[Deck] Zoo

For those of you that do run helix, what does your burn package look like? Are they basically a substitute for Chain Lightning? I tried Helix as a 2 of instead of Fireblast and they always felt clunky and slowed me down. I do like the idea of life gain especially with Sylvan on the board and the amount of fetches we run plus Horizon Canopy.

I think we've established that Zoo can handle it's own in the Mid-game, but when playing with Chain you get turn one Lynx(FoD, Kird Ape, etc.) go. Then on turn two Chain your guy, attack and then drop Nacatl. That seems like a much better play then just gain 3, kill random critter and attack with Lynx. In the early game is where we're strongest, no? Why not stay on their neck with even more pressure?

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/...cy-report-1st/

see the list there for helixes

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Originally Posted by Kird Ape

I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.

Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.

I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.

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First off, i figured our posts would get deleted.

And second, :cry:

And third, I run this little number of burn
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning

That's all ya need in my opinion. Some people run Fireblast as a random 2of, but i have always advocated against it.

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Originally Posted by Kird Ape

I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.

Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.

I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.

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You are more than welcome :) Its what I do. Hmm, I don't have a River Boa, sold em a long time ago. And stopping discussion .... 2 people don't make or break the discussion, just ignore them. People like Rico Suave are on my ignore list because they never add anything meaningful to a conversation, update the ignore list.

Won 4 Tarmogoyfs at the Blue Bell Legacy tourney yesterday. I didn't test a lot lately but I have 1.5 years of experience with this archetype. If I had tested more I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be playing the below list. Btw, 2 Taigas, cuz no one had another Taiga to lend me, so eff the Wizards reprint policy.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [CHK] Forest (2)
2 [CHK] Mountain (1)
3 [A] Plateau
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

how did the no path to exile treat you? i am too concerned about opposing goyfs and tombstalkers, etc to not play paths.

That is great that you won. Your build is a little aggressive for a "zoo" build, it almost looks like Sligh with Plains for Nacatl, Helix, and some SB stuff. How did having 4 Fireblasts treat you?

My interest is getting peaked about KotR. In my current list I'm running 3 Sylvan, 3 Horizon Canopy, and 2 Treetop Villages. I don't have any 3 drops and am going to test out -1 Sylvan -1 Canopy for 2 KotR. I think it is a mistake to run the Knight and not have some utility to go along with him. I have a 10 fetch package to feed him and I figure come mid game I can get more critters (Village), draw cards (Canopy) or pump up my Lynxes. How about the interaction between him and Sylvan? Not as good as top+fetch, but it will let us look at a fresh 3 the next turn.

I'm almost certain that I will not miss the Canopy, but I'm not so sure about the Library. Is anybody running something similar, I only slightly recall another member mentioning a utility package for the Knight, but I think they were suggesting a Wasteland or 2.

I honestly do not like the Treetop village / Wastelands builds, its just not Zoo.
Its some type of weird Naya control deck. Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?
I run 11 fetchlands and 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Library and 2 KoR.
Yesterday in the tournament I never even drew/cast KoR and still won.
I don't remember the last time I even had knight in play.

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Originally Posted by sauce

I honestly do not like the Treetop village / Wastelands builds, its just not Zoo.
Its some type of weird Naya control deck. Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?
I run 11 fetchlands and 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Library and 2 KoR.
Yesterday in the tournament I never even drew/cast KoR and still won.
I don't remember the last time I even had knight in play.

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Because Wastelands allow you to keep the game in the early game phase where Zoo wins, and gives you an inkling of chance against combo as a manascrew tool? Honestly, Wasteland has been played in Sligh-type decks and even more-so in more creature heavy aggro decks for as long as it has existed; the effect is just precisely what such a deck wants. And Treetop Village? If they topdeck an answer to your Knight, you'll look really silly if you didn't have anything to fetch, but if you fetched a Treetop or a Horizon Canopy, you are still a threat ahead even though they topdecked the answer. Against many removal-heavy decks, you don't play the tempo game but the "last threat in play"-game. This is also how the mirror works.

There are lots of weird conceptions about what "Zoo" means and the purity of archetype, but honestly, that's all pretty trivial. Either way, we're talking about an archetype that aims to reduce opponent's life to 0 ASAP and while using efficient removal and burn to deal with any potential obstacles and to speed up the clock. If the deck packs large amounts of burn and is prone to burning the face, it'll fall more under Sligh while if the primary gameplan is winning by swinging and the deck packs over 20 creatures, chances are it falls under Zoo/"Naya Deck Wins" (Red Deck Wins in Naya-colors, with pseudo-control elements to keep opponent off-balance long enough to win and using burn primarily as removal). Both can make great use of Wasteland, but neither has to. Wasteland should be treated as a spell, but a very efficient one at that due to the deck's speed. Knight+Waste is all pure bonus; it's an extremely powerful synergy but not the reason either card is in the deck.

The reason why Treetop is in the deck is simply to have a chance against an active counter/top. It slips in and puts pressure on them, helps out against mana denial, and with KotR, is another threat that gets played for basically free.

There were 2 instances where I thought Treetop was the nuts at SCG Richmond:
1) Pridemage go.
Standstill go.
Treetop Village go and proceed with beats until he had to break his own standstill; 4/4 trees ftw.

2) Ability to get G without having forests and allowed the zoo player (Hatfield) to avoid Submerge while he played his threats and easily won.


"Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?"

I think it has something to do with me being super ultra mega cheap and I want the most out of everything I buy/use. If I'm going to use a creature with an ability, I want to exploit it for all it's worth. The way I'm looking at it, I already have all the things in my deck that improve KotR (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy). So why not use KotR's ability that will improve my board, hand, super attack (Treetop, Horizon Canopy, Steppe Lynx) to it's fullest.

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Originally Posted by Kird Ape

I think it has something to do with me being super ultra mega cheap and I want the most out of everything I buy/use. If I'm going to use a creature with an ability, I want to exploit it for all it's worth. The way I'm looking at it, I already have all the things in my deck that improve KotR (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy). So why not use KotR's ability that will improve my board, hand, super attack (Treetop, Horizon Canopy, Steppe Lynx) to it's fullest.

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You realize you're using valuable spots in your deck for otherwise suboptimal choices because of 4 cards in your deck? This means that the times you don't draw your 4-off, or your 4-off gets countered/removed you're playing a suboptimal deck.

Based on my experience playing Extended Zoo, Treetop Village as a one of with KotR was a pretty good addition. I was never sad to see it.

I think Wasteland might be a solid addition for this deck, but that would require a huge overhaul on the manabase. You'd probably have cut the white down to a minimum and play more like a RG sligh deck.

And we all know how deadly a deck with fast beats, efficient burn AND solid land destruction is. :eek:

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Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya

Based on my experience playing Extended Zoo, Treetop Village as a one of with KotR was a pretty good addition. I was never sad to see it.

I think Wasteland might be a solid addition for this deck, but that would require a huge overhaul on the manabase. You'd probably have cut the white down to a minimum and play more like a RG sligh deck.

And we all know how deadly a deck with fast beats, efficient burn AND solid land destruction is. :eek:

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I don't think you should treat them as lands but as spells. You don't have to change your manabase that way (or play a different deck)

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Originally Posted by Kird Ape

There were 2 instances where I thought Treetop was the nuts at SCG Richmond:
1) Pridemage go.
Standstill go.
Treetop Village go and proceed with beats until he had to break his own standstill; 4/4 trees ftw.

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Why on earth would he play a Standstill if you have a Pridemage out? Or did he have a bigger creature than 3/3 on the board?

It seems like Stirring Wildwood might be better then Treetop. obviously costs one more to activate, but doesn't trade with Nimble, Mishra's Factory or Wild nacatl (or even a 3/x folk). Fixes your mana a bit also.

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Originally Posted by Nelis

I don't think you should treat them as lands but as spells. You don't have to change your manabase that way (or play a different deck)



Why on earth would he play a Standstill if you have a Pridemage out? Or did he have a bigger creature than 3/3 on the board?

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the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

The idea is that a singleton manland to along with KotR gives Zoo more options. It turns dead midgame lands into threats, pretty nice in the mirror and against control decks.

"the standstill player was clearly terrible"

I'm sorry guys, I forgot to add that he had a mishra out and was clearly trying to bait the Zoo player into using the Pridemage on Standstill.

"You realize you're using valuable spots in your deck for otherwise suboptimal choices because of 4 cards in your deck? This means that the times you don't draw your 4-off, or your 4-off gets countered/removed you're playing a suboptimal deck."

I read this like 5 times and I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. What it seems like you are saying is that 1 or more of the 5 cards I named (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy, Treetop, Steppe Lynx) are bad and or dependant on KotR. KotR isn't even in my current build.... Could you please explain exactly what I'm running (I haven't posted a deck list) that is suboptimal.

All I'm saying is I already run Lynx (4), Fireblast(2), Treetop(2), Canopy(3), and Sylvan (3). So I drop a Canopy and a Library to pick up 2 KotR.

"it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially"

If you have a crap hand like that, there is no shame in the T1 Treetop. T2 leaves you open for Goyf or Nacatl and Lavamancer/Lynx/FoD. I'm running 24 lands and the 2 of Treetop did not slow me down all day at SCG Richmond. Hatfield ran 3 and he didn't have troubles either. In the 3 solid days of testing prior, neither of us had issues. The treetop isn't counted as a land, we counted them as spells. Getting G is just a bonus.

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Originally Posted by sauce

the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

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Yeah I feel the same. For every random win you'll also have a random lose.

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Originally Posted by sauce

the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

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That argument applies to all non-basics. Simply though, Treetop is the most effective manland in print and simply means you don't keep hands where it's your only source. Extended Zoo has been running it to great effect. When you try to win the game by beats, adding an extra threat that doubles as a land and can be found via. Knight is a great way to ensure you have enough gas to take the removal and get in there.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

1. That argument applies to all non-basics.
2. Simply though, Treetop is the most effective manland in print and simply means you don't keep hands where it's your only source. Extended Zoo has been running it to great effect. When you try to win the game by beats, adding an extra threat that doubles as a land and can be found via. Knight is a great way to ensure you have enough gas to take the removal and get in there.

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1. Why? The other non-basics do not come into play tapped.

2. You don't keep hands with one land anyway. But now you can also not keep a two land hand with Treetop.

Today I played in a local tournament (60 Participants) with the Hatfield version with treeptop village, Lynx, etc... I did top 8, only losing in round 4 againts goblins, and in top 8 againts counterbalance-natural order deck.

I really love to have swords to plowshares in side board, and sylvan libraries did their job, in round 5 I drew 5 extra cards againts bant:)

Zoo is a solid option with a tons of very good match ups in the metagame.

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Originally Posted by Nelis

1. Why? The other non-basics do not come into play tapped.

2. You don't keep hands with one land anyway. But now you can also not keep a two land hand with Treetop.

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I was referring to the Moon/Magus/Waste-list. You can often "sneak" it into the play tapped without costing you much tempo. A 2-lander with Treetop is a fine keep if you didn't have a 1-drop anyways (those hands can be keepable in some circumstances). And yeah, it'll occasionally be problematic, but we have a pretty damn good manabase; hell, we even run basics in the deck specifically 'cause we can afford few single-colored mana sources.

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Originally Posted by Nelis

1. Why? The other non-basics do not come into play tapped.

2. You don't keep hands with one land anyway. But now you can also not keep a two land hand with Treetop.

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Technically the Treetops aren't counted as lands, we cut spells for them. The reality is that you're adding more lands (24 in my build) and you might start to flood mid-game, this is exactly why Knight shines, he can turn extra lands into cards or manlands. So, I guess if you want to split hairs you aren't tossing out a 2 land hand. It's still a one lander.

Sunday night is testing night and I'm going to play as many games as I can with the new configuration and we'll see if it impacts any matchups. I'll try to post up any results I remember when I get home.

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Originally Posted by Kird Ape

Technically the Treetops aren't counted as lands, we cut spells for them. The reality is that you're adding more lands (24 in my build) and you might start to flood mid-game, this is exactly why Knight shines, he can turn extra lands into cards or manlands. So, I guess if you want to split hairs you aren't tossing out a 2 land hand. It's still a one lander.

Sunday night is testing night and I'm going to play as many games as I can with the new configuration and we'll see if it impacts any matchups. I'll try to post up any results I remember when I get home.

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Ok agreed, if you treat them as we talked about Wastelands then I can agree.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

I was referring to the Moon/Magus/Waste-list. You can often "sneak" it into the play tapped without costing you much tempo. A 2-lander with Treetop is a fine keep if you didn't have a 1-drop anyways (those hands can be keepable in some circumstances). And yeah, it'll occasionally be problematic, but we have a pretty damn good manabase; hell, we even run basics in the deck specifically 'cause we can afford few single-colored mana sources.

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Oh sorry. I wasn't paying attention.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

I was referring to the Moon/Magus/Waste-list. You can often "sneak" it into the play tapped without costing you much tempo. A 2-lander with Treetop is a fine keep if you didn't have a 1-drop anyways (those hands can be keepable in some circumstances). And yeah, it'll occasionally be problematic, but we have a pretty damn good manabase; hell, we even run basics in the deck specifically 'cause we can afford few single-colored mana sources.

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Oh sorry. I wasn't paying attention.

Where I can find the Hatfield version and the list with magus + wastelands?

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

That argument applies to all non-basics. Simply though, Treetop is the most effective manland in print and simply means you don't keep hands where it's your only source. Extended Zoo has been running it to great effect. When you try to win the game by beats, adding an extra threat that doubles as a land and can be found via. Knight is a great way to ensure you have enough gas to take the removal and get in there.

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not all extended zoo runs the treetop, tribal zoo for example doesnt.
fast zoo should never run slow come into play "spells"

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Originally Posted by JamesTheSmoker

Where I can find the Hatfield version and the list with magus + wastelands?

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E.g. here or by scrolling few pages back in this thread. Or searching for "Hatfield" in this thread, probably.

Magus-version, eh? Haven't seen well-finishing lists with MoM yet. As for Waste, Sven Dijt's list is nice as is Brain Six's; though Six's is more Sligh-style.

Yeah I like his list but I'm more comfortable playing my 'own' list. He said he would definitely play a 4th Wasteland main next time and he would cut another burn spell for it. As well add the 4th Knight of the Reliquary. ( http://www.kvdeckmasters.org/Forum/i...?topic=13070.0 [dutch] )

I also like he did the opposite of what a lot of people in this thread agree on (even though I don't). He plays a 5th 'Kird Ape' (2 Kird Ape & 3 Loam Lion) instead of cutting a few Apes (and not replace them with Loam Lions).

BTW when it comes to Madrid and StarCityGames.com $5,000 Legacy Open tournament in Richmond decklists it appears that it doesn't matter that much what version of zoo you play if you want to make top 8. see: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=31518 (compare decklists at the bottom of the page)

So we might as well stop posting in this thread.:tongue:

i mean if you want to destroy lands and such, why not also run terravore alongside knight of reliquary and some life from the loam, tranquil thickets and some seismic assaults...

oh wait thats a deck called aggro loam.
its going to be the new big thing Aggro Zoo Loam.

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Originally Posted by sauce

i mean if you want to destroy lands and such, why not also run terravore alongside knight of reliquary and some life from the loam, tranquil thickets and some seismic assaults...

oh wait thats a deck called aggro loam.
its going to be the new big thing Aggro Zoo Loam.

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Waste as a tempo card in a deck topping out with 2-3 3-drops and Waste as a gameplan in a deck built around 3-drops are two very different things; Waste just happens to be a card that suits both.

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Originally Posted by Nelis

BTW when it comes to Madrid and StarCityGames.com $5,000 Legacy Open tournament in Richmond decklists it appears that it doesn't matter that much what version of zoo you play if you want to make top 8. see: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=31518 (compare decklists at the bottom of the page)

So we might as well stop posting in this thread.:tongue:

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I know...At GP Madrid I was 8-1 the in Day1 losing only by Marcio Carvalho and then I did a beautiful 0-4 in Day2, and my decklist was totally different from those in top8.

I posted my last results and decklists 2 pages ago, but nobody of you seems interested to talk about these, and I'm so afraid of that, 'cause I wish to learn something from your different opinions 'bout the deck.

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Originally Posted by JamesTheSmoker

I know...At GP Madrid I was 8-1 the in Day1 losing only by Marcio Carvalho and then I did a beautiful 0-4 in Day2, and my decklist was totally different from those in top8.

I posted my last results and decklists 2 pages ago, but nobody of you seems interested to talk about these, and I'm so afraid of that, 'cause I wish to learn something from your different opinions 'bout the deck.

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The things that stand out about your deck to me is the lack of PtE and the inclusion of 3 main deck PoP (which is not bad but random)...
also why the singleton jotun grunt?

I dunno if 3 teegs is needed main, I mean i guess its techy vs AnT/Belcher, but I run 2 myself main.

I'd prolly go to 2 PoP and 2 Teeg and run 2 PtE main...

How about running a singleton of Natural Order and Progen? Anyone tried this? Well, if it sounds stupid then forget it. Anyways, havent played this deck for a while since I T4'ed a year-end tournament last December. Its been almost 3 months now, LOL. Im planning to attend another big tournament this weekend with practically the same list except that im changing 3 Firespouts in the SB to 3 Teegs due to my STUPID loss to ANT and dropping 1 Chain and 1 Bolt in favor of 2 Fireblasts. Heres the list below. Id like you guys to comment if its still the optimal build for Zoo. Predicted meta is Goblins, ProBant and Merfolk.

2 Arid Mesa
3 Windswepth Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest

Spells
4 Path to Exile
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Chain Lightning
4 Kird Ape
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Lightning Helix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Fireblast

SB/
3 Firespout (WILL CHANGE TO 3 Teegs!!!!!!!!!)
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Krosan Grip

I like 2 Wing shards in my board, maybe 3 is the right number though if you're playing vs Reanimator/Progenitus, its just a house.

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Originally Posted by sauce

The things that stand out about your deck to me is the lack of PtE and the inclusion of 3 main deck PoP (which is not bad but random)...
also why the singleton jotun grunt?

I dunno if 3 teegs is needed main, I mean i guess its techy vs AnT/Belcher, but I run 2 myself main.

I'd prolly go to 2 PoP and 2 Teeg and run 2 PtE main...

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I run 4 PtE maindeck, maybe tou didn't saw them in the lists...
However, now I play always 3 Gaddock but no more PoP cause MU are changing. I can't side out Gaddock 'cause ANT here is a tier1 very played, like Naturale Order in bant.

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Originally Posted by DCTopTeam

Id like you guys to comment if its still the optimal build for Zoo. Predicted meta is Goblins, ProBant and Merfolk.

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You have to auto include 4 Grim Lavamancer in main, mvp vs tribal decks.

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Originally Posted by kiwi

You have to auto include 4 Grim Lavamancer in main, mvp vs tribal decks.

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And I was thinking of putting in Goblin Guides instead of Mancers, LOL!

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Originally Posted by DCTopTeam

And I was thinking of putting in Goblin Guides instead of Mancers, LOL!

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Honestly, the only time I've ever been sad to see Grim Lavamancer has been against ANT; and those matches you generally win or lose based on other cards anyways. I'd never play any less than 4.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Honestly, the only time I've ever been sad to see Grim Lavamancer has been against ANT; and those matches you generally win or lose based on other cards anyways. I'd never play any less than 4.

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I agree, I love lavamancer, he makes combat so unfair

Lavamancer is one of the most important cards of the deck. I agree with that, but sometimes it might be to slow especially if you are running a tempo-oriented list. I tend to play 3 Lavamancer and 1 in SB for tribal matchups.