierce
1 become immense
1 ponder
1 Crop Rotation
4 misty
4 wooded
3 trop
1 forest
1 pendelhaven
1 wasteland
In the main I am adding a second blossoming defense, as that card was a stud for me this weekend, and a second spell pierce though I could be convinced to make that a flusterstorm. The cards I am cutting for those are one utility slot, and a daze.
My main question is which sideboard plan to go with the white package or the one of package.
edit: apparently spoiler tags don't work.
I was really high on that card when it was spoiled, but I haven't been happy with it in real matches, so I went back to Vines of Vastwood.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
If you're running 3 Wastelands, wouldn't Loam in the board be amazing? Few decks can recur both manlands and wastelands let alone run both in any appreciable numbers.
I'm note happy with dredging cards that could be more usefull in my hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
But with sylvan it can be interesting.
The question is, what would we replace ?
[FONT=Arial Black]I am currently of the opinion that the one of package is better due to how versatile you are against most of the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
Eldrazi? Meekstone has you covered
Graveyard decks? 2nd Crop Rotation and Bojuka bog say hi
Cabal Therapy? You have a bunch of one ofs, won't be too good.
Sneak and Show? Karakas has you covered.
Jitte? Pithing Needle or you can even run Null Rod if you want to just get every artifact.
I mean, don't get me wrong, the white package is strong because the hate pieces are strong, I just prefer the flexibility that a one of package gives me.
Hey guys I just joined the infect side of the table, i was wondering if you guys could inform me of any sequencing tips or any common plays i should know; better to learn now and I'll probably learn the hardways also. Also ive read The Boss's mulligan guide but would like your guys opinions. Finally, the 15 different card sideboard has always been overwhelming so any guidance on cards that are acceptable to cut will be greatly appreciated (white vs non-white version? Etc.) Thank you.
Heyo, welcome to the winning side of the table. Practice counting to ten, you're going to be doing a lot of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellysandall
Some pretty basic stuff:
-You're a tempo deck before a combo deck. Gerry Thompson has a fantastic article here http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Archetype.html about Infect and similar decks, I'd recommend taking a look at that to get a better idea of how this deck plays out. Essentially, you more often play a safe and incremental game rather than combo out and open yourself up to card disadvantage by losing your creatures in response to pumping them. The threat of being able to combo out generally wins you more games than actually comboing out.
-Patience is the name of the game with this deck. If you're deploying a creature, it's either because you can protect it to a reasonable extent or because you have more in hand and want to bait out counters/removal. The deck plays a somewhat low 12-13 infect creatures, and as such, even with cantrips you'll occasionally lose games to not being able to find a threat. This goes doubly so if you're loose about protecting them.
-Get familiar with the format. I'm not sure how much legacy experience you have, but a huge part of playing a deck with reactive elements (pump spells, counter magic) is knowing exactly what to look out for and play around in every single matchup. You'll run into plenty of situations where you have to decide which pump spell to use to save a creature, or which cards are least important and okay to put back with brainstorm, or in which situations its okay to let your creatures die in order to pick up a small advantage on board that you can then convert into a win. It's all going to come with experience, but at a bare minimum base line you need to be familiar with most of the decks in legacy and what threats they represent if you want to succeed with this deck.
Then there's a bunch of the more corner case stuff, like
-Using Daze to pick up Tropical Islands and play around Islandwalk/Submerge
-Wasteland-ing a fetch land and casting soft permission in response to the fetch activation
-Crop Rotating into Inkmoth Nexus end of turn. Or just Crop rotating for a fetch to fuel delve cost on Become Immense
-Using soft permission to coax your opponent into tapping out so you can set up lethal in the following turn
-Casting pump spells in the main phase if you have a Daze, which lets you pick up your Island and cheat one extra mana into the equation
-Knowing every possible Stifle target
-Vines of Vastwood to prevent your opponent from equipping or activating Mother of Runes
-Thousands more, legacy is a complicated format with an incredible number of cards that all have diverse interactions
As for sideboarding, think of it as a collection of cards that are good in very specific matchups, but not consistent enough to slot into the main deck. Stuff like Surgical Extraction or Rest in Peace is good against graveyard based decks, while cards like Submerge, Dismember, or Swords to Plowshares might be better against creature based decks. Once you get a better idea of what your meta looks like, you can tailor your sideboard accordingly. But before that, it's difficult to say.
White splash has pros and cons. In a nutshell, white splash gives some stronger options against specific decks, but is overall less consistent. The big two are Swords to Plowshares and Rest in Peace (strong against creature decks and graveyard decks respectively.) You also have options in things like Containment Priest, Absolute Law, Serenity, or even Qasali Pridemage that have much more fringe applications, but could feasibly see play. If you're new to sideboarding and it seems overwhelming, best advice is to copy a sideboard that you think looks good, then adjust it accordingly for your meta. Pay attention to what cards you're happy to have and what cards spend most of their time on the bench, then swap in more of the former in and take out all of the latter.
You sir are the man. Im pretty good at knowing decks and what they play. The play you listed that confused me was wasteland-ing the fetch?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
So let's say I've got 4 islands and a Scalding Tarn. I tap 4 islands to cast Jace, the Mind Sculptor and leave Daze mana up. You respond by casting Crop Rotation, grabbing a Wasteland, and shooting my Scalding Tarn. In response I tap sac and pay one life to fetch a land, so you respond by Dazing Jace. I can't pay for it because the fetch is still on the stack, and you found value in Daze on turn 5, long after the part of the game where it's best.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellysandall
So today (5 rounds at LGS) I brought the white splash, mainly because I'm having trouble with RUG delver in my local meta. I think I boarded:
+2 RIP
+2 Swords
+1 Spellskite
+2 Flusterstorm
+ Savannah
-3 Daze/Force (play/draw)
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Gitaxian Probe (have 3 maindeck)
-2 Spellpierce (Flusterstorm is strictly better here)
-1 Trop
Sadly, I didn't see any of my white cards, so I can't really make an informed judgement. But I wonder overall if it's worth it. RIP can be devastating (also neuters annoying Lavamancers), but game two my opponent clocked me with 2 flipped delvers, so yeah. As for Swords, I wonder if I want to be the control deck in the matchup. Also, against a deck that constantly attacks your manabase with Stifle/Wasteland, the white splash seems a bit awkward. So what do you guys think about the RUG matchup, what is your sideboard plan?
Also played against R/G Lands. Sure, RIP and Skite are no-brainers here. But I'm wondering about Swords (vs Marit Lage). Again, I feel, I don't want to clog my hand up with too many reactive cards. If they have the combo early, well, such is life. I'd rather go all in and kill them with vines etc. before they get the lock going. Do you think Swords is worth it, ultimately?
Another matchup, I'm unsure about is Grixis Delver. I guess you board in the 2 RIPs, seeing as they'll have Angler, DRS, Lavamancer and Darkblast? It's also a matchup where I'd bring the Swords in.
So, from your experience, do you like the white splash in a delver-heavy meta?
On a related sidenote, I think some sort of overhauled sideboard guide would be really cool. I feel the Tom Ross one is good, but a bit dated and it glosses over a lot of stuff.
Cheers
Top 8'ed GPT Chiba today... 4-1 on a 32man tourney. Lost quarters to same guy I got my only L in the swiss. I was 3rd seed, (placed 6th over-all). Played the bant version of the odd list 3 nobles/2dazes list. Won vs burgtempo/bugdelver/affinity/thalia stompy... eldrazi remained to be the thorn, guy had his chalices all day!
DECKLIST:
// Main deck : 60
// Sideboard : 15
spells:
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 Crop Rotation
1 Blossoming Defense
2 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
2 Berserk
1 Become Immense
creatures:
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
lands:
1 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wasteland
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Inkmoth Nexus
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Viridian Corrupter
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
R1 (2-1 vs BURGTempo)
Lost game1, My opponent knows what deck i carried, I know he's on BUG... this time with Bolts haha! 2 forked, dismember...bam it was fast i wasnt able to establish. games 2 and 3 my probes we're keys to victory. Sequencing the right pumps and protection vs his dismember mattered when going for the kill. (I exalted attacked, he bolted.. pump via Bimmense, he dismembered... Bdefense ftw!)
R2 (1-2 vs ELDRAZI)
Game1 cotv 1 seals it, I was very fast with an opening glistener, he tried Amethyst, I forced. All went berserk next turn. Game 3 I had 2x blighteds, no permission with an invi... he opened again with a cotv1, I was able to connect to up to 7 infect when suddenly his jitte joined the party. Not fair with my 2 double vines : (
R3 (2-0 vs AFFINITY)
We're just basically faster with a resolved blighted. 2 corrupters was huge here too.
R4 (2-1) vs BUGDELVER)
Paired with a fellow teammate, Both facing lethal Game1, I just need to draw any pump for my blighted vs his 2 goyfs, wasnt lucky enuff. G2 and 3 inkmoths got there. He reserved his FOW for my sylvan thus making way for a timely Invi. He had 2 needles on board, glad he didnt draw any... I have 3 inkmoths on the play. Key card here is STP, I was able to clear way for my inkys vs his delvers. RIP is huge, but wasnt able to draw it.
R5 (2-0) vs THALIA STOMPY
Here I was able to draw my much needed permissions early on vs some of lock pcs. Both games, by the time he landed any of the Thalias to slow me down. I was already there at the finish line.
Seeded 3rd Quarterfinals
(0-2 vs ELDRAZI same guy)
Fows werent enough for multiple chalices, He was just able to draw them consistently! I had berserk/invi already. but will still fall short.
Adjustments:
Lots still are with Eldrazi, It's just tough even when you're able to counter cotvs, TKS will hit you early. I hate that card. Im putting in more punching power, avoiding that dreaded cotv1. Several times im topdecking an invi or a bimmense ftw... if anyone showed, it was over.
(Main: -1ponder / -1 vines = +1 become immense/ +1 Bdefense)
Jesture, would you mind posting your current list please? I've played a lot of Infect in Modern and have finally finished a set of Trops and got Berserks so can play the Legacy version. I've helped friends test it for GPs so have been on the Miracles / Delver side of things hundreds of times, will be nice to be on the other side!
I must say, between yourself and a couple of others you guys have a great thread here. No shit talking or arrogance and a constant stream of well thought out posts. I've been secretly very jealous this level of conversation isn't apparent in other threads. Keep up the good work!
White splash tends to have stronger, but more specific answers. Against RUG and probably traditional BUG delver, I'd say it's worth bringing in your Rest in Peaces. Against Grixis, however, I'd say otherwise as it really just comes down to them not being a Goyf deck. RUG has Goose Goyf, BUG has Goyf Deathrite. Bringing in Rest in Peace against Grixis turns off maybe half of Deathrite and 1-2 Anglers if they left them in.Quote:
Originally Posted by batter-call-skull
On the topic of Swords, I feel pretty good about bringing it in against most Delver decks. The traditional tempo game plan is to resolve a threat and then keep the opponent off balance with counter magic until the threat gets there. To that end, being able to remove a threat in a deck with a somewhat low threat count can usually slow them down pretty significantly and hopefully buy you enough time to win the game. But same as Rest in Peace, it's slightly worse against Grixis as they have a lot of presence with Pyromancer, even after it's removed.
I'd keep in Dazes against all Delver decks. Maybe cut 1 on the draw, but these matchups so often come down to raw card number, the Force of Will 2 for 1 often ends up being too much to come back from. Not to mention that fighting to resolve or protect Hierarch on t1 - t2 can make or break a game on its own, and Daze is pretty essential for that fight.
If I knew I'd be seeing a lot of non-Grixis delver I'd definitely want to be playing white splash. Not to say that white splash is objectively bad against Grixis, it's just not as strong as it is against some of the other delver decks. And agreed, a sideboard overhaul would be fantastic for this deck.
Heyo, congrats on your set of Trops and Berserks, and welcome to the winning team =). Thanks for the shoutout, I've got to agree and say that I really enjoy the level of mature discussion we have in here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
List is something like this:
Maindeck:
4x Glistener Elf
4x Blighted Agent
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Viridian Corrupter (lots of chalice at my shop, probably wouldn't play this maindeck at a big tournament)
4x Inkmoth Nexus
3x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
1x Pendelhaven
1x Wasteland
4x Invigorate
2x Vines of the Vastwood
2x Berserk
1x Become Immense (might bump up to 2, we had 30% Eldrazi at our last weekly)
1x Blossoming Defense (can't seem to draw this card, so still not sure if it's any good. 3rd Vines here is probably just as good if not slightly better)
3x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x Ponder
1x Crop Rotation
1x Stifle
1x Swords to Plowshares (This is really just for kicks and giggles. I've got a Savannah maindeck to save sideboard slots, so I figured I'd throw in 1x Swords to get some free wins against the Reanimator pilots)
Flex slots are Stifle, Viridian Corrupter, and Swords to Plowshares.
Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Absolute Law
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Wasteland
1x Crop Rotation
1x Sylvan Library
1x Nature's Claim
2x Krosan Grip
1x Flusterstorm
1x Hydroblast
1x Force of Will
Still not too sure what to think of this configuration to be honest. It's been winning games, but I feel it's lacking the silver bullet feel that sideboards typically have. Your best bet is probably to just sleeve up 15 cards you think are good for your meta, and then adjust accordingly.
Here's the link:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13735&f=LE
New Tweaks:
Recently I’m seeing more controlling stuffs like chalices, thorn amethyst, spheres, thalias etc.. unlike before where tempo is the name of the game via delvers, deathrites, guides.. ruled the field. Eldrazis made a huge impact in today’s Legacy diversity.
1. Im bringing in back the 2nd BECOME IMMENSE, Ive read what’s JESTURE’s planning (“might bump up to 2, we had 30% Eldrazi at our last weekly”), and that’s the best way we beat em! Last night I’ve tested a few games vs Eldrazi, and I won most of the games! The plan is FOW any early chalices, well, that’s given...but then again there will be times we wont be able to do that, and that’s how they wreck our speed negating bombs like berserks, mini pumps and cantrips to find em. With the 2nd Bimmense, all we got to do is land an inky/blighted.... on a resolved cotv1, fireup all your 1cc spells you can as early as possible (try reserving some blue spells as fow fodder) and suddenly we have better chances with invis and bimmenses.
Here’s an example on how to load up your graveyard FAST! Turn 2 kill via Glistener/Bimmense
(The combinations for a T2 kill varies, and we have lots of those variations.... Im discussing this exclusively for Bimmense)
example hand: (all cards presented have more than 1 copy in my list)
glistener/fetch/fetch/probe/crop rotation/bimmense/invigorate
T1: probe (1 fresh card), drop fetch land/crack fetch, crop rotating fetched land/get another fetch land, crack fetch for a forest/trop/sav (if playing W) land glistener. (5cards in GY)
That’s daze protected, cotv1 protected, berserk-less T2 kaboom! (6cards in GY including Invi) provided they dont land any blocker. And you still have a few cards in hand (via probe and new card drawstep).
2. Im beginning to love BEFENSE too! I’ll be adding up the 2nd copy less the 2nd vines. The card is an ambush card that Vines wont be able to provide us early on... (Again, as previously discussed in this thread. Vines are very useful against equipping, Well, It’s not gonna make me worry with my tons of hate in my SB list... BRING IT ON!)
Several times in my experience, Opponents will surely target our infectors, will not worry much bout our seemingly harmless noble hierarchs, and tends to abuse their 0/1 body frame. Unflipped delvers, deathrites, confidants, goblin guides, thalia, sfms, name it.... BEWARE!
BEFENSE also helps our mini-biggie Viridian Corrupters clear ways. An exalted is suddenly a 5/5, non exalted is ofcourse a 4/4.. And that helps us clear threats vs TKS, goyfs, golems etc...
The app is wider I think....
1. Serves as creature removal via ambush (faster than vines)
2. Permission vs spot removal (auto is a +2 boost, note that good opponents will try to kill our infectors on their turn, some would eventually attack us and this where mistakes sometimes happens, well on their side... ex: Opponents Turn... abrupt decay your blighted, Befense in response... attack confidant/shardless/yp etc... sometimes missing the boost BEFENSE provided to our blocking Blighted : )
3. Dodges mass removal, from spells like pyroclasms. roughs, deluges etc... that an unkicked Vine wont be able to provide. Remember that during sideboarding, all their hate will come out. Adding the 2nd copy strengthens our poison conduits... bear in mind, we only need just 1 to execute the W. Even if we have 100 pumpspells in our hand, without any of our infectors alive... It’s not gonna happen for us.
summary of my adjustments:
(+1 Bimmense / +1Befense)
(-1 Ponder or Probe / -1 Vines Vastwood)
Infect Them All!
Im considering the same thing on bimmense, but mostly because i want to be more aggressive - not because of Eldrazi (never face them here), but I see it is useful against them too.Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
I would say that cutting a probe is wrong if upping up a bimmense, as they are sweet fodder in the yard. The second ponder should go though.
Are you considering a second croprot main? I ran that when DTT was popular (2 delve spells main), and maybe it could come back here. THat also increases chances of croprotting for a wasteland or the inkmoth in response to a chalice on 1. Do you think we have enough fodder without the seocond croprot?
EDIT: oh wait, i saw in your list you already run 2. lol. Nice :) Then. don't you miss the probes? I sometimes play with the full set and like it. Do we run into blue count problems for FOW?
I ran Blossoming D. last time and it actually helped a bit, though im unsure if we have room for both 2 of them and 2 bimmense :/
Lastly, If chalice on 1 is a huge problem, I dont think the flusterstorm main is good. I run 2 pierce as they stop the crucial turn 1 and 2 plays that screw us up (top, jitte if hardcasted), balance, chalice....) . :)
My list:
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Blighted Agent
2 Blossoming Defense
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Glistener Elf
4 Invigorate
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vines of Vastwood
Sideboard:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Karakas
2 Krosan Grip
1 Naturalize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Viridian Corrupter
EDIT: RIP doenst seem good in my meta atm, and i've never liked tapping out to play 2 mana enchantment in this deck - so i stick with croprot and bog, and try out STPs today.
First off, sorry for asking about Storm sideboarding and then not coming back for days, but thanks to Jesture and Poxy for their, as per usual, awesome and well thought out responses. I've been trying to race storm, but I'm going to go the more controlling route and see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
Neffy: small adjustment, but if you're doubling up on BI, does Hydroblast make more sense that BEB, since you can fire it at a non-blue permanent EOT to fuel delve?