Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
That's very difficult to find the good ratio of basic lands...it is really meta-depending I guess.
Usually having 2 lands in play (one basic of each) is enough. Having a stifled fetch is really painful but those decks don't have a fast clock, that generally gives enough time to find another land...
I won't go with 4 basics land, that seems too much. I think you'll be screwed more than you'd be helped. I'd rather then play more fetch-lands.
For the moment I have two swamps and one island in my build. But I receive my 4th undergroud sea next week and I think i will bring it in in place of one swamp...
My meta doesn't see many tempodecks so that's maybe why I don't see the interest of bringing in more basics. I don't know what about yours...
{your analysis with dredge deck looks good since i am a LEDless dredge player :wink: }
@raptorcardz : do you have more explanations ?
even if you face multiples Leyline, you can Echoing Truth EOT and then go for Entomb...
You also have Show&Tell and Reverent's silence to play around those...
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
I'm surprised by the number of people running Lotus petal (or more than 1 Dark Ritual even). In most situations, Land will be just as fast. Sure, there are cases where Lotus petal is faster. Here are examples of times where Lotus petal lets you go off a full turn earlier than if you played a land in the slot instead:
- T1: Lotus Petal, Land, Careful Study/Entomb, Reanimate
- T1: Petal, Petal, Land, Careful Study/Entomb, Exhume
- T1: Land, Mystical Tutor->Careful Study/Entomb; T2: Land, Petal, Careful Study/Entomb, Exhume
- T1: EndStep Discard down; T2: Land, Petal, Exhume
- T1: Petal, Petal, Petal, Petal, Land, Entomb, Brainstorm->Brainstorm, Brainstorm->Exhume, Exhume (have to dig down 4 cards to find your Exhume...Lulz)
Lotus Petal is balls to the wall, and I'm not convinced we should overextend (even minimally). The card disadvantage just hasn't been worth the small boost of tempo in niche situations. I think the speed you get just isn't impressive. You can run a more resilient and reusable manabase just going pure lands.
The majority of the time, your combo is just fine like this:
- T1: Land, Mystical->Entomb/Careful Study/Reanimate; T2: Land, Careful Study/Entomb, Reanimate
- T1: Land, Careful Study/Entomb; T2: Reanimate
- T1: Land, Careful Study/Entomb; T2: Land, Exhume
In the majority of cases, I prefer going off turn 2! I want the information about what my opponent is playing. I need to know which silverbullet I need. The deck desperately wants to have information about the opponent, and turn 1 combos rarely offer that resource. But, by waiting a single turn, you gain a lot of info (imperfect information is none-the-less very valuable to a knowledgeable Legacy player), and perhaps even slow down enough to sculpt your hand or play a temporary control-role against some strong opposing hands.
The argument might be that turn 2 is the fundamental factor, against CB/Chalice, etc, but I think effective use of card selection and 1cc disrupters (Thoughtseize, Duress, Spell Pierce) alongside a green splash for sideboard Grip/Claim performs better than relying on the handful of cases where Lotus petal is actually faster than just running plain land.
I think having 18 lands is really valuable against decks which abuse Wasteland heavily. Sometimes you might feel mana-flooded, but Careful Study and Brainstorm are excellent at converting land into gas. When you are facing mulligans or mana-denial, having 18 lands will become more valuable. Some of you drop really low on mana sources and rely on cantripping to find manasources. You do know there is a ceiling to how much land/functions you can take out for cantrips, right?
---------------
As for running the second Island and Swamp, I suggest just splashing with Bayou/Tropical Island. You should still have 6-7 fetches for each Basic color, so the odds aren't much lower for getting the basic when you want it. However, you can very, very easily open up the 3rd color. I adore the green splash in this deck. You obviously can play without it, using Stifle/Bounce. I still prefer splashing for green when I'm facing Counterbalance or prison--I prefer permanently removing hate. Going end step Wipe Away on a Counterbalance, and then having your opponent use permission to control your single turn of freedom really sucks. As for Xantid Swarm, I have mixed feelings; but splashing green is worth it just for access to Grip/Claim/Reverent Silence. Use your Mystical tutors on the best silverbullets available.
peace,
4eak
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
wow. so people still play my deck... but it seems like always the thread is all over the place. lol
im very happy to see that alot of people are placing with the deck though.
Entomb does make the deck ridiculously faster ( i havent played in a bout a year and a half. lol ), but i still hold strong to the fact you dont need countermagic in an aggro based decklist.
Discard is also not good ( if you want explanations why, read the first two pages of the thread.)
and i also have no idea why people dont play Titan anymore, it single handedly ruins decks like coutertop if played off a show and tell, all their lands go away if they kill it. thus no engine.
but hey... what do i know... i mean i only had the most extensive testing done with this deck and evolved it to where it was tournament worthy. lol
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
@ rodgon666
Quote:
i still hold strong to the fact you dont need countermagic in an aggro based decklist.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'aggro based decklist'. I do know that versions using Oona's Prowler, Putrid Imp are dead; these cards have no place in a deck which revolves around Entomb and Mystical Tutor. The past year and half that you've not played has also been the time that we've seen the birth of some of the strongest reanimation targets, which in my opinion, are really more defensive than aggressive.
You really do need permission in this deck though. There were several preconditions to this deck's emerging viability in the past year, one of them is the inclusion of a permission suite. The others include Entomb's unbanning, the inclusion of Mystical Tutor (speed and versatility), having creatures actually worth reanimating, and by extension, we finally have an effective toolbox.
FoW/Daze in particular allow the deck to push through the combo on turns 2 and 3 with surprising consistency, even against decks which sport their own permission (which many competitive decks do play). The tempo permission suite is also a very necessary defensive tool, as we need countermagic to combat opposing combos, answers to our combo (board control, hand control, GY-hate, and opposing stack control like Chalice/CB).
Quote:
and i also have no idea why people dont play Titan anymore, it single handedly ruins decks like coutertop if played off a show and tell, all their lands go away if they kill it. thus no engine.
I love Sundering Titan, but I think it isn't a very versatile card in the end. He's disruptive, but also easy enough to answer and recover from. I think there are better answers to aggro-control decks. In the majority of cases, I very much prefer shroud (Inkwell Leviathan or Empyrial Archangel) or Iona, which can lock them out in a much stronger sense.
peace,
4eak
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4eak
Lotus Petal is balls to the wall, and I'm not convinced we should overextend (even minimally). The card disadvantage just hasn't been worth the small boost of tempo in niche situations. I think the speed you get just isn't impressive. You can run a more resilient and reusable manabase just going pure lands.
---------------
As for running the second Island and Swamp, I suggest just splashing with Bayou/Tropical Island. You should still have 6-7 fetches for each Basic color, so the odds aren't much lower for getting the basic when you want it. However, you can very, very easily open up the 3rd color. I adore the green splash in this deck. You obviously can play without it, using Stifle/Bounce. I still prefer splashing for green when I'm facing Counterbalance or prison--I prefer permanently removing hate. Going end step Wipe Away on a Counterbalance, and then having your opponent use permission to control your single turn of freedom really sucks. As for Xantid Swarm, I have mixed feelings; but splashing green is worth it just for access to Grip/Claim/Reverent Silence. Use your Mystical tutors on the best silverbullets available.
peace,
4eak
From the posts I've read Practical write, he uses the Petal as a 3 colour land as much as he uses it as an accelerator. I wouldn't recommend going so low on land myself, but the fact that it hinders your opponent keeping you off your 3rd colour (fetches and basics or not) is a big deal and as such it can warrent inclusion.
BTW, do you have a list? Have not seen it up here.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
From the posts I've read Practical write, he uses the Petal as a 3 colour land as much as he uses it as an accelerator. I wouldn't recommend going so low on land myself, but the fact that it hinders your opponent keeping you off your 3rd colour (fetches and basics or not) is a big deal and as such it can warrent inclusion
Honestly, I don't need my 3rd color so much against tempo decks which are capable of keeping me off my 3rd color. Even in the tempo match, I prefer Lands to petals though. In fact, I moved up to 18 land because of the tempo match (which, in my opinion, is a difficult match). You often need several attempts against tempo thresh for a successful combo, and Land gives you that opportunity.
Which brings me to another point, but slightly off-topic: one of my favorite aspects of Reanimator combo is that you can very easily break the combo into pieces and play them over several turns (many combo decks can't do this), and secondly that top decks, even after a depleted hand or attrition war remain deadly throughout the game. I also appreciate how well the deck can play around GY-hate.
Quote:
BTW, do you have a list? Have not seen it up here.
// Lands -- 18
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [R] Bayou
1 [B] Tropical Island
// Creatures -- 6
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan
// Reanimation Effects -- 8
4 [US] Exhume
4 [FNM] Reanimate
// Card Selection -- 16
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [V09] Mystical Tutor
4 [BD] Brainstorm
// Permission, Disruption, Answers -- 12
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [OD] Extract
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 1 [4E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle
It may look redundant (to some people) to have both Empyrial Archangel and Blazing Archon in the main. I've seen some people moving away from Emp-Archangel, but I think this is a mistake. I honestly use these two reanimation targets in very different situations. Archon is obviously insane against so many decks, like Merfolk and Dredge, which can almost never answer them in the main (and often not after siding either). Archon gives you a shot against a horde of creatures, particularly those which are hitting a threshold of alpha-strike damage on the board, forcing you into a defensive mode (and if they run answers to it, you hope they don't have it or you counter/seize them), but I've found it lacking against aggro-control decks which very likely have an answer to Archon while also having enough gas to finish you if you go for the normal defensive cards (Iona, Inkwell). Empyrial Angel is an aggro-control slayer. It fits very nicely into those situations where Reanimate + FoW + Fetches + opposing creature beats/burn put you at a low life total, you assume your opponent can answer your creature (StP?), and they've got just enough gas on the board/in-hand to finish you before your creature could finish them. For example, if my opponent has 19 life, and a 4/5 Goyf in play, perhaps an StP or Burn in hand, and I'm going to be at roughly 8 life after a Reanimate, I can't afford to reanimate and swing with a Inkwell. I need a defensive out, which can't be Sphinx because of StP, and Emp-Archangel is the straight pimp in those situations--and, yes, you will face removal/burn + creatures at precarious life totals in this format. You don't have to risk having Archon answered if they don't have an alpha-strike force on the table and rather a more reasonable amount of damage will be expected each turn (still lethal over several turns while you were at low-life, but not enough to kill Emp-Archangel).
I have considered going to 2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind. The card gets you out of unforeseen tight spots, and it is particularly good in attrition battles. Very few aggro decks can keep up with the 12-18 life swing (including vigilance defense) per round of turns. Like Emp-Angel, it plays a strong defensive role against opposing aggro while still allowing you to attack.
Echoing truth has been absolutely awesome in the main. It makes all the clutch plays and gives us our outs in game 1.
I'm really impressed with Thoughtseizes, but sadly, I don't have room for the 4th. I usually want to know my opponent's hand before selecting which silverbullet to drop on the battlefield. The fact that it can hit creatures has mattered against opposing hands and for dumping my own targets. I have to say, in most cases, I prefer Thoughtseize to Spell pierce, which is why Seize is main. Spell pierce is reactive, and soaks up tempo when unused (as you leave yourself untapped). Thoughtseize's proactive approach doesn't waste tempo though. Admittedly, Thoughtseize can be played around, through Brainstorm and floating with SDT, and essentially in topdeck wars, spells will be cast before you have the chance to seize it in many cases. Spell pierce often becomes just as useless at this stage though, as smart players can effectively play around Spell pierce in the mid and late game. Against heavy burn, some tempo decks, or Storm, Spell Pierce quickly becomes a better pick (so I do have it in the sideboard).
Also noteworthy, Show and Tell remains in the side. There have been game 1's where Show and Tell was useful, but more often than not, I ended up pitching to Force, Brainstorm/Careful Studying it away, wishing I had the 3 mana/a creature in hand/it was a different card. It is particularly good in slower matches, attrition battles, and for avoiding GY hate; I think it definitely merits at least a sideboard slot or two.
Extract has been fantastic against non-red (Burning Wish) Storm decks and even NoProg. This is a rough matchup for us (even with our disruption), and every little bit helps.
I highly suggest a 2/1 split on Grip/Claim. Claim is fantastic because it is so fucking cheap, but it sucks against Chalice and CB, which are very nicely answered by Grip. Reverent silence is a nod to both Leyline and enchantment based prisons -- it fits in beautifully with the mana-curve (free), letting you go off on the same turn as you cast it.
Perish has been stronger than I thought it would be. If you haven't tested it already, I suggest it. It has been quite nice against a surprising number of decks.
Terastadon is sided simply because I think the card largely sucks in the main. Echoing truth is elegant and doesn't require nearly the same investment, and almost always performs just as well. In many cases, the permanents which are problematic are really preventing me going off in the first place, which makes Terastadon a waste in some cases. It is still a nod to random.stuff which hasn't been anticipated.
Stifle is also for the random stuff. Hexmage combo, etc. As weird as it sounds, I may actually switch to Trickbind here -- namely because Mystical Tutor (the usual way of finding singletons) gives away too much information. Split second helps break the information symmetry of Mystical tutor.
peace,
4eak
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oxmo39
That's very difficult to find the good ratio of basic lands...it is really meta-depending I guess.
Usually having 2 lands in play (one basic of each) is enough. Having a stifled fetch is really painful but those decks don't have a fast clock, that generally gives enough time to find another land...
I won't go with 4 basics land, that seems too much. I think you'll be screwed more than you'd be helped. I'd rather then play more fetch-lands.
For the moment I have two swamps and one island in my build. But I receive my 4th undergroud sea next week and I think i will bring it in in place of one swamp...
My meta doesn't see many tempodecks so that's maybe why I don't see the interest of bringing in more basics. I don't know what about yours...
{your analysis with dredge deck looks good since i am a LEDless dredge player :wink: }
@raptorcardz : do you have more explanations ?
even if you face multiples Leyline, you can Echoing Truth EOT and then go for Entomb...
You also have Show&Tell and Reverent's silence to play around those...
One person was running 4 leyline and 3 extirpate SB. Spellstutter Sprite maindeck is incredibly annoying as well. I never drew echoing truth. Also a few counters and I am wrecked. Too many blue decks in my meta for me to be playing this deck I think.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
That's why I have xantid swarms in my SB, they are so good!
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
I'm trying a list which is very similar to 4eak's one, but playing only 16 lands and adding a single ritual and a 7th critter.
I talk to ppl from many different countries (with differnt metas) and some of them love empyrial and others hate it. Should I play it over Sundering Titan?
Has anyone experience with EE in their Side? Was it useful?
I'm giving a try to this list with 7 critters and 4x Careful Study. Would a 3 critter list be better? What do you guys think?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
a 3 critter list is much slower than a 7 critter list since it has to rely on entomb only.
It also spend the first 1-2 turn to cantrip, this version is more combo related than based on speed.
I have played EE in sideboard and it works fine against the decks you will use them.
EE is good against: chalice, zoo, crypts, elfball ( yes I played against it on Day 2), counterbalance ( even though I never board it in, it's still very possible to trick them with an EE especially for the slower lists this could be a decent answer as well), dreadnaughts and numerous other decks.
I love empyrial archangel, but in the current meta and with running goyfs everywhere, she simply wasn't able to survive.
When I won the dutch legacy nationals she won about 50% of my games, not much later she got trampled to death everywhere I summoned her.
This is due to the rise of BANT-aggro and merfolk in my area and also the rock decks have gotten a bit faster when it comes to dealing 8 pounts of damage.
I think a 7 critter list ( or 6) is better than a 3 critter one, since it relies on a very few choises and only on entomb and thoughtseize as a discard outlet. careful study isn't a very good card for that version, since show and tell is a better one-off than careful study.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Okay i try to adress a couple of things here. Beforehand i looks like this deck has come to a point where the core list is quite agreed on and we are fideling on details only, which is a good thing!
First of 4eak's view on the manabase and his list.
- I like his idea of not running fast mana at all to decrease card disadvantage and increase consistency (foremost against mana denial decks).
- As 18 lands looks slightly too high, i think about using 17 and 1-2 Ponder in a none speed (no Petal) version.
- Not sure about how needed the single Ritual is, seemed to be different opinions on this matter.
- I think 3 Mysticals are enough for the said reasons, Ponder looks a little bit better at that point. Although 4 Mystical is really nice with a silver bullet board.
- Dont know if i like to run additional fatties in the board. At most one, because i think the bigger problem after boarding is to put a critter into play in the first place. If yes, Akroma, Thunder Dragon, Terastodon and an additional Iona are the prefered choices.
- About the ones who run Durress, before adding any i strongly recommend maxing the number of Seize. The biggest is Faerie Macabre, which is no fun - especially as it seems to be added to the maindeck even recently (this could be a temporary thing though, dont know). But if it starts to see increased play, increasing the number of Stifles could be good.
- About Ponder in general, i wouldnt go as far as running 4 Ponder because this would go to the cost of other aspects of the deck, most likely disruption. And i like to have at least 2 Thoughtseize (with FoW and Daze maxed out ofc). As said replacing the 18th land with two Ponder looks quite appealing.
- Somehow i think it is really a big difference of running 7 creatures opposed to the 6 (with 4 Studys!) - in other words, that 7 creatures make Study much better and just running 6 lets Study to be supoptimal at times. I dont know where this comes from :eyebrow:
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
I think 3 Mysticals are enough for the said reasons, Ponder looks a little bit better at that point. Although 4 Mystical is really nice with a silver bullet board.
I vociferously disagree. It is unacceptable to lose the raw flexibility and speed provided by Mystical tutor (even the 4th one). Mystical tutor, like Entomb, are auto-4's. Even without a toolbox sideboard, Mystical tutor is arguably the strongest card in the deck.
Playing 4 mystical tutors makes it so that you are playing 4 more of the any given missing piece you need. Mystical tutor makes this deck consistent, and at the same time, gives it flexibility. Mystical chains into Entomb nicely. Mystical tutor let's you grab Exhume when you are low on life or Reanimate when you are tight on mana. Mystical tutor picks up FoW or Thoughtseize when you need protection/disruption. Mystical tutor grabs your Echoing truth or Show and Tell. Games 2 and 3 it obviously shines even more.
This is a combo deck with which you should mulligan very aggressively--that's a strong sign that Mystical tutor's card disadvantage cost is easily worth the ability to tutor for the exact card you need at the moment.
Quote:
About the ones who run Durress, before adding any i strongly recommend maxing the number of Seize. The biggest is Faerie Macabre, which is no fun - especially as it seems to be added to the maindeck even recently (this could be a temporary thing though, dont know). But if it starts to see increased play, increasing the number of Stifles could be good.
Agreed. After testing against decks packing 3-4 Faerie Macabre I'm actually dropping some Spell pierces for the additional Stifles for now. Also, smart players have been hating Dredge (and some continue the trend in the case of Reanimator) with diversified GY-hate packages, e.g. [1 Crypt, 1 Relic, 1 Faerie, 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon]. Against the unknown, I board both a single Stifle and Nature's Claim in games 2 and 3. Both cards usually do the same thing (as Crypt/Relic are the most common), but there are corner cases where one is clearly better than the other. I expect to see those corner cases more often.
Quote:
Somehow i think it is really a big difference of running 7 creatures opposed to the 6 (with 4 Studys!) - in other words, that 7 creatures make Study much better and just running 6 lets Study to be supoptimal at times. I dont know where this comes from
It is actually pretty difficult to "feel" the difference between 6 and 7 here. You're talking about a few percentage points. It isn't so easy to gauge, as Brainstorm makes Careful Study a stronger card. For those who want to diversify their reanimation toolbox though, I can easily understand the 7th. For others though, I think it might be worth testing Ponder in the place of this 7th creature. Ponder can often grab a creature/entomb/mystical tutor (which will all function appropriately), and remains even more versatile than a creature stuck in your hands when you don't have a Careful study (which is the case you'll see more often than not in opening hands that have a creature in them).
peace,
4eak
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
What's the best Sideboarding plan against Merfolk? I ask, because I played against it three times in a recent tournament, and didn't do very well. There also seemed to be a tremendous amount of Merfolk at the tournament in general, and I'm wondering if this is the best Reanimator deck to fight against that. Game one is a little better than even with U/B, but games 2 and 3 were a nightmare. Tormod's Crypt in conjunction with their other disruption was deadly, although Show and Tell saved me a few times. I had a Waterfront Bouncer vialed in EOT against me that bounced my Blazing Archon, which really destroyed me. LOA was also pivotal in racing my Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and I'm wondering if a switch to Mono-Black would yield better results against the fish. Sure you lose FOW and Daze, but you gain Unmask and Thoughtseize. You're no longer Wastelandable or Islandwalkable, and Dark Ritual is very fast.
In Blue, you gain Mystical Tutor and Careful Study. These are very important cards, but they're far from perfect imo. Often times I would blindly Careful Study, because I had to try and find the win. Maybe I just wasn't lucky enough, but after mulligans you take what you can get. I was often under pressure from my opponent and I drew no creatures. This hurts so much, because outside of Entomb, Careful Study is the only way to bin creatures (apart from discarding down from 8, which takes too long usually). It also leaves you very vulnerable to Crypt and Relic, because after you've gotten 2 for1ed, you then need to find another Study + Creatures or Entomb. I guess Mystical Tutor helps in this, but it also puts you a card down and if they have a counter you're hosed.
In order to play just Black, you'd need to replace Careful Study, the logical choice being Putrid Imp. You still need to have a creature to pitch, which sucks, but it's not much worse than Study. He also has the benefit of sticking around after Crypt affects, making it easier to recover. He also pitches to Cabal Therapy, which I'd probably play, and blocks. Buried Alive is a card I'd like to see more discussion about. Granted, it's slow. 3 mana is alot for a sorcery speed setup spell, but it's also a certain thing. Reliability is something only Entomb gives us, and there were many points in the tournament that I wished I was playing this card. I didn't need more Brainstorms and Careful Study. I needed guaranteed creatures in the graveyard. In conjunction with Dark Ritual, I think Buried Alive is probably good enough.
Right now the deck runs alot of blue. 4 Fow, Brainstorm, Careful Study, Daze, and X Ponder and Mystical Tutor. Theoretically there are some direct functional alternatives. Unmask for FOW and Putrid Imp for Careful Study. Brainstorm and Ponder are tricky, because they double as every other card in the deck. The only way to replace this is to add in more redundancy, with additional Disruption (Thoughtseize/Therapy), Animation (Animate Dead), and Binning effects (Buried Alive). What you then have, is a deck very similar deck to this one, without the added power of the best blue cards. While I understand that this weakens my matchups against some other decks, What if my goal is just to beat Merfolk?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
When you go Monoblack the most important thing you lose is the ability to play around hate. You can't put creatures into play with Show and Tell and you can't bounce hate. A monoblack deck would just scoop to Leyline, but if your only goal is to beat Merfolk then it's probably better.
I think I'm also leaning towards a build that is centered more around black, though. So far I have been very unimpressed by the Dazes, and I have been wanting to just replace them with 4x Duress so I'd be playing 4x Thoughtseize, 4x Duress, 4x Dark Ritual.
Am I the only one who thinks that more discard effects > Daze in this deck?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
I should have mentioned, that there's little reason not to splash green in Mono-Black. You get Krosan Grip, which is important at that point. I also think that black discard in conjunction with Dark Ritual is what this deck needs. I was playing Fow, Daze, and Spell Pierce main, and it was just too reactive. I don't think this deck needs to bother with that much protection, as it was often all I had to play. I think it should focus more on speed.
What is everyones opinion on Unmask? Just as good as Force of Will?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
@ troopatroop
10 posts up on this page, I gave reasons I thought this deck has become viable.
The deck was never viable as mono black, and I doubt it will ever be in the same league as U/B shells. The deck has seen more results in the past 6 months than in the 4 years previous to it; I think the continued use of blue is a part of that change in viability. This is not a new archetype either, every johnny has built this deck, and it has failed until Iona and Entomb, in conjunction with a blue shell, brought the deck to life (puns, ftw).
Mono black reanimator is actually slower and less consistent than U/B in my experience. The card selection alone makes blue worthwhile. Even if you didn't run permission, you should still play blue for the selection. That said, I think it would be madness not to be play the blue permission shell. Black really doesn't have serious analogues. Blue will always be the king of control/disruption; discard effects will never usurp it, although I think discard is a very strong complement to the blue control elements in this case.
Quote:
I was playing Fow, Daze, and Spell Pierce main, and it was just too reactive.
I really didn't care for Spell pierce in the main (and only sided it in a few matchups). FoW/Daze are substantially stronger because they are free. I think 'reactive', which sounds like you are sitting in the control role, doesn't really encompass how the cards very often function. In most cases, FoW/Daze are a reaction to your opponent's reaction to your proactive offense, not draw go. You shouldn't be sitting in the control role very long or at all in most cases. FoW/Daze push your combo pieces through. Of course, it is capable making defensive plays against your opponent, stopping them from landing a piece of hate or a bomb. FoW/Daze buy you tempo. You'll always be one-hate piece ahead or one mana ahead of your opponent. It makes your early game strength phenomenal.
They are the predators. You have to bite the bullet and accept that you are the prey of merfolk here. Merfolk is a rough matchup. I've found it winnable, although not necessarily favorable. It also depends on the flavor you face. Those splashing white are more difficult, and those with uncommon tech like Waterfront bouncer (at least I don't see this often) can be more difficult as well.
If you think splashing for Green isn't a big deal, which entails a fetch/duals manabase, then you shouldn't find the blue splash to be problematic either. Going mono-black or dropping blue from the deck to avoid LoA is like shooting a hole in your foot to avoid stepping in a pile of shiz. The stability that blue brings to a mana-base alone easily overwhelms the cost of facing Islandwalk from LoA, which you'll only see in roughly half the time against Merfolk and nowhere else. I find my permission works overtime for me here as well. That said, I think there are ways to combat it.
- Run more land -- seriously
- Xantid Swarm
- Llawan, Cephalid Empress
- Sickening Dreams
@ kikoo
Quote:
Am I the only one who thinks that more discard effects > Daze in this deck?
If you intend on going off on turn 4 or later, yeah. If you want to explode early and protect while tapped out, Daze is simply much better. Many decks might not be able to afford the long-term tempo losses incurred by returning a land to their hand; but this deck can. We aren't concerned about long-term tempo, and we don't run a lot of lands in the first place, so we'll often be in no worse position a turn later. I can see dropping down to 3 Dazes though.
peace,
4eak
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Blue is essential for this deck, the counter shell is what makes the combo so good, especially with Rize of Eldrazi, casting a turn 1 9/9 unblockable Eldrazi with annihilate 3 with Force and Daze protection:eek:
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Question: In lists with Ritual, why aren't people running Top over Ponder?
I've been playing around with 17 Land, 3 Ritual, 3 Top, 4 creatures, 0 Careful Study, 0 Ponder for a while, and I'm curious to hear what other people think about this. Top can be played (and activated) alongside an Entomb or Thoughtseize on turn one; it's also very good with Entomb, and it's amazing with Mystical Tutor. Rituals are obviously situationally amazing with Entomb and Reanimate/Exhume, and adding Top increases the number of awesome turn one plays the deck can have.
Ponder increases consistency in the first few turns (instead of the midgame) and adds to the blue count for Force of Will. Running more lands over Ritual makes Top less explosive, but makes the deck more consistent than the land-light builds.
So, a set of coupled questions: Top or Ponder? How many lands and Rituals should you run?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
+ One in Ponder's favour
It's blue.
In a deck that wants to Forceofwill through it's combo in the first few turns, having blue cards in hand early is essential.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
SDT won't be really active untill T3, since you really want to spend your mana on action on T2 for sure.
Top becomes active the moment you don't really need it anymore and makes your deck slow as hell.
I've played against the mirror in Madrid and he played tops, ponder and a 3 creature list. Besides it being the mirror which is slow as hell, he had no action in the early turns unless his hand was good. SDT is a very good card, but it's too slow for a deck with this speed.
Ponder is active on T1, while top for sure isn't.
