[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CephalidBreakfast

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

---

I'd like to see a primer on sideboarding as well. Most of it seems common sense, but some things like what to board out against merfolk just seem iffy. I usually take 2 standstills and a decree but it seems like there's a zillion possibilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CephalidBreakfast

...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

---

The other two lists are rockout's.

OMG I got someone to reference my list! Hoo...RaH! I am Michael Misiaszek. Kevin spelt my name wrong, but o well.

I just realized that everything, besides theoretical situations that I talk about with Rehallek and Mossivo1986, are in the last 20 or so pages of this thread. Konsultant makes a solid point about Elspeth around page 30-40 and both of us talk briefly about why we play vindicate instead of humility. There is also a lot of talk about sb strategies in the mirror, goblins, aggro loam, survival and so on. Relic over Crypt, why we play ajani, why no gy hate, why gy hate, and pretty much anything you can want. Good luck with the reading.

I have been playing straight UW landstill, have to say though, I am not very good at it.

So I have a quiestion for 3 colour-players using vindicate (which is a cool list btw), do you miss humility at all? When playing UW, I often found humility much more useful than WoG, due to the elspeth and decree advantage.

I know I was one of the ones wondering just how strong Elspeth was, not because I didn't believe the hype, but rather because I just hadn't gotten around to playtesting it yet. I must say, very strong card. Much stronger than the Eternal Dragons that were in my list.

Here is my new and updated list:

U/W/g Kaezurstill

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
4 [OD] Island (4)
2 [5E] Plains (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [R] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [5E] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I'm still gonna preach the rediculousness that is Counterbalance, maindeck, and will do so till my face turns blue and then some. Beyond that, this deck is a powerhouse. If I were going to play in the GP (which I doubt I'll be able to), this would be the deck I'd be bringing. It has practically no bad matchups, with there being a few exceptions. Those few exceptions are mostly improved with either maindeck Counterbalance, or the sideboard hate.

So nothing to counter for cc3, not even Vindicate?

I thought exactly the same thing...

@Hanni: I like your list a lot and I think I'll test it out. Cutting black will be tough for me, but I was probably using Vindicate as a crutch anyway to bail out bad play decisions. Is the Savannah necessary now that you're not running E. Dragon? I think I would rather have a 2nd Tropical Island, especially with 4 Counterbalance and 4 Counterspell, you'll want UU early on a consistent basis, and will usually have time before finding WW becomes relevant.

Also, how are the Goblins/Merfolk matchups without Engineered Plague out of the side? Explosives and CB are strong against Merfolk, but it seems like you'll be leaning heavily on Wrath in the Goblins matchup.

Quote:

---

So nothing to counter for cc3, not even Vindicate?

---

Unfortunately, nope. There's really no where to fit in a 3cc, aside from I guess dropping the EE's for Grips or Vindicates, which I suppose is something that could and should be tested. Otherwise, you simply have to accept that Counterbalance isn't going to answer everything for you. Counterbalance isn't there to be the be all end all, locking the opponent completely out of the game on its lonesome. What it does is allow you to gain a gradual card advantage over the opponent, answer some key spells, and overall just give you a huge edge. If you try to use it as a crutch, the deck will fail. If you use it as a support tool, it pushes the deck over the top.

In most matchups where I'd want to answer 3cc spells, it usually comes out for sideboard cards (like Blue Elemental Blast). For example, Dragon Stompy and Goblins. However, there are matchups that use 3cc spells that you'd rather have Counterbalance still in it; Aggro Loam being one such deck. Now, I can definitely see advantages for wanting 3cc spells there, but the deck cannot fit enough 3cc spells into the deck to effectively hit the 3 spot. Again, 2 Vindicates in the 2 EE spots is worth testing.

I also know the arguments for Pernicious Deed over Wrath of God specifically for being a 3cc spell. My reasoning behind WoG over Deed is for the fact of synergy and simplicity. WoG is typically more mana effecient, has less foils to it, and doesn't blow up your own Counterbalance. It makes the manabase more stable, it dodges opposing Counterbalances better (moot point), so on and so forth. Having 4cc spells for Counterbalance is still relevant because there are still 4cc bombs worth stopping.

I'll take into consideration splashing black instead of green and running 2 MD Vindicates over EE's, and running EE's in the board. Besides those few possible changes, that maindeck has been nothing short of spectacular for me in every single game I play it in.

Quote:

---

@Hanni: I like your list a lot and I think I'll test it out. Cutting black will be tough for me, but I was probably using Vindicate as a crutch anyway to bail out bad play decisions. Is the Savannah necessary now that you're not running E. Dragon? I think I would rather have a 2nd Tropical Island, especially with 4 Counterbalance and 4 Counterspell, you'll want UU early on a consistent basis, and will usually have time before finding WW becomes relevant.

Also, how are the Goblins/Merfolk matchups without Engineered Plague out of the side? Explosives and CB are strong against Merfolk, but it seems like you'll be leaning heavily on Wrath in the Goblins matchup.

---

Well, if you're a big black splash advocate, just drop green for black. The only purpose for the green splash is Krosan Grip, which could instead become Vindicate. The Savannah is still nice given the fact that the deck runs a 4/2 split of Islands/Plains and you have just as many WW spells that you want to cast as UU. However, I'm not deadset on that and the Savannah could just as easily become another Tropical Island. Further playtesting would be more appropriate for that sort of decision.

Goblins does not need Engineered Plague. Between StP, BEB, Wrath, and even EE, the deck has boatloads of removal. Not saying that the matchup is fantastic, but the stable manabase alongside the plethora of removal should allow the deck to keep guys off the table, keep the life total high enough, draw enough cards, and get a solid defense going via Factory/Decree/Elspeth. I have not yet done sufficient testing against Merfolk with Landstill, so I'm not going to touch on that matchup much yet. However, I don't see why Counterbalance would be a bad card in that matchup given the amount of 1cc and 2cc spells (and 4cc too, right?) that they run.

Good advice Konsultant. Merfolk, Survival Elves, Goblins, Faeries, Slivers... These are all threats. Taking out the FoW is the right thing to do.

Klaus. I played your deck at my local event last week and we must be playing in different Metas. The spot removal clogged up my hand while I got overwhelmed by more control oriented cards like Counterbalance. I lost to elves pretty bad (I won first game through drawing tons of spot removal and getting land drops, but a resolved vial or Survival was GG). I had recurring mana curve issues throughout the night. And inconsistent draws resulting in mulligans. Ended up going 1-3, which is the worst I've done in a long time. My rating cried.

With the increasing amount of random Natural Order decks (or Natural Order splashes) I'm inclined to move back to running 3 WoG, 3 EE, 4 Swords.

I also prefer Landstill that is predominantly 2 colors, not 3 or 4. Mana curve issues ruin opening hands and open you up to mana denial. I like to be able to fetch basics and still cast what I'm holding. This is impossible when you run double white cards, with double blue cards, and vindicate.

Every time I test vindicate I don't find it as amazing as everyone says it is. It is slow, and does not always answer counterbalance. Each time I targeted a CB with it, it got countered (trinket mage, threads, shackles). But the same guy countered my EE that I spent 4 mana casting! (sower)

Hanni - consider plagues. It isn't so much about goblins, but it does make goblins even easier. Don't underestimate Faeries, Elves, Merfolk, or slivers!

Most of those decks have things that really make it hard for landstill. I've been running plagues recently and it is my favorite card right now, lol.

I run one underground sea and one Trop in the main + 2 mox diamond (most people criticize the mox right before a game they lose because of it)

SB is subject to change but is currently:

3 plague
2 Grip
3 relic
3 meddling mage
3 counterbalance
1 top

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CephalidBreakfast

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

---

I would urge playing 4x Plague's, I always stick with 4 and don't plan on ever changing it.

For side boarding and some thoughts on Ajani I would say read back a bunch of page's and you should find the information you are looking for.

Ichorid doesn't have to be an autoloss but would require a retooling of the entire SB for a match that you aren't really ever going to win game one. I'm not saying it isn't worth trying it and I have been testing different things out but you would need to make the post SB games close to 90% in your favor to be able to expect to win the round against it. Getting your chance's of winning up that high would require atleast 6-8 very relevent cards against the deck. While you can do it, it means you are taking away from other match's whitch probably isn't worth it. That said I have just recently made a breakthrough with my own SB that I will be playing at the GP whitch does have a realistic chance of beating Ichorid.

My list as of right now is the same for the MD as is the most recent post for it in this thread. The entire SB has been changed but due to the value of the surprise factor I won't be revealing it on the eve of the GP.

Good luck to all attending, my PM's are getting flooded with questions and various lists and I apologize to anybody I haven't been able to respond to yet but I will get to them in the very near future.

I've found myself recently wishing that the Krosan Grips in my board were Vindicates. In alot of matchups, the opponent has only 1 or 2 problematic artifacts/enchantments but alot of problematic creatures, and I can never find anything I want to drop for Krosan Grip and often don't side them in. Vindicate fixes that problem by lending far more versatility to my gameplan. Split second can sometimes be invaluable, but versatility can also be invaluable.

However, I'm still not sure if I want EE's maindeck and Vindicates sideboard, or vice versa. For now I'm still doing the EE's in the maindeck, but I still need to thoroughly test that. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the rest of the deck and I don't see myself making any changes to it anytime soon. I'm very pleased with Counterbalance Landstill and truly believe it is the best deck in the format.

I'm also considering Oblivion Ring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hanni

I've found myself recently wishing that the Krosan Grips in my board were Vindicates. In alot of matchups, the opponent has only 1 or 2 problematic artifacts/enchantments but alot of problematic creatures, and I can never find anything I want to drop for Krosan Grip and often don't side them in. Vindicate fixes that problem by lending far more versatility to my gameplan. Split second can sometimes be invaluable, but versatility can also be invaluable.

However, I'm still not sure if I want EE's maindeck and Vindicates sideboard, or vice versa. For now I'm still doing the EE's in the maindeck, but I still need to thoroughly test that. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the rest of the deck and I don't see myself making any changes to it anytime soon. I'm very pleased with Counterbalance Landstill and truly believe it is the best deck in the format.
I'm also considering Oblivion Ring.

---

Vindicate & Obliovion Ring are the 2 cards among those roughly 20.000 non-land cards out there that have have the biggest MD sign on their foreheads.
It's that simple: either maindeck them or leave em be. They are general answers to a broad spectrum of problems. Sideboard cards are supposed to be answers to specific problems that the MD can't deal with efficiently.
Krosan Grip being one of the prime examples here.

EE used to be a a popular SB card back in the day when Belcher.dec was played a lot. Today EE, just like Vindicate and O. Ring has become one of those "non-SB cards", too.

If you are going to play counterbalance in landstill wouldn't you be better of to go dreadstill? counterbalance seems to fit the cheap style of that deck better then it does in landstill i think, because the curve is lower. That makes it easier to set up cards for CB and gives you daze to protect CB.

Hanni, I know you're a good deckbuilder and I respect you as a player, but that's the worst goddamn counterbalance curve in existence. I know its a tempting, powerful tool but your deck simply cannot support it. Play something else in that slot. Spell snare is very good.

I like to play a more standard list with CB in the side and a few tops in the main... the configuration works out great for me.


As far as plague goes, I think that it would be a strong include for the current metagame (although maybe not entirely needed, it can help).

Playing mox diamond in landstill seem like a pretty bad idea

eats 2 slots.

sure, power a first turn standstill. Is it really that good? Is it worth the 2 slots?

Id rather have some more removal/counter with those 2 slots

About 3 colors :
with 1 eternal dragon and 1 crucible of worlds, you can fix up things. But i do agree that it can be a problem, but we only run 3 vindicate, so color should not be a problem. And vindicate versatility make nicely for the 3 color

Robert

my SB is
4 meddling mage (combo mainly)
3 relic of progenitus (ichorid usually. Threshold is not a problem with the MD)
3 perish (elves)
2 ajani goldmane
3 blue elemental blast

Here is my siding strategy against mirror match

-4 standstill (you can or not SB them out. If you dont, dont bring in the MM)
-2 wrath of god (not useful)
-2 humility (can be useful if they play goyfs and tombstalker)

+2 ajani goldmane (planeswalkers rock the mirror)
+4 meddling mage (meh)
+2 relic of progenitus (prevent them from abusing Crucible of worlds)

against burn : Its really hard, but the only way of winning is to get a quick ajani goldmane in play. Then, the game is stalled and you win that way.
-2 wrath of god
-4 swords to plowshare
-2 engineered explosives
+3 blue elemental blast
+2 ajani goldmane
+3 meddling mage

Against threshold :
-2 wrath of gold, +2 perish.

Against Dreadstill :
Not too sure. You can side out standstill, in which case you can bring in ajani goldmane and 2 meddling mage. (I dont like using standstill in the mirror)

Against merfolk :
-2 standstill
+2 ajani goldmane

against goblin :
-4 standstill
-1 spellsnare
+3 blue elemental blast
+2 ajani goldmane


Not sure if my sB strats work. But i did have some success locally.
Some people might disagree with the standstill going out. Ajani shines in the mirror, against aggro and against most deck using CB. It gives you some tempo (life gain) and can eventually turn into a big monster

Board Strategy

UWB Landstill -

Meddling Mage
Orims Chant
Ajani
E Plague
Relic

Ajani, E Plague is probably the Strongest Choice. Chant is Strong coupled with the Combo Field that is out there so if we do 4 Plague, 2 Ajani, 3 Chants that leaves 6 slots. Is Mage really that important or is Relic really that important because several other cards could be splashed around to make a few other match ups stronger.