Moat and humility work extremely well for me, hence why I run the new build...kind of a strange question to ask.
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Moat and humility work extremely well for me, hence why I run the new build...kind of a strange question to ask.
Yes it does :smile:. I'm not trying to convince everyone that DutchStax is 'the better stax' to play. Apparently this doesn't work for you, but as far as I can see, I think I wouldn't have had a problem with your meta (all matches are favourable to DutchStax except Enchantress and Landstill, but same goes for the traditional list). It's odd to see you find otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneBigSquirrelGod
About Suppression Field vs. Pithing Needle. In DutchStax this is no discussion. As we use less Armageddons, Pithing Needle wins from Suppression Field. In the traditional list, with 5 geddon effects, the balance shifts. I myself used Suppression Field back then, but wasn't a fan because it slowed down my Factories and Wastelands, and often people could still play the stuff they really needed. So I was hesitant to side them in.
looks like true. mb there should be even 2 different threads for these decks coz old stax is just a geddon.dec while dutch stax seems to be a next evolution of white control decks like rabid wombat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
anyway i can get only 1 moat so i play a classic version and have some questions about it:
should i play that moat as the 5th prison in main deck or in sideboard. against decks like goblins i need a prison as fast as i can get it so moat can help me not to mulligan into it. on the other hand 2WW cost can be difficult to pay in the early game. windborn muse is easier to cast but also its easier to kill, especially without field in play. sphere of law is good but doesnt stop piledrivers. what do u use as an additional answer for agrodecks?
also what do u side out against goblins? my usual choice is -smokestacks -chalices +fields +spheres of law/muses +4th magus. but i noticed i often win g1 and lose after sb, dunno why..
UPD: did u see this? http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22030
as far as I heard the japanese didn't win a single match in team play, this could be due to him not playing the deck good (you get to see him play a bit during semi's) or the deck being not being optimal (3 E tutors? say what?)
His list was quite bad, as he didn't play any card to actually use his early game disruption. What's a chalice and Trinisphere in play when you have nothing to actually lock your opponent or finish him off? I think playing at least 3 Smokestacks is crucial. I mean, if you do not run the full Staxx shell, then you have to play some other lock peaces such as moat, or additional beaters. 3 isn't enough for a deck that can hardly maintain a hardlock. Also he played like..eh really really bad.
And yeah, 4 Flagstones and only 4 Plains doesnt sound like a good plan either.
As far as I am concerned the Japanese completely surprised me with the fail that is the list I saw on deckcheck. The manabase looked so bad. Three dustbowls on top of four wastelands is overkill.
The manabase is honestly what made me cringe the most. The tutors with the presence of needing to CotV for one more often than you will be able to cast them seems like a really poor choice. Based off of what I saw in the other decklists, he would have had a nicer time rocking moats and humilities...
Like the other guys said; this must be the worst Stax list ever to be released into existence. There are precon decks better than that pile of shite.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
About running Moat in your maindeck next to 4 Ghostly Prisons; if you have a high aggro meta, I would advise to run it.
Agree @ the Moat comments. If you're expecting a lot of aggro the 5th prison effect is good. Stax can improve it's chances of winning significantly if you metagame right. This can be said about any deck, but Stax is a deck that plays cards specifically to disrupt the opponent, rather than win the game quickly.
@ the japanese stax deck
I dont think the japanese deck is a pile of shit. I think it focused more on the land destruction and taxing route more than the other stax lists. It could have also been that their metagame was floating with dual lands. The only thing I don't understand is having 3 magus of the tabernacles and 2 smokestack. Although he has 3 tutors main deck which could have replaced smokestack. Having soo few win conditions in the first game may pose a problem.
Im actually quite interested in testing enlightened tutors in the deck. Although it has been assumed very bad for the deck itself, it may however prove to help out in the long run.
Dust bowls were an interesting choice, I don't think its overkill at all. But I definitely wouldnt go to 3 dustbowls, I would probably go to 2..
@Flip, it is a terrible Stax list. Starting with the manabase:
4 Flagstones with only 4 Plains is bad because you usually won't have any Plains to fetch. 4 Waste + 3 Dust Bowl is overkill, you could try to replace your Wasteland with Bowl, but Waste is probably better in most cases.
No Factories, it's a decent blocker and win condition. Now he relies on Magus beatdown or outdecking his opponent (wich is not a good strategy).
3 Enlightened Tutor, one of Stax's strongest plays is T1 Chalice @1 because it disrupts so many decks. 3 ETutor means that you either have 3 dead cards (which is bad), or you won't set your Chalice @1 (not playing Chalice @1 is also stupid against most decks). There are very few cards with CMC 1 Stax wants to play, and ETutor is not one of them (I can only think of Pithing Needle or Goblin Welder).
The list is just terrible, and if you don't realise that you should test a decent list more often to become familiar with Stax' strenghts and weaknesses.
The mana base is indeed terrible in some ways, All I said, is that it wasn't a pile of shit. It focused on a different approach. I personally wouldn't run 4 flagstones as I have always felt comfortable with 3. I would have probably taken off 1 dustbowl and 1 flagstones and added 2 plains,which would have given him 6 plains to fetch with 3 flagstones.Horizon canopy I'm not sure about as I have never tested it at all but can always be replaced with more plains.
@factories
No factories? if you think they are essential to the deck, you are definitely wrong. They are decent blockers but aren't necessarily vital to the decks strategy. I have seen other more experienced players who don't play factories at all.
@ magus beat down
Magus beat down has actually won me a lot of games, a whole lot more than factory beat down won me any. I have always considered magus as a 4 of and never less. These can vary from player to player however.
As for the tutor, it has been dismissed so many times before, But If I were to run these, I would definitely not run 3. 2 pcs for testing sounds good enough. Yes it does have conflict with chalice at 1. But you also have to consider that you don't always have chalice or have it set at 1, and it won't always get through as you would like it to. Tutor although a little slow, would normally get what you need at a certain moment.
These are my points of view on the deck that took top 8,that nobody is willing to even look at its good points, or how it even got to top 8.The bad points are easy to spot,but you also have to learn to spot the good points. It maybe bad in a sense, but you can't just throw it out dismiss it as a pile of crap, as no matter what you say, it took top 8 in a major tournament and worked for the player.
If you want to take the old lists and not even dare to innovate or even have an open mind about a different approach. Go ahead.
As for you accusing me of not being able to play with a decent list or being familiar with stax's strengths and weaknesses. I have played this deck for a long time, even as it was being developed from angel stax to armageddon stax, I was already testing and building the deck. So don't go around accusing people of what they know and don't know. I know quite a lot about the deck down to its core. This deck is the type that you don't just pick up and play, it takes time and experience to learn and even be good at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollwarrior_666
I try to stay open minded all the time for tweaks and new options,even if it was dismissed before.
That deck is terrible and there is no point in defending it by saying it got into the final 4: this deck hasn't won any match in the tournament. It got this high because his teammates did very well in Standard and Extended.
There is also no point in arguing that a deck played by a top magic player is or should be considered 'terrible'. He was at a table playing what he obviousy considered to be a solid version, and no one else (short of him) can even come close to saying they played White Stax in the top 4 of the Team Worlds Competition (outside of side events).
He made a lot of non-standard choices - given. But the choices he made are not without foundation.
I have not persued the Moat/Humility/Elspeth deck because it a) doesn't fit my playstyle and b) would require me to buy a lot of overly expensive cards that does not fit with my current family plans (I am actually largely retiring from constructed and will be selling off my collection as time permits). The last deck that I was testing was close to this...
Lands (25)
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Plains
Creatures (3)
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
Enchantments (7)
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
Artifacts (19)
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
Sorceries (5)
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
Instants (1)
1 Enlightened Tutor
Sideboard (15)
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Powder Keg
3 Sphere of Law
2 Exalted Angel
The list is the basic Stax list that I have played since Lorwyn (Oblivion Ring) came out. I typically have 2 slots to play with and the build above fills them with 1x Oblivion Ring and 1x Enlightened Tutor. The sideboard contains generally decent cards and I metagame heavily with my board (I have stuff like Suppression Field, Guardian of the Guildpact, etc. sleeved and ready to go based on what I expect. I also have probably 7-10 versions saved on MWS that I can audible into for testing, etc.).
I tried 2 Enlightened Tutors main, but was never really comfortable with the second one. I rotated it in taking out 1x Magus, 1x Trinisphere, 1x Oblivion Ring, or 1x Smokestack. I just couldn't find room that I was comfortable with across the board. Suffice it to say, I was very happy with it as a 1-of and I absolutely HATE playing 1-ofs. I'm ok with it because Enlightened Tutor does not play like a 1-of in this deck, it's the 4th- or 5th-of for everything we play. I'm not going to going into great detail, but Chalice at 1 negating 1 card is well worth the risk to essentially play 5 Crucibles, let alone anything else.
To further comment on the Japanese build, I can see making a case for Dust Bowl in his build and in the World's Meta as well (that's not to say that I agree with the choice). I had overlooked my notes (used to generate the post on page 33) from when I tested Dust Bowl, but I concluded that a) it's not another Wasteland, b) it's only good with Crucible out, and c) simply put, it's inefficient compared to other options (i.e. Ravages). The way I tend to build... I start playing 4 copies... b) says I don't want this without another 4-of, so cut 1 down to 3 (odds say I'll get the other card first)... a) implies that I don't want to see it as often as Wasteland, so cut 1 down to 2... c) says play 0-1 (I choose 0 and go with a more 'stable' mana base). In Takakuwa's build, he plays '7' Crucibles and 4 Wasteland, so my a) and b) guidelines will result in playing a max of 3. I think the error is that Dust Bowl is just too inefficient for what it does. I'd be interested to hear how many times he actually activated it. My guess would be that the Japanese expected a legacy meta which relied on tight mana curves and lots of non-basic color-fixing.
These are just my basic thoughts on this. It's easy to prove that a list is different, but very difficult to prove a list is good/bad. I think f|i[p] has the right idea, try to learn from 'why' something is done. And then look to see why it does/doesn't work based on testing. Simple dismissal never results in innovation.
-FB...
yesterday i've played in an about 30 people legacy tourney and made top 8. i runned basic geddon stax with exalted angels but with 3 enlightened tutors sb apart from cards which were usually used. i decided it could be nice decision against two popular decks in my meta: goblins (i dont need chalices that much but i need prison as fast as i can) and naseaum tendrils (i need something like trinisphere or sphere of resistance very early and its always better to have multiple copies of such things). but i met neither goblins nor tes this time so i cant say a lot about efficiency of tutors yet.
btw i've beaten trinity, team america and sliver fish in swiss and then id'ed with dredge and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (positive mathups anyway) so got into top8 without any losses. then i started playing with team america again but was somehow repaired to the fear deck. first game was mine if i got one geddon in about 35 cards. but ok, i didnt. second game was made by 2 deeds. u know, nothing can help if u've let ur opponent resolve and sac 2 deeds.. so 0-2 and mb i should already add some needles to my sb. but what i'm absolutely sure about is that i must buy ravages of war as fast as i can get it. while geddon seems to be a main card of a traditional list i think it should be at least 5 of or mb even 6 of. during nearly all the games i played with stax i was waiting for geddon. and u know, some decks let u wait and some ones doesnt.
also what do u think about running 1-2 nomad stadiums? not needed very much mb but still nice sinergy with crucible which can help sometimes.
You need Threshold for Nomad Stadium. Not worth it. Horizon Canopy is way way better. On that note, 2 Horizon Canopy has been working out well for me. Seriously, it helps you find your lock pieces/Elspeth much faster. Play 2.
I really have no right posting this as I have never really tested this deck out (I lack quite a few cards from this list) but I have recently become interested in Stax in all of it's various incarnations. Please let me know what you think about this list.
I thought splashing green may be half decent as it allows access to Krosan Grip and Garruk. If Elspeth and Garruk get online I could see that spelling trouble for just about anyone. I am not sure about the sideboard at all.
G/W Stax
//Land// - 26
6x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Wasteland
4x Savannah
3x City of Traitors
1x Horizon Canopy
//Spells// - 34
4x Armageddon
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Ghostly Prison
2x Humility
2x Smokestack
1x Enlightened Tutor
//Sideboard// - 15
4x Exalted Angel - Maybe Tarmogoyf?
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Aura of Silence
1x Rule of Law
@Wereodile
Assuming, like you said, you haven't tested the deck, let me tell you that for White Stax, it's hard enough to get WW. I could understand a light splash for Green, but you're using Garruk? I highly doubt you can get to GG consistently. Unless you don't want to keep the deck mostly White Stax, I'd recommend cutting Garruk right away. With that said, considering the only other green card you run is Krosan Grip, I just think that you should cut Green altogether (don't cut Horizon Canopy, actually MD 2, they're good).
4 Wasteland is way overkill. You run Armageddon and you run Smokestack. 2-3 Wasteland should be fine.
If you're running Ghostly Prison, you should really complement it with Magus of the Tabernacle (and The Tabernacle), otherwise, you should just cut the Prisons for 3-4 Moat, which you should do since you're running Elspeth and I think the Moat+Humility+Elspeth plan is the way to go.
I don't know about you guys, but disregarding specific metagames, I think the Elspeth+Moat(+Humility) builds are the way to go. Elspeth, to date, has been the most efficient kill condition in white Stax I've ever seen. It's token ability which is awesome with Smokestack is alone enough to consider adding Elspeth. While Exalted ANgel has been one of the deck's premier kill conditions, it retained its spot only because it could realistically end the game soon quick enough to beat the time limit. Other than that, while not a bad card, EA doesn't really interact with the deck as much as Elspeth, and you need the interactions Elspeth has with the deck. Besides, Elspeth's pump ability can help end the game just as quick as Angel can. The fact that we already have access to Moat and Humility makes the addition of Elspeth even more fitting.
Here's a list that I've been working on ever since I got back home for Winter Break (last 2 days):
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Planeswalkers
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [P3] Ravages of War
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [LG] Moat
2 [4E] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
I don't want to bore anyone by explaining the obvious card choices, but regarding those obvious inclusions, I would like to talk about the numbers of those cards.
For example, traditionally, Stax builds run 3 City of Traitors. I used to follow suit, but I'm really firm that the deck wants to churn out Turn 1 Chalices/3Balls, so I think the 4th City is needed (as well as 4th 3ball for those of you who run 3).
I know I harped on this before, but 2 Horizon Canopy are an absolute must. For a deck like Stax that has two opponents (opponent himself, and the time limit), you can't rely on topdecking to find your win conditions, even if you aren't losing or you have a lock. Horizon Canopy gets you there, 'nuff said.
The sideboard is pretty experimental, but I've made some observations. I think 4 Defense Grid is a must against what I consider our worst matchups, any U-control deck. Plus, it complements your strategy against Threshold which is resolve either Chalice or 3Ball.
I used to run 4 Fields, but I think that's a little excessive as you don't need the off chance of landing 2 down. You're Stax, so even with just one Field, your deck can do the rest and lock the opponent. So I think 2-3 should be fine.
I think 3 Tormod's Crypt is just right. Against Ichorid, you have CotV, 3 BaLL, and freakin' Moat/Humility. You'll be fine with just 3.
I'm unsure of the rest. I have the 3rd Ring in sb because it seems like a safe call. I'm not sure of Aura/Powder Keg. These slots are the most questionable.
So, what do you guys think? Is this build a positive direction in the build of Stax?
Hey guys.
I've only recently started to get interest in the whole Geddon Stax deck. For starters to play around with, I've build up this list:
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Mishra’s Factory
7x Plains
3x Wasteland
3x Exalted Angel
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond
4x Smokestack
3x Trinisphere
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Armageddon
Sideboard:
3x Defense Grid
2x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Trinisphere
3x Aura of Silence
2x Rule of Law
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Before I start testing, do you guys see any errors in this list? Keep in mind I haven't tuned it at all, not to my meta or to my personal playing style, this is just a rough first draft. Any help would be really appreciated.
@Atwa:
If you're going on the Magus-Prison route, you want to up your Geddon count, that is, add 1 Ravages of War. Yeah, it's expensive IRL, but if you're playing on MWS, you want 5 Geddons. You could do 6, but prior experience recorded in the previous pages says that 5 is the best number for a Magus build. I'm a fan of the Elspeth build, but when I ran the Magus build, I considered Geddon the best card in the deck. It's your biggest bomb.
Past Magus builds ran 3 Smokestack. Nothing wrong with 4, but you might want 3, since your Prison strategy is your main strategy and you should make the space for that 4th Geddon.
Overall I'd make these changes:
-1 Smokestack
-1 Wasteland
+1 Ravages of War
+1 Horizon Canopy
Those are my sure changes. Consider a 4th 3Ball, or 4th Flagstones. Regardless, for either build, 2 Horizon Canopy = Win.