Finks and Heirarch was discussed a page or two back. I also prefer Finks, due to his amazing synergy with therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Mass
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Finks and Heirarch was discussed a page or two back. I also prefer Finks, due to his amazing synergy with therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Mass
I've switched the maindeck slot to Finks. I still love Hierarch, but the clincher became that Finks can be cast strictly off green. So my list is currently -1 Hierarch, +1 Finks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Mass
I'm starting to test this list and wanted to get some feed back on it. I'm currently having a little trouble with drawing lands, so I'm going to up the land count after some more testing to see what exactly can be cut.
// Lands
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
// Creatures
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Progenitus
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Masticore
1 Magus of the Moon
// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Path to Exile
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Natural Order
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 2 Pyroblast
Wild Nacatl: More often then not comes down a 2/2 and become a 3/3 the next. Great turn 1 play can be Survivaled for really easy.
Flametongue Kavu: With Zoo and tribal decks becoming popular I feel FTK can make a come back. FTK can kill everything in Zoo (except Goyf and that depends on what is in the yard), tribal lords, and etc...
Loxodon Hierarch: I see the debate going on about him and Finks. I haven't tested Finks yet.
P2E: This could be STP.
Top: I might cut this down to 2. I seem to draw this and Natural Oreder like it's my job. I see both of them alot, like almost every game.
You should cut the masticore and a wild nactl for 2 more lands. Masticore is too slow in these days. Wild Nactl are fast, but 3 should be enough if you really prefer them. I honestly don't have any room for them though. You're not playing discard? How do you protect yourself from counters and discard?
Your only playing 18 lands.... Wow, the least I would run would be 21. Usually 22 and birds.
Cut the nacatls entirely for more land. Path is much better as swords in this deck because you really shouldn't care about their life total, and giving them a land can be very detrimental for this deck.
i think your deck could get away with 21 to 22 lands. I am very surprised you play only 1 eternal witness. One ftk is acceptable but i think the second could be better. changes i could see are :
-1 FTK
-1 Masticore
-1 Top
+3 Lands
and i personally like intrepid hero instead of FTK but thats meta dependent.
The other changes i could see happening is getting rid of the last two tops for two more witnesses... I think that E wit is very good.
Also, I like the Nacatl's, I play them too!
Thanks for the suggetions.
I was thinking of cutting:
-1 Pridemage
-1 Masticore
-1 Top
@Wild Nacatl: I'm keeping them for now. They add a good explosiveness to the deck and only cost G.
Still testing out my options here. Counters are always a pain in the ass. But right now I'm not seeing a ton of blue. At a larger tournament I'd probably up the Pyroblasts.Quote:
You're not playing discard? How do you protect yourself from counters and discard?
As far as discard I'm not really worried about it yet. I haven't seen anyone playing it in a while.
Again, discard in any normal metagame is the main thing this deck relies on. It's really not very good without discard.
do you ever take out discard against certain matchups?
Against random jank in local tournies, I sometimes side out therapies. But usually, I bring in more, because I play 2 or 3 duress in the board. It is just so damn strong.
If you're going to run RGW, run Aether Vial. If you can't assist Survival with discard, the best solution is to just run more broken game-winning permanents. And kick your Witness count up to four. Witness recursion helps make up for the fact that you can't knock counters out of their hand with discard, and Vial and Witness is ridiculous.
And make Path = STP.
Alternately, get Bayous and copy my list.:)
I'm open to critique's. I am in a transition phase. Basically it is a standard Black list but sub in aether vial ajani and nacatl for bop thoughtseize and cabal therapy.
Maindeck
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Bayou
4 Aether Vial
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Ajani Vengeant
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Acidic Slime
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Masticore
Sideboard
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
Current List
// Lands
1 Plains
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
// Creatures
1 Progenitus
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Ranger of Eos
// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Natural Order
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 2 Pyroblast
I have been thinking of putting vial in. I played with in Survival a while back and liked it.Quote:
And kick your Witness count up to four. Witness recursion helps make up for the fact that you can't knock counters out of their hand with discard, and Vial and Witness is ridiculous.
@Witness: At the most I would put it to 2. Getting stuff back is good, but as an attacker Witness sucks.
Why do I want to give my opponent life? Path fits the style of deck I want better then STP. Can you explain this?Quote:
And make Path = STP.
Umm. NO, just NO.Quote:
Alternately, get Bayous and copy my list.:)
@Guy I Don't Know: Interesting list. I don't sgree with the 2x Squee. There has got to be something better for that slot. 1 Squee is fine. Squee is pretty much a blank with out Survival.
I would also get some removal into the MD. Masticore isn't going to do the job. I just cut it from my list because everything I want to kill with it has an ass of 3 or higher.
How has Slime been for you? At CC 5 seems to be a bit high for what it does.
I still have no idea why you'd want not only one, but two FTKs. Seriously - I cannot think of any reason outside of the tribal match that they're worth it.
Have you been to a tournament as of late? Everything is Zoo, Elves, and Merfolk. Hell even the locals. The last one I was at there were 3 Zoo, 2 Elf Survival.Quote:
I still have no idea why you'd want not only one, but two FTKs. Seriously - I cannot think of any reason outside of the tribal match that they're worth it.
The only reason that I have 2 squee is that i don't know what else i want and having a squee with an aether vial is fun because it is like a maze of ith, also makes for a more explosive play when you have only one creature and play survival with say 5 lands. You can go play survival discard crit-->squee-->squee-->anger. Then next turn you can play rofellos and do a lot.
Masticore is in there because there are a lot elspeth in wonderland decks and he is good at getting rid of those tokens made from elspeth and decree. He is marginal and could be cut.
I agree with Path. You are playing an aggro deck and unless you use path on turn 1 or maybe 2 then it is irrelevant. There are few 4 mana spells people play compared to other formats.
Slime is very good against counter top and is decent verse a few other decks. It can blow up ruins in addition to troublesome art/enchantments and can block and trade with anything.
Looking at your list brushwagg, it seems similar but you are playing natural order over ajani. I wonder which one is better. I think I like natural order if it resolves but if they counter it, it seems like a beating. How does it play versus counters?
Swords is so much better in this deck. giving your opponent life really should'nt matter if you are playing the deck properly. Giving them a land can allow them to do more stuff against you.
Slime is pretty awesome. I had a deck like Brush's played against me and it+Woodfall Primus was totally nuts. Primus has synergy with NO and Therapy just like Finks. Primus also nails CB (although he costs a lot).Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
If they counter NO, Witness it. If they counter Witness, Genesis and try again. Or Therapy them. They'll run out of gas unless they have graveyard removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
EDIT: Didn't see Brush's lack of black, so skip the part about Therapy. I run black and Therapy.
So I give them life to buy them more time to play stuff aganist me? In playtesting the extra land hasn't been a problem at all.Quote:
Swords is so much better in this deck. giving your opponent life really should'nt matter if you are playing the deck properly. Giving them a land can allow them to do more stuff against you.
Look I'm not knocking STP. I run it in other decks, I just feel it doesn't fit this deck.
I love dropping Progenitus. As far as if it gets countered your out a birds or a Wild Nacatl. But in my playtesting so far most of the control decks are worried about the early beats and Survivals. This can lead to them not having an answer for the NO.Quote:
I think I like natural order if it resolves but if they counter it, it seems like a beating. How does it play versus counters?
I understand where you're coming from, but if you are trying to stabilize, giving them life is much better than giving them an extra land. Once you have stabilized, your opponents life total shouldn't matter at all as you are going to either have progs out, which ends the game, or you are going to be dropping a goyf or 2 every turn. Neither of these scenarios really careabout the other guys life. While giving them a land can allow them to have more resources to play their answers out. It's a small difference, but overall, through alot of my own personal testing, I've just found that swords is the better card more consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushwagg