[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

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Originally Posted by Ewokslayer

They can only do that if you are counter the Meddling Mage and not destroying it. REB is a modal spell and the mode you choose when you play it can't be changed by Misdirection. So if you are destroying a blue permanent Misdirection has to find another blue permanent for the REB to target.

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Incidentally, you should probably never counter Meddling Mage with REB or Pyroblast. You should wait, just in case your opponent names something stupid (like the Blast in your hand :wink:)

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Originally Posted by jadawe

Does thresh run misdirection? I didn't know that.

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Thresh used to run a single MisD. Alas, Metas change and people realize cards suck. It's a purely hypothetical discussion anyway. The point was that there is no card in the game that is strictly better than any other (although there are some that are strictly better in certain matchups.) It's a misused term.

Misdirection is still seen in Faerie Stompy boards

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Originally Posted by T is for TOOL

Too many people have a habit of throwing around the term 'strictly' when it doesn't apply. When a card is 'strictly' better than another, it means that the first card is better than the second in all possible game situations. To disprove that the first card is strictly better, you only need to show a single gamestate where the second card would be better. Here is one:

Your opponent is tapped out and has a Meddling Mage on the board and a Misdirection in hand. You target the Mage with Pyroblast, and your opponent Misdirects it to an Island. If you had played a Red Elemental Blast instead, you would have successfully destroyed the Mage. In this situation, REB is better than Pyroblast, therefore Pyroblast is not 'strictly' better than REB.

If you insisted on running Mono-U removal, wouldn't Pognify be better than Psionic Blast?

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That's incorrect.

As an example; Lightning Bolt is not strictly better than Shock, because if I'm at 3 life and my opponent is playing Misdirection, Bolt kills me and Shock doesn't.

"Strictly better" means that in all plausible situations, one card is better than another. This is fairly vague, since Duals are often consider strictly better than basic lands, although Wasteland is a relatively common problem.

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Originally Posted by Ewokslayer

I don't think the manabase can truly handle a second splash without either destabilizing the manabase or making it difficult to reliably get the necessary color at the correct time.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

The manabase need not be any riskier to do so. Instead of 6 Fetchlands and 2 Volcanics, The deck could run 7 Fetchlands, 1 Volcanic, and 1 Tropical. This leaves the number of ways to hit a splash color still at 8, while leaving the total dual count at 2 for matches where you want nothing but basic islands.

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How exactly, given that you never ever need two of a given color except for Starstorm, does this destabilize the manabase?

(EDIT:) There's far too much "X is better than Y" or "X isn't worth it" or "X isn't a good idea" without any sort of reasoning behind it for a DTB thread.

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The manabase need not be any riskier to do so. Instead of 6 Fetchlands and 2 Volcanics, The deck could run 7 Fetchlands, 1 Volcanic, and 1 Tropical. This leaves the number of ways to hit a splash color still at 8, while leaving the total dual count at 2 for matches where you want nothing but basic islands.

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Have you considered the effect that an extra Fetchland will have on your life total in aggro matchups? Against decks packing stifle?
In my post I was trying to express my concern about the scenario where you need access to one color but you already have the other dual in your hand or in play. (i.e. the only lands you draw during the early game are Island, Fetch, Trop)Now you are forced to fetch for the Volcanic and can get totally owned by wasteland because you are forced to put both duals in play (generally you can't be that picky about what lands you play) Where as with only a single splash you would have been able to fetch for a basic.

Hopefully that makes sense, because it did in my head.

Additionally, fighting through countermagic to bounce Artifacts and Enchantments tends to be less of an issue due to the types of decks that play them. You should be able to outcounter Faerie Stompy as you have more counterspells and more draw. The same can't be said of decks packing Meddling Mage.

I am liking the idea of Pongify more and more in place of a red splash.
Who cares if it can be countered? You are turning something into a "damned dirty ape!"

Ok, so the ability to quote Charlton Heston movies probably isn't a good reason for card choices.

I'm sorry to change the subject a bit, but i really have to know this.

I'm having trouble deciding what to board out against various matchups. It is really hard to decide what cards will not be as effective in the upcoming games, especially because I don't always know what they will side in.

In other words: Would anyone be kind enough to list a few board strategys against the tier 1/2 decks?

It is hard to provide exact board plans as the board is in constant flux.
Additionally, the board plan depends on how you play the deck, how your opponent plays their deck, and what you think they might bring in.

Usually things that get boarded out.
Goblins
Out
Think Twice
Brain Freeze (1 copy)
In
Hydroblast, Bounce

Gro
Out
Remand
Meditate
In
Bounce
Twincast
Red spell if going with splash

Mirror
Out
usually something different everytime depending on my opponent and if I won game one (I usually do)
Reset
High Tide
Meditate
In
Twincast
Turnabout
Brainfreeze (other people like that alot)
Stifle (damn that was a fun tournament when I had that in the board,
Gearhart: Fetch
Me: Stifle
Gearhart: Crap
Me: Abeyance me now bitch.)

Alright thanks alot already.

How should i board vs landstill?

Landstill (u/w) traditionally boarded in Arcane Lab/Rule of Law and Meddling Mage
So
In
Bounce
Twincast
Brainfreeze (depending see below)
Red spell if available (If you know for a fact that they have Arcane Lab and not Rule of Law you can probably replace your bounce with REB.
Out
I would imagine
Remand (I don't know for certain since I don't think I have played against landstill since Remand became legal.) If you expect Blessing or Stifles (another Landstill favorite) then I would leave a few in.
Brainfreeze (only 1) (it appears on both in and out because I feel it comes down to how aggressive you are going to be, how aggressive the Landstill player will be, the presence of Stifle
1 Turnabout or so
and probably
some amount of opt.

If they go with the new Duck Hunt (U/B) Man Plan (4 Flesh Reavers, 4 Dandan) then obviously slowing your deck down is the last thing you want to do so I would probably replace the think twices with twincasts and a cunning wish with a turnabout or meditate.

well thanks again :smile:

I just remembered i read some SB strategy here a while ago on how to board against ***** involving boarding out 2 Reset, how about that 1? (If you knwo what I am talking about)

Also boarding in 1 bounce spell seems kinda useless to me. Or do you board in 2, so you can't wish any?

The generally policy is to board in one bounce spell and leave the other in board to wish for. That way if your opponent's plan is to stop Wish (i.e. they have a mage on High Tide and Wish) you still can win.

I don't recall ever reading about boarding out Reset against Threshold. I would only do that if I am replacing at least one of the Resets with Turnabout because I expected to be forced to go off in my own turn. Threshold usually can't do that. I only really expect to have to combo in my turn in the mirror and against good burn players. And control players that tap out because they don't think you can do it.

OK, lots of stuf to talk about.

I usually board the following for Landstill; -1 Turnabout, -1 Remand, - Reset, -1 Force of Will, for +3 Twincast, +1 Echoing Truth. That was how I boarded against Scott when we did a little post board Duck Hunt testing (which ended 3-3 and me being exhausted). Against Landstill with Mage, I would board out one Brain Freeze for the Rage too.

@Ewokslayer: You're a big ol' sack of Jerk. GodDAMN that pissed me off. Whatever, I guess that helped me to play around Stifle or some such bullshit.

@Tacosnape: That's a really intriguing idea. I tell you what, give me a bit of time to find a board that I like (that still has 'blasts) and I'll tell you what I think of the dual color splash. Honestly, I hadn't thought to take it so far, but there might be another advantage in doing so. Although, 7 fetches is going to be a bitch.


@JZ23: Actually, with the larger amount of 2 drops, missing the more difficult third land is less likely. Two lands are easy, it's the third that's difficult.

EDIT: Sorry Jodawe, I as mistaking your list for Jamest's list where he only has a single Freeze and sometimes swaps it out for a maindeck Twincast. Weird, usually I don't do that. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Ewokslayer

Have you considered the effect that an extra Fetchland will have on your life total in aggro matchups? Against decks packing stifle?
In my post I was trying to express my concern about the scenario where you need access to one color but you already have the other dual in your hand or in play. (i.e. the only lands you draw during the early game are Island, Fetch, Trop)Now you are forced to fetch for the Volcanic and can get totally owned by wasteland because you are forced to put both duals in play (generally you can't be that picky about what lands you play) Where as with only a single splash you would have been able to fetch for a basic.

Hopefully that makes sense, because it did in my head.

Additionally, fighting through countermagic to bounce Artifacts and Enchantments tends to be less of an issue due to the types of decks that play them. You should be able to outcounter Faerie Stompy as you have more counterspells and more draw. The same can't be said of decks packing Meddling Mage.

I am liking the idea of Pongify more and more in place of a red splash.
Who cares if it can be countered? You are turning something into a "damned dirty ape!"

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1. I have considered the effect the extra fetchland will have. You could also make this argument between the standard six and, say, five. More fetchlands obviously weakens you against Stifle and lowers your life total a little faster, but it also makes Brainstorm deadlier, gives you extra chance early to get two lands down for Remand against things like Sinkhole and Vindicate, and reduces your chances of Meditating into 2-3 lands mid-combo. I actually run seven in my real build (Mono-blue). Stifle has wrecked me a couple of times, granted.

2. If you're facing something with Wasteland, you simply don't fetch the dual ever, unless it's life or death. You're still running the same number of duals in the deck (2). Therefore, if the Tropical wasn't in the deck, the same opening hand you quoted would now be Island, Fetch, Volcanic, and four other cards. In both cases if you're dodging wasteland, you can use the fetch for a basic Island, and you still have the problematic one dual in hand. Also, in both cases where they pack Wasteland (And you weren't aware of it), you're no worse off for fetching that dual unless they've got two Wastelands. You're still going to only get two of those three lands down in both scenarios. Even against Fish decks packing both Meddling Mage -and- Wasteland, You still have to set that Volcanic on the table to kill the mage, so again, unless they catch -double- wasteland, having that Tropical out isn't going to hurt you.

3. You can outcounter and outdraw Faerie Stompy, but you don't always have a lot of time to do so. Again, decks like FS are going to simply start countering the Cunning Wishes, but this is a good thing, as it makes a pre-emptive Cunning Wish draw out a counter (IE, Cunning Wishing when they have no Chalice. Either they counter it, or you grab Krosan Grip or a combo piece. And if you want to force that Counter out no matter what, you can grab Determined also.)

Imagine the following scenario. You're on the play. It's Faerie Stompy's turn, Turn 3. They have a Sea Drake, a Sea Sprite, and a Chrome Mox on the board. You're at 17 (2 fetches, one tag from the Sea Sprite.) Faerie Stompy swings in for 5, knocking you to 12. They then drop a freshly-topdecked Trinket Mage, fetching Chalice of the Void, which they will play next turn. They pass. You suspect they're holding a Force, or at least bluffing at it. You cast Cunning Wish EOT.

FS, assuming it has the Force and isn't bluffing it, can now either counter the Cunning Wish or allow you to get Krosan Grip for the Chalice. If they counter the Wish, you untap, play your land, and hopefully combo off on their face in response to the inevitable Chalice. If not, you take your beating, Grip the Chalice on their next end step, and have another turn (and hopefully 5 lands) with which to work around their counter.

Now, if they hesitate and don't play that Trinket Mage, but have an expression like they -could- play something if they weren't going to hold it back for a Force, you can do the same thing. Cunning Wish. If they counter it, dandy, one less counter. If not, you can grab Determined. Untap, play your land, pass. Before their next combat step, play Determined whether you're holding Tide+Reset or not. If they have a counter, they'll almost have to use it. The difference between using it and not using it is that if they don't use it, you get an extra card. Assuming they counter it, you can then either try and go off or wait until their next turn, depending on the situation and your hand.

The difference between Determined and Twincast in this situation is that Determined aggresively rips counters out of their hand whereas Twincast only assists in the counterwar while they're using the counters, which means you've played something else. It's possible to cast Determined, bait a Force, and then wait a turn to go off.

4. I agree. I'm going to try Pongify in my build, especially since Glowrider's picked up in popularity lately. I'm mostly arguing this green thing in hypotheticals and I prefer to stay blue thus far.

EDIT: This has almost nothing to do with the above, but I find that a Brain Freeze in board is almost never necessary, though this could be because I run three main. I find that Freeze is often my top choice to pitch to Force (though not always), which makes it available as a Cunning Wish target.

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@Jodawe: If you board out all of your copies of Freeze, you have no outs if you lose all your Wishes.

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I don't board out my freezes. I seem to be getting misquoted a lot.

So with all these new modifications what turn do you usually combo out vs thresh? What about goblins?

Pyroblast targets nearly all of faerie stompy's creatures. Turn one sea drake isn't so scary when you play turn one blast.

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I don't board out my freezes. I seem to be getting misquoted a lot.

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Sorry that was my fault. I meant jamest in my earlier post and I corrected it.

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2. If you're facing something with Wasteland, you simply don't fetch the dual ever, unless it's life or death. You're still running the same number of duals in the deck (2). Therefore, if the Tropical wasn't in the deck, the same opening hand you quoted would now be Island, Fetch, Volcanic, and four other cards. In both cases if you're dodging wasteland, you can use the fetch for a basic Island, and you still have the problematic one dual in hand. Also, in both cases where they pack Wasteland (And you weren't aware of it), you're no worse off for fetching that dual unless they've got two Wastelands. You're still going to only get two of those three lands down in both scenarios. Even against Fish decks packing both Meddling Mage -and- Wasteland, You still have to set that Volcanic on the table to kill the mage, so again, unless they catch -double- wasteland, having that Tropical out isn't going to hurt you.

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You can't use the fetch for a basic if you have need the red mana for something and you have the trop in your hand.
It is probably a minor point but a factor nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Ewokslayer

You can't use the fetch for a basic if you have need the red mana for something and you have the trop in your hand.
It is probably a minor point but a factor nonetheless.

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That's very true. Fortunately, however, except for Fish, you either won't need the red (or green if the situation's reversed) or won't be worrying about Wasteland (Assuming you run an Artifact hitter besides Grip, either RnR or Rebuild). And again, fetching the red won't hurt until they double wasteland you. Which would, of course, just suck fantastically.

Ok. So I've been testing the new build yesterday.

Think twice is a bit of a mixed blessing. On the one hand it shines against discard of all sorts. On the other hand when I need to go off fast it's a real pain in the ass. I am convinced that peek wouldn't be much better in said situations but I am really thinking of leaving the lone twincast in.
The fact of not having brainfreeze in the sideboard is also something that hurts. I think I can get passed that by adapting my play style but we'll see in future testing.
The main part of my testing was against a red deck (championship deck finals '98 or '99 from Ben Rubin I believe), and the results were not very well. Since the deck kills on turn 4 most of the time, things needed to go fast and didn't. I think that the speed loss really is significant. There was also the little matter of bad draws which screwed up quite some games. I am not saying it's a bad match up, my point is that in above situation you need more speed.
What are the test results against aggro-control? Is there a significant improval? Does the improved ratio stand when they know what they are facing? In effect that they have to counter the cunninng wish?

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Originally Posted by Reagens

Ok. So I've been testing the new build yesterday.

Think twice is a bit of a mixed blessing. On the one hand it shines against discard of all sorts. On the other hand when I need to go off fast it's a real pain in the ass. I am convinced that peek wouldn't be much better in said situations but I am really thinking of leaving the lone twincast in.
The fact of not having brainfreeze in the sideboard is also something that hurts. I think I can get passed that by adapting my play style but we'll see in future testing.
The main part of my testing was against a red deck (championship deck finals '98 or '99 from Ben Rubin I believe), and the results were not very well. Since the deck kills on turn 4 most of the time, things needed to go fast and didn't. I think that the speed loss really is significant. There was also the little matter of bad draws which screwed up quite some games. I am not saying it's a bad match up, my point is that in above situation you need more speed.
What are the test results against aggro-control? Is there a significant improval? Does the improved ratio stand when they know what they are facing? In effect that they have to counter the cunninng wish?

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Are you not drawing Force/Remand? Against the faster decks, you're supposed to control, not race. With Think Twice, you can recover from Forces so be a little more aggressive with the Forces. Also, were you not playing 'blasts or something? I've done my share of testing against Sligh type decks and found that I'm still ahead (though not by a wide margin).

Anyway, the plan against Threshold, is to build up a lethal 8-10 card hand (effectively speaking, by holding Flashes in the 'yard and using think Twice to put you to 8) that allows you to beat whatever they have. Usually, this is accomplished turn 7, maybe later given draws and such. Anyway, the testing results have DEFINITELY been improved and I'm exceedingly happy with the results. Yes, even with the knowledge of the splash, it's still effective. You can't really play around uncounterability y'know.

I'm sorry, but i found 2 more decks I'm not sure how to board against

Vs. artifact based decks like stax or affinity, what do i board?

And vs. tendrils combo, i side out my think twices for twincasts. Is that the right thing to do?

Against both decks a bounce spell is usually boarded in for Chalice/3 sphere in case of Stax and for swarm/ Defense Grid/ ETW for Tendrils.
For something like affinity I would think a possibilty would be to board in Turnabout, Meditate, and Twincast for the Think Twices and a Wish or two, as a way to speed up the deck. But that is just a non-tested idea.
Generally, Affinity doesn't require too much in terms of boarding.