I dont understand how with only 4 duress you win vs blue, could you explains the gameplan?
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I dont understand how with only 4 duress you win vs blue, could you explains the gameplan?
With the overload of cantrips and tutors to find mana and bombs, he plans on exhausting the opponent's countermagic. Difficult to imagine and do, but with his experience, he pulls it off.
Hey guys. I've just finished reading this thread from the beginning and followed the evolution of the deck closely. Props to emidln and everyone else for designing such a cool deck. I've decided to move to a straight Doomsday list. Being a Solidarity player, I love the challenge this deck presents and how it rewards better players with more frequent wins. The meta I will be playing this deck in is something like 10-15% UGr Canadian Thresh, 10-15% Dredge and 10-15% combo and a lot of random, with a strong lack of Counterbalance (read: zero). This is the list I am considering:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Doomsday
3 Ponder
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Meditate
SB:
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Infernal Tutor
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Serenity
1 Rebuild
3 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Grapeshot
I chose a 3-color manabase with many basics to have an even more favorable UGr Canadian Threshold matchup. The lack of Couterbalance in the meta leads to no need for green or red splash. Most of the slots of the deck are pretty self-explanatory. The Echoing Truth is great against dredge and helpful versus aggro, and the other 8 protection spells are traditional. I would not mind to play the 4th Ponder, but wanted to squeeze the two Infernal Tutors and the supplementary speed package in the SB against faster decks.
Do you have any suggestions or improvements I should consider?
I'd suggest playing Rain of Filth in the main over cabal ritual. It's not amazing off IGG, but it will win you the game a lot while being amazing in matchups like tempo thresh where your basics normally hurt as much as they help. I'd probably cut the 2nd basic swamp for something else too, either Scrubland or Tundra from an initial look at your manabase. The 2nd swamp isn't all that good at casting anything and against tempo thresh and landstill you're somthing lacking in the white mana department if you have to play multiple chants in a single turn.
Your sideboard needs to cut roughly 2 Extirpate. Extirpate is a card that you never want to see multiples of, and a card that's usually worse than Orim's Chant, even in the matchups where it's good. One is fine to have (and will win games where your blow your opponent off something like Force, Counterspell, or Chant), but those extras clog your hand. I'd probably also reconsider some of the Cabal Rits in favor of Lotus Petal in the sideboard, since you tend to bring them in against stuff like discard that will also have an active mana denial plan with stuff other than Wasteland (port from goblins, sinkhole/vindicate from sui-esque decks).
I agree with your suggestions from the first paragraph completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
About Extirpate - I noticed in the latter posts in this thread you mentioning that 2 Extirpate are never bad to have in the sideboard. While I agree with the fact that multiples are not wanted nor needed in most cases, I wanted to have something against Dredge. Do you have any other suggestions for the two potential slots? I considered playing Brain Freeze briefly, but dismissed it.
I will also reconsider lotus petals as sideboard acceleration.
Thank you for your prompt answer.
In a few weeks I'll be going to 8 chant/silence between main and sideboard. I don't think any more help with the ichorid matchup is necessary. They can't really beat you if they can't cast Therapy/Dread Return.
@ Waikiki
The basic idea when playing with Duress + SDT is that you can overwhelm an opponent and find small openings. Consider this hand:
Force of Will, Stifle, Fire/Ice, Volcanic Island, Daze
If you Duress your opponent and see this, don't despair! In my list there is an easy fix and that's to cast Ad Nauseam. Force of Will is taken care of by Duress and Ad Nauseam can deal with the Stifle/Daze problem. This may not be the ideal way to go off, but if I get to draw roughly 20 cards, my opponent's soft counters don't matter.
If you spin it the other way, say an opponent has something like this:
Force of Will, Force of Will, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt.
This isn't actually very difficult to play through. If you duress any blue card you have to play around a maximum of one counterspell. This means all of the usual tricks apply. Doing things like stacking another bomb on top of your library for use with SDT or a Brainstorm by means of a cantrip or mystical tutor will easily win the game. You probably want to win with Doomsday here (due to Bolt) if you've taken any damage, but this isn't all that difficult to setup, especially considering you can still filter additional Mystical tutors and Burning Wishes into either more duress/thoughtseize or doomsday/tendrils.
If you're going off without Duress, you just need to have some mana and a good backup plan or two. Having a SDT never hurts (or two if you're lucky) since it extends your hand and lets you cast spells post-LED. Burning Wish is really strong because it lets you filter into either bombs or Thoughtseize to see what you're up against. Finally, some measure of speed does make up for a lack of protection. I won at least two matchups by going for it after an opponent did something like Stifle my turn 1 fetchland or Daze a turn 1 Brainstorm using either Ad Nauseam or a pass the turn Doomsday pile. The situations don't come along often, and most opponents don't expect to need to deal with two problems turn one so it's strong if you can do it.
Also, I did board in 4 Orim's Chants for games 2 and 3, and they help out a lot against tempo thresh (although I did win every game one I played against that deck).
Some basic advice on piloting a bomb/mana-heavy tendrils deck:
(1) don't get rattled. Most combo players lose because they get confused outside of common, generic situations that they can read about some pro talking about in his 9 paragraph article. The first time you Duress an opponent and see 3x Force of Will doesn't have to be a game loss. This is especially important when you need to exploit the most overlooked part of Tendrils combo: recovery. Tendrils decks outside of straight Doomsday will rarely be able to go an entire tournament fully protected every combo attempt. This means that you're probably going to get something you didn't expect countered and you'll be sitting with a pile of mana and nothing to do with it. While this can sometimes be prevented with a good backup, plans don't always work out (or you could be getting your backup plan countered). Sometimes you'll be playing draw/go until you reassemble a hand. It's important to be as aggressive as possible when recovering because, while you probably do have an opening, it's going to be really small and it may require an opponent to make a mistake. Magic pros and poker players refer to this as playing to your outs, and it's especially important for combo players since our decks are so explosive.
(2) don't overextend. This is a big deal with creature decks in formats that have known-mass removal spells. While we're not afraid of getting X for 1'd by Wrath of God (at least not usually, sometimes I discount ETW), getting 3 or 4 for 1'd on a Spell Snare is about the worst feeling in the world. Sometimes, just like with creatures in a draft deck, we can't avoid this due to needing hellbent, LED, or simply needing mana to play through possible soft counters (like Daze). This has a side effect of keeping up your hand size so your opponent is left guessing as to what you might have left in the tank. There are a lot of situations where getting something like Dark Ritual, Doomsday is perfectly okay for you and the correct play is to simply pass the turn and try with Burning Wish/Mystical Tutor/Infernal Tutor later. if you extend, your ability to continue playing is vastly limited.
(3) maximize your cantrips because they're not as plentiful as they seem. I see this line of play all the time:
SDT, Brainstorm, Fetch, Fetch, card, card, card
Invariably the combo player plays SDT, go and the tops on their upkeep. There are very few reasons to do this (Standstill being in play is one of them) since you'll get the most use out of your Brainstorm by drawing for the turn, playing your second fetch and then casting Brainstorm. This lets you crack the fetch to shuffle away cards you don't needs and still top or cast other spells.
(4) playtest with strange sideboards. You want to know how your list functions without various cards in your deck at any given time. It's important to know just how many cantrips you can afford to board out, and when 1R is too much to pay for a Doomsday (meaning you'd board out Burning Wishes for more bombs). Armed with this knowledge you can sideboard more fluidly and be vastly more effective when piloting storm combo.
One thing that's been troubling me with my Doomsday build (compared to emidln's latest Wish versions, it's got way less acceleration and way more protection) is that I often am able to Duress the opponent's FoW, Pyroblast his Counterbalance, and Duress the Brainstorm while he's tapped out leaving him with irrelevant cards - and which leaves me with LED, 2 Dark Rituals, and a Mystical Tutor.
Doomsday has a lot of advantages over other storm engines, but this is one glaring weakness that I am very frustrated about - not being able to close out the opponent when he's down, because of the lack of either SDT or Brainstorm to pair with Doomsday. That lone Mystical Tutor in my hand can get Doomsday for a pass the turn pile, but that's really risky. A pass the turn Wish pile needs IGG, so even if I do run Wish, letting the opponent get back his Force and Brainstorm really isn't a good thing.
I was thinking if there is a singleton sorcery/instant which I could Mystical for in cases like this, which would let me win. And no, Ad Nauseam is not an option because the only acceleration I run is 4 Dark Rituals, 4 LED, and 1 Lotus Petal. Like I said, I maxed out on protection - personal preference, I guess. Maybe... Call the Skybreaker? Endless Swarm? Promise of Power? Janky, I know... But something along these thoughts.
...Or I just might go back to a Doomsday/Ad Nauseam/IGG hybrid. Which I don't want to do, because winning with Doomsday is just so much cooler.
In similar situations, I found replacing Meditate with Infernal Contract allowed me to tutor for a non DDAY threat that'd put me so far ahead in CA I'd win the game shortly.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Is the lifeloss relevant ever? I've rather enjoyed using Meditate instead of the BBB draw-4s.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Wasn't Contract/Bargain dropped because of the lifeloss and the inability to cast them off lands? Also how often do you actually cast a draw 4 outside of a dday pile? I did this like 2 times, when I had no other out and faced lethal damage next turn, but in that case Meditate is as bad/good as BBB Draw 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
See, that's kind of what I thought, but it's been so long I couldn't remember. Has anyone found a better draw-x card to use in D-Day piles? It's not something that's a big deal, but the skip your next turn thing is sometimes a relevant issue, at least for me...
Pce,
--DC
It's been an issue a couple of times, but being able to cast your Draw 4 off a Ritual (or lands, it's not that hard) makes it a much better tutor target and top deck.
I cast Meditate 2-3 times an event in a non-Doomsday capacity because it's pretty fucking amazing. I've considered going up to two copies so I can draw it more often because skipping a turn is far less of an issue in legacy than losing half of your life. Additionally, getting BBB might seem easy, but in practice it's rather difficult if you don't want to expend a ritual (which I'd never feel comfortable drawing 4 cards for 2 cards and half of my life if I had any choice in the matter).
New card spoiled:
Mirror of Fate :5:
Artifact
T, Sacrifice Mirror of Fate: Choose up to seven face-up exiled cards you own. Exile all the cards from your library, then put the chosen cards on top of your library.
Sorta Doomsday, but it works with cards outside the game.
It can be Needled or Stifled, but needs colorless mana (2 mana more though).
It can actually free some maindeck space, allowing some extreme version to run without tendrils or IGG maindeck.
It has a good synergy with Burning Wish.
EDIT: wait, it says exiled cards. Does that mean that you can't use SB cards?
Yup. No SB cards, just what are RFG'd. The only way this could be used is after casting Doomsday - where I'd rather cast Meditate/Brainstorm over this by a long shot.
That exile/RFG thing is killing me.
I just have to ask a question, it may be really stupid, I don't know.
But what about only playing with:
1 Helm of awakening
1 Brain freeze
And focusing on casting DDay and then win?
After i read emidln's page on doomsday piles this has to be most safe way to victory.
Is the 2 Infernal tutors, 1 tendrils, 1 ill-gotten gains a backupplan?
How often do you win without casting doomsday?
Helm of Awakening + Grapeshot/Brain Freeze is usually played out of the board, to combat Runed Halo / Meddling Mage / Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist (as a pass the turn pile) and other restrictions on Tendrils of Agony. I play it maindeck though, and it has saved me numerous times Game 1.
As for focusing on that over Tendrils... No. It needs much more mana post-Doomsday (usually 4U, over the usual 2U), so Tendrils is gnerally easier to work with. It's a great emergency button though.
Oh, and as for my question a couple of posts back.. I think I've found out the answer. I forgot I play Helm+Shot MD, so I guess I coud just pass the turn with a HelmShot Doomsday pile. It's risky, but playing combo really does require you to be a risk-taker. There's also the suggestion of casting a Draw 4 instead, which I could do if my gut feeling tells me that HelmShot isn't a good idea.
I can't believe that what I'm looking is already in the damn deck.
That mirror thingy would work well if it wasn't so mana-intensive (5 is a bit high IMHO) in place of IGG for a pass the turn pile without using your 'yard, and makes your Doomsday way more versatile if you so choose, building a Mirror pile at the end of a Doomsday pile with whatever hate you see fit.
I'll probably test it, but I don't have extremely high hopes...
Pce,
--DC
I played a little more yesterday with a DD-centric list with a couple Wishes and Ponders, and 7 Chants and Duresses MD. I cut back on Accelaration, dropping to a 4 Rituals, 1 Crit, 1 Rain, 4 Led and 1 Petal. I also went to 17 lands. I did miss the color fixing provided by petals, specially when Wastelocked by Aggro Loam in half of the games.
What motivated me to try this (highly experimental to me) build was to see how much I can rely on Wish for answers. I did build a couple piles using it to reach a SB Tendrils, mainly when not able to IGG Tendrils back against ANT, who had Chants in his yard. In this matchup I had a situation I wanted insight on:
My hand is Meditate, Tendrils, 2 Mystical tutors, Duress and 2 Lands.
On the draw I cast Duress on a mulliganed to 5 opponent and see AN, IT, CRit and a second land. What would you take and why?
.
.
.
I took Ritual, trying to get time to set myself up with my slow hand while protected by a tutored-for-Chant if needed be.
My opponent then proceed to draw Dark Ritual and IT for a second one. i Mystical for Chant. He untaps, draws and plays a Duress, taking Chant. I Mystical for a second one. He draws Seize, taking the Chant again. I untap with 3 lands, tendrils and Meditate. Meditate into 2 land and expensive stuff, play a land and pass the turn. He untaps, Chants from the top and AN into way more than needed.
I took some time to thibnk about this match. I am unsure if I should have gone for Duresses of my own off of any of the Mysticals. That match was very frustrating. I didn't want him to have mana AND bomb.
Next one is this:
In my fourth turn I have Sea, Tropical and Scrubland. In hand Rain of Filth, Meditate and IGG. He is ready to go off next turn and has 1 Ritual, 1 CRit and IT, which will likely go for AN for I have Chant in the yard. Tendrils is also there with a Duress but not a single nonland mana source. I see 3 lines of play for me:
1- Meditate and hope for teh nutz.
2- Rain, Meditate with Scrub untapped, hoping for Duress or Chant.
3- Rain, IGG into Scrub, Meditate and Duress. Duress his bomb and try to rebuild faster with Meditate as soon as the deck provides land #3.
I go for #2, draw 2 lands and 2 LED. He untaps and wins.
Would you play that out differently?
In the end I believe I saw a lot more Wishes than I should have seen with 2 on the list, so they tended to clog up in my hand. They saved my life a couple times, though.
I believe 2 Tendrils in sideboarded games make it a lot easier to go for early mini-tendrils. There is a lot of burn and aggro in general around here, but the good players are mostly piloting blue. So I would love to have a strong game against blue silliness without having to sweat blood against random "Fireblast-you" guys.
Also, I see people mentioning pass the turn stacks using Burning Wish. I couldnt figure it out on my own. Can someone expand on that?