I agree with Sulfuric Vortex. 2 MD 2 SB seems like a good idea.
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I agree with Sulfuric Vortex. 2 MD 2 SB seems like a good idea.
I'd even argue that you're not actually loosing any net virtual card advantage. You need to think about each card in terms of what comes on-line in your opponent's hand - this is true - but also what comes off-line.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Sulfuric Vortex does validate MD enchantment removal (and only MD, because boarding in Krosan Grips etc. to get a few Vortexes as the only targets is not a good move), but it also invalidates Jitte, StP and other life gain. Life gain interacts with burn's strategy, and is more common than MD enchantment removal (even if only considering StP and Jitte). Thus, you'll switch "off" more things than you switch "on" by playing SV.
I've played with a 2/1 split, a 3/1 split and 4 MD, and it all works well. It depends on what else you need to fit in your main. If you put them all in the main, you'll board out at least 1-2 in all MUs that don't have life gain or a lock-out mechanism (like CounterTop), but those games tend not to be problematic anyway.
Urdjur I'd like to see your list if you dont mind :) explaining card choices and thoughts on your metagame etc. Also nice if you would comment on the cards that are NOT in your deck. Thanks on advance.
Not that it matters, because I haven't played the deck in almost forever, but I pulled up my old R/u Burn deck, made a few quick changes, and figured I'd post it:
R/u Burn
// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [R] Volcanic Island
7 [P2] Mountain (3)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [DLM] Incinerate
2 [EX] Price of Progress
3 [DS] Flamebreak
2 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
4 [VI] Fireblast
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Hellspark Elemental, and Keldon Marauder all stand out possible inclusions.
The sideboard is probably really bad.
The biggest thing to note is Brainstorm. Brainstorm was excellent for me everytime I tested it, way back when.
If you're going Ru, I'd recommend Ancestral Visions.
It generally resolves just on the lethal turn and is very strong against decks with countermagic or other stall tactics. Unfortunately, it's easy to stop with CB/Top, but with just CB, even if it's stopped it can clear the way for a turn 5 burnout.
It's basically like Browbeat for U against every non-combo deck. And it's not even really worse against Combo, because Browbeat would cost 2R anyway and wouldn't be worth it.
Of course, it's bad to draw off the top, but its explosive delivery when it's in the opener is probably worth it.
It seems to me that Wheel of Fate also fills this role without necessitating the blue splash. The problem with ancestral vision to me is that you'd have to make more than just a small splash to have a good chance of having blue mana on turn one, and this would greatly weaken the manabase by adding vulnerability to wasteland and stifle. WoF and AV are both awful as late top-decks as well; with so many 1-mana spells at our disposal, I'm not sure more competition at that cc is really wise. Testing might show otherwise, as always.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
You guys are missing the point of Brainstorm entirely.
The point isn't to draw a bunch of cards, the point is to make sure you have the most relevant spell combination available to you in the first 4 turns.
Brainstorm helps prevent mana screw. Opening the deck up to Waste/Stifle can negate this point, but not all decks run Waste/Stifle, and it sucks when Burn is stuck on only 1 land throughout the entire early game.
Brainstorm can help prevent land floods. This is very important because land floods gas the deck, and losing steam loses games.
It sucks having a handful of Fireblasts or a handful of PoP's against a monocolor deck. Brainstorm improves the quality of burn spells in hand, allowing the deck to increase its consistency.
Brainstorm can help dig for important and/or sideboard cards, like Flamebreak against Goblins, and Vexing Shusher against CounterTop.
Keep in mind that this doesn't mean that you need to Brainstorm on turn 1, nor do you want to allow Brainstorm to affect tempo. You'll use it when you need to, or you'll use it when you have an extra mana source available that you wouldn't have used otherwise.
Brainstorm is extremely efficient for the curve, costing only 1 mana. It gives the deck that extra little push of consistency and midgame strength to finish, with very minimal drawback.
Brainstorm also provides a similar function to Street Wraith, Manamorphose, Baubles, etc... which is removing less efficient burn spells for a spell that increases the probability of seeing better burn spells.
Whether or not running fetchlands and dual lands is worth it or not is the only reason to either run or not run Brainstorm. Spells like Ancestral Visions, Wheel of Fate, and Browbeat are in no way comparable to the function of Brainstorm.
/explanation
Brainstorm is good in the same ways that Magma Jet is good (I think Hanni explained this pretty well). Brainstorm's sculpting effect is much greater and it's cheaper, but OTOH needs to find a really good burn spell or avoid mana flood something fierce to compensate for the lack of any damage at all. A red brainstorm would be sexy and should probably be played, but if you're going to splash anyway, blue wouldn't be my first choice.
Sure, here it is:Quote:
Urdjur I'd like to see your list if you dont mind :) explaining card choices and thoughts on your metagame etc. Also nice if you would comment on the cards that are NOT in your deck. Thanks on advance.
LANDS (20)
18 Mountains
2 Barbarian Ring
CREATURES (4)
4 Keldon Marauders
INSTANTS (20)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
4 Volcanic Fallout
SORCERIES (12)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Sulfuric Vortex
SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Pithing Needle
The meta game I prepare for is broad with lots of aggro/aggro-control (including tribal), and a small portion of pure combo and control. So, everything basically, but I try to have multi-purpose SB cards with overlapping functions so that there will be many options for the more common MUs and fewer for the less common (but still a little something).
"Unorthodox" Choices:
*MD Volcanic Fallout: They are very useful not only against tribal aggro but also against most aggro-control, Ichorid, EtW tokens, anything running manlands etc. I rarely find myself boarding them out.
*4 MD PoP: I'd actually prefer a 3/1 MD/SB split, but I don't have room in the sideboard. With Burn, I generally feel more pressed for space in the board than in the main. 4 MD PoP is only really terrible against Elves (a good MU anyway) and budget MBA though.
*MD Sulfuric Vortex: The merits of these have been discussed recently.
SB Plan:
*Shattering Spree: Against Stax, Affinity, Stompy shells (anything with Chalice/Trinisphere)
*Pyrostatic Pillar: Against storm combo, thresh (or other with lots of cantrips), elves (non vial swarming aggro).
*Ensnaring Bridge: Replaces least efficient burn spell against anything that wins by creatures (ichorid, dreadnought, goyf/stalker, tribal aggro especially), also stops life gain creatures like Exalted Angel and Rhox War Monk.
*REB: CounterTop, anything else blue, an important out to Chill.
*Shusher: CounterTop, Chalice (back up to Spree), generic threat that can replace PoP against elves etc. too.
*Needle: CounterTop, CoP: Red/Aegis of Honor, Sterling Grove (enchantress, fetching Solitary Confinement), Survival of the Fittest, Jitte, Belcher and more.
MD cards I'm always considering:
*Incinerate: A very decent burn spell, and probably next in line if I would ever feel the need to take something out of the main. The 2cc cost hardly ever matters if you make your 3rd land drop - you have the mana to spend anyway.
*Hellspark Elemental: Reusability and getting past counters (unearth), even helping against discard and ichorid - all of this is huge. But being stopped by StP is a big risk. He's out for now, but I keep going back and forth between him or Incinerate being the next best burn spell.
*Manamorphose: If Incinerate and HE would for some reason not be enough, Manamorphose would be my next-in-line filler.
Other SB cards occasionally considered:
*Anarchy: If Sphere of Law would show up, together with more Enchantress and white hate (Worship/Mongoose). Basically, if the meta game would get more prepared, I'd consider this. (Though playing Burn in a prepared meta game is a bit like playing Ichorid in a prepared meta - a bad idea. As long as they think that 2-3 Jitte will save them, we're golden).
*Smash to Smithereens: Used to be my favorite SB card until I ran into Phyrexian Dreadnought and his friend Force of Will. I still think StS or SS in the anti-artifact slot is up to the meta. I just feel more secure going in with SS.
*Relic of Progenitus: Before running Ensnaring Bridge, I used this against Goyf/Stalker/Ichorid. But I don't think it's necessary anymore.
Anything not mentioned in this post is probably not even up for consideration, but if you wonder why, feel free to ask. Same goes for cards in the deck if they need more explaining.
Barbarian Rings--Why? They're suceptible to Wasteland, they don't sac for Fireblast, they're hit by Stifle.
@Wasteland: Avoid this by not keeping a hand with 1 Mountain + 1 BRing against an unknown opponent. Played as land #3 to land an important 3cc spell, or even to win the game, getting hit by wasteland doesn't matter much. Wasteland also has nothing on it when you simply use it as a top decked, uncounterable Shock.Quote:
Originally Posted by heroicraptor
@Don't sac to Fireblast: Neither does Lightning Bolt. If you have 18 Mountain already and are not keeping 1 land hands, you should not be in short supply anyway.
@Hit by stifle: Decks that run stifle run blue. Decks that run blue run many counterspells. Being uncounterable > being unstifleable. Also, Rift Bolt can be stifled too, so it's not a dead card for blue anyway.
Reason to play BRing (rather than nullifying reasons not to...)
*You get to enjoy the best of both worlds playing 18 and 20 lands, with very little drawback, avoiding both mana flood and excessive mulligans.
*You get an uncounterable, colorless source of damage (BRing + Needle are my only outs to the quite common Burrenton Forge Tender that otherwise cancels Volcanic Fallout).
It's actually a pretty good burn spell in its own right. Why wouldn't you want an improved shock that taps for mana?
I think you have entered 2 barbarian rings, 1 vortex and 1 fallout in the sacred slots of the great among the great: the fanatic mogg
Seriously, the question about barbarian ring is some kind of personal feeling. But your deck runs 8 spells who cost 3 to play, a huge number for a burn list. In addition the vortex has little sinergy with barbarian ring, since it is a permanent and doesn't feet the graveyard.
Maybe I will go -1 vortex, -1 fallout ---> +2 fanatic mogg
I've actually completely dropped barbarian ring, and am pretty happy with it. I like having a land base of 100% mountains, as it is the worst feeling in the world to have 4 lands out and not be able to double fireblast for the win. And while it hasn't happened to me, the potential to keep a two land hand and then be wastelanded seems bad. And half the time that I see barbarian ring, I never get threshold. Maybe in a more cantrippy list you can get thresh more reliably.
As far as the land-base goes, I feel that some number of Forgotten Cave (the R, cycle land) may be appropriate... maybe two?
Yup, that's what I've gathered from burn threads too. Mulligan strategies, meta, play style and build all contribute to that feeling. In short, it seems that those that don't like barbarian ring use it differently than I do.Quote:
Seriously, the question about barbarian ring is some kind of personal feeling.
I used to think (for some reason) that playing 8 3cc spells in a burn list would be bad. This was when I played 6 such spells. Then I did the math, upped the count to 8, and now I think you could even go up to 9 3cc spells if you wanted to make the most of your mana curve. The hypergeometric distribution for the first ten cards with 8 3cc spells in the deck, gives the following percentages for total #of 3cc spells drawn:Quote:
But your deck runs 8 spells who cost 3 to play, a huge number for a burn list. In addition the vortex has little sinergy with barbarian ring, since it is a permanent and doesn't feet the graveyard.
0: 20%
1: 40%
2: 30%
3+: 10%
So in one out of every 5 games, you still won't see any 3cc spell at all, despite having 8 in the deck. Most often, you'll see one or two, and when you see two, chances are it will be one sweeper + one vortex, which is perfect (than you can choose the one you need the most for your t3 play). One in every 10 games, you risk getting "3cc flooded" but that's still half as often as you'll never draw a single 3cc spell, so....
Cantrips, fetch lands and non-permamenents all make barbarian ring easier to use, but this is mostly useful in a gold fish. In an actual game, you run into counters, discard, LD, must occasionally bolt a creature and so on. Then it's easy to get 7 cards in the grave without having won already. Also, Fireblast makes threshold almost guaranteed, and it's nice to have an uncounterable shock as a back-up if they force it.
I like this hypergeometric distribution method and it especially is an eye opener for the 3cc slot. I would have never thought that going up to 8 3cc spells would be ok. Running 4 Vortex though, still feels too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
Would you ever consider playing 3 Fetches in Burn? I say 3 because you don't need the land thinning as much as, say, Thresh.
Also, thinking about a splash, what about going B for Blightning, amongst other things like Everlasting Torment?
If I EVER considered a splash, it would be white for Helix. And that has been talked about here before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
As for Blightning - this is another cmc3 card and in this slot there are far better options in Flame Javelin, Sulfuric Vortex and Volcanic Fallout.
And Everlasting Torment (which I do already play in my Sideboard for not having Vortex, yet) doesn't even need a splash as you can cast it for :2::r:.
Okay, I think it's well past time all of you guys started playing Ankh of Mishras again. Freaking fetchlands are everywhere these days.
If someone decides to use flame rift, how many do you think they should use? A lot of lists on deckcheck.net go for a full set.
Nope RTFT, not to mention there was a SCD on this terrible card,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
And flame rift is bad in an aggro meta. Aka everywhere right now
But I wouldn't run more than 2, it depends on number of sulfuric vortex md/sb, and the curve you are trying to go for.
I'm running 3 main so far with 2-3 other support cards that stop life gain in the sideboard.