Grip also deals with humility, cow, survival, ... without any action of the opponent its not the one trick pony you seem to see it like.
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Grip also deals with humility, cow, survival, ... without any action of the opponent its not the one trick pony you seem to see it like.
That's what I'm doing right now as well :smile: ...not sure about it, apart from counters Split Second is also very useful against Relic(!), Vial, Jitte, Survival etc. But having more cards against Aggro, as well as a card that can handle CBalance and Coatl, might be worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-ucard
I'm glad that other people start to like discard as well :smile: but I don't agree with the analysis. For me, discard makes the deck more aggressive than Chalice, not only because of its cost, but also because an early Chalice gets better the longer the game goes, improving your control of the game, while an early Thoughtseize doesn't. If I start with one or two discard spells, I want to end the game rather sooner than later, before my opponent draws replacements for the answers I took away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
If you were talking about Raven's Crime and not Thoughtseize/Duress, just disregard my comment.
Just mentioning: I'm currently trying to play both spot discard (as a 5-of) and Chalice (as a 3-of) in the main. I'm not hundred percent sure, but in most games I've played so far it works, i.e. the dis-synergy between them doesn't really matter - unless you open Diamond + Chalice + Seize/Duress (which is only a 6% chance), you'll play your discard first, and if you topdeck discard later than turn four, there's a good chance your opponent has no good targets for it left anyway. The exception to this is the control matchup, where you often DO want to play discard after turn four or five.
I played discard last weekend at Eli's tournament and I didn't like it. I lost games that I should have won because my opponent was able to cast 1cc spells. I didn't like it, but I do like Shusher + Chalice combo main deck, it's hawt sauce.
Vial seems a bit wild for my taste: I prefer running cards that perform an independant function(if that makes sense). If people are dealing with a lot of permission and three casting cost heavy CB decks, then it makes sense to run them, but I haven't really had the desire to anyway. Considering that you will need them to be ramped up to two or three, wouldn't four be more ideal than three? Having one dropped as early as possible also allows for more robust plays earlier too...I suppose that is somewhat obvious though.
I know a few people that basically consider a card with three copies to something that is drawn by the second turn or so, which I consider to be quite a fallacy because there is a 31, 35 and 39 percent chance respectively that it will be drawn within the first turn, which are shitty odds for a card that you want to see early enough to be dropping crushers with it in a timely fashion. A counter-proof crusher is not very attractive to me at all.
With the fear of the rise of CB and permission that brings me to something that I have been wondering about: I read about a discard-heavy build in an SCG article that is seeing play in France(I think). It focuses on raven's crime hand rape and invetitability/control game rather than the typical midrange/disruption+bullets game that many RGb builds seem to go with. The former strategy strikes me as one that would be very effective against decks like merfolk, CB and other such decks that tend to panic if they get forced into the later part of the game in topdeck mode.
I plan on trying the build myself, so I'l have some of my own info soon if anyone is curious about it too, but I was wondering if anyone has already tried it for themselves and dismissed it or has fallen in love.
I have to agree with Mordel on the vial issue, I don't think it's worth it in aggro loam.
For the protection it offers vs counters I think Shusher is a very interesting card. Certainly a card that should be considered main deck in a CB heavy environment.
Playing discard vs chalice is tempting but personally I still like chalice more. The thing is that once chalice is in play your opponent is obliged to remove it before he can play 1CC cards (removal or otherwise).
Early game this means your opponent has to change gameplan/loses a turn at least (ofcourse this depends alot on the deck your facing).
Playing discard is also more maindeck slot consuming 6-8(discard) vs 4 (chalice).
I can certainly also see the benefits of discard being able to disrupt entire hands with raven's crime/thoughtseize and in particular the insight it offers on your opponents game situation, but at the end I think its a choice that depends alot from personal preference and metagame.
I've played aggro loam with 5-7 discard and I'm not so sure I enjoyed it. I like chalice because it does what you need to be done in 4 slots instead of 6/7. I also like ravens crime but last week I raven's crimed my opponent to zero on turn 4, but he was able to cantrip to a board position of cb, top, 2x relic of progenitus in about 4 turns. Not so hot, while I was stuck trying to keep playing ravens crime, only problem was that he was drawing and playing cards same turn so I was doing nothing. I think chalice is what I'll go with personally. I think both strategies are fine, but chalice + shusher as I mentioned is hot, as well as allowing 3/4 more md slots for other things I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Sure. 2 Progenitus...
Maybe he meant Relic?
True story.Quote:
Originally Posted by leander?
People seem to be confusing the deck I described with loam that just has discard slapped in it, which it is not. I thought people would have been familiar with the build already because there was a decent article written with it in it.
Here is my slight variation on the list:
The sideboard needs a bit of tuning, but I played a few matches with it yesterday and it was pretty good. I destroyed UGw cb deck 2-1, a UW vial fish(not, merfolk)2-0, UWgb landstill 2-0(!!!! unexpected for me) and 2-0'd a d&t deck despite maindeck canonists, cloakers and grunts and crypts in the sideboard. I got three S:PLs, but those aren't matches, but it has been encouraging so far.Quote:
// Lands
3 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [EVG] Forgotten Cave
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Taiga
1 [PT] Forest (4)
1 [R] Swamp (3)
1 [MM] Mountain (1)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
2 [7E] Duress
2 [EVE] Raven's Crime
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TO] Devastating Dreams
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 3 [FNM] Terminate
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [LRW] Primal Command
I think a lot of what sets this build apart from normal aggro loam builds is pretty obvious in regards to strategy, but something that I am really liking about it is the autonomy that it can have from more average loam builds from dependence on having a great deal of lands in the graveyard and only pausing when hate needs to get played around. In several of the matches above, I stopped loaming every turn and took it easy thanks to them playing off the top of their decks and worm harvest being plenty effective with eight tokens two turns in a row. Turning creatures sideways are still obviously a primary means of winning, but it isn't a question of basically stopping the creatures and neutralizing the occasional S.A. With this build, opponents having to play off of the top of their deck has been pretty common so far and W.Harvest has been an absurd surprise victory card. The final game of the match against Landstill was squarely on the back of a recurring w.harvest once he started to stabilize after removing my raven's a few turns earlier.
Spare me explanations as to why chalice is good because I have used it plenty in aggro loam and plenty more in other decks. I understand why it is good and in the same token, I understand why it is utterly useless in some difficult matches.
I'm not saying that the build above is better than the normal builds, I am just trying to get some new ideas going. Discussions surrounding the more or less standard builds of GBr aggro loam seem to be pretty cyclical/stagnant right now, so even though the above list may or may not be better than normal builds, maybe it will lead to some innovation or something like that.
:really: or you could play just 4 discard spells instead of 6-8...why would you automatically need to run more discard than Chalices ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia_Bot
Exactly, this version of the deck plays different that the chalice versions. The fact that this version have a lot of discard and 3 devastating MD is self explanatory. This decks wants to play a guy, resolve a devastating and meanwhile opponent try to recover rape its hand, and all know that discard and mana negation is near to GG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Exactly, Al.
I didn't make the deck or anything and I am pretty new to the build, but right now, with the way I am playing it, my strategy is centered around disrupting my opponent severely and sneaking a creature out in between the disruption.
To the best of my understanding, normal aggro loam decks tend to focus on getting a creature out, and disrupting an opponent long enough for the creature to end the game.
The difference might seem subtle with how I described it, but I feel a lot less vulnerable so far when playing this build because my strategy isn't as reliant on getting an engine online and making a creature as big as possible, it's centered on raping my opponent's resources and finishing things off with creature, but with the presence of goyfs and crushers, you can always do things in reverse order too. An engine is still created with loam and raven's obviously, but the engine protects itself basically when raven's crime is throw into the mix.
The build really caters to the type of strategy that I have the highest amount of comfort/familiarity with, so I am am obviously biased in regards to explaining the strategy. One of the clear drawbacks is that it can't drop an opponent as fast as normal builds and matches like goblins are more difficult for me since they tend to not be affected by dicard once things are set up, which happens pretty fast.
well, you want to play 2 ravens crime and X duress,thoughtseizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
but I feel that if you would only play 2-2 you lack a very important synergy between the "targeted" hand disrupion and the raven's crime engine. you want a targeted hand disruption card first or 2nd turn (therefor 4+) and 3rd, 4th turn a ravens crime (2+4 burning wish if needed ofc :smile: )
You could ofc just play 4 thoughtseize and 1 raven's crime in sideboard but then again I think its better to play 2 more maindeck crimes to maintain a good engine.
This is why I'll put in my side some firespout or jund charm, with 3 devastating MD and firespout or charm, we improve a lot 2nd and 3rd match. Maybe charm is better since we already have devastating in side. Thoughts?Quote:
One of the clear drawbacks is that it can't drop an opponent as fast as normal builds and matches like goblins are more difficult for me since they tend to not be affected by dicard once things are set up, which happens pretty fast.
Another match I fear is combo, this is why I think that I'll play 4 Thorn of Amethyst in side.
What do you think about the 2 duress MD? I think I will test Maelstrom pulse instead against random junk...
So no where we discuss a list without chalice, there is no reason why not running Gamble anymore.
Check out this list and tell me what you think:
//NAME: aggroloam
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Taiga
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
_____
25
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
3 Life from the Loam
3 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Devastating Dreams
4 Thoughtseize
1 Raven’s Crime
1 Duress
3 Gamble
_____
36
// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Raven’s Crime
I cut Dark confidant since he seem to do the same as Gamble does, but it does it much faste. Gamble is also great with the 1-offs. Get the witness, if you got the stronghold, get stronghold, simply get loam oder any situational card. It's quite untestet but I'll definetly give this a shot.
Edit: One more reason why i cut Confidant is because Thoughtseize+Confidant=anti combo :/
Cutting confidant is a bad plan. The deck has no means of raw CA other than loam. Being able to win despite graveyard hate is awesome, as is rebuilding quickly after a crypt/relic.
Gamble helps rebuilding even faster.
Ok, I understand cutting chalice. And I can appreciate the added discard. And while I would not agree, I can understand the reasoning for wanting to remove Dark Confidant.
What I don't understand is why anyone would cut Seismic Assault? The synergy between that and Life from the Loam is just too great to ignore. Not to mention the tricks you can pull with SA and Countryside Crusher. There is just too much fun to be had with that enchantment not to run it. I think cutting Seismic is a big mistake.
Yeah. Assault is the card I really don't know whether its ok to cut or not. In times were Qasali Pridemage is in a lot of decks it might be the right call tho...
Now where the list doesn't play confis anymore Tombstalker comes in my mind. Dredge+Delve=Fun
Btw Synergie of Assault/Crusher is equal to raven's crime crusher. :)