Could someone explain why Ancient Grudge is played over Pithing Needle as an answer to artifact based graveyard hate? To me it Needle just seems better.
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Could someone explain why Ancient Grudge is played over Pithing Needle as an answer to artifact based graveyard hate? To me it Needle just seems better.
Ancient Grudge doesn't have to be in your opening hand, as it can be dredged. And it answers more than usual artifact-based hate, namely Ensnaring Bridge and Batterskull as usual targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
But, Pithing Needle seems strong if you feel like people are only bringing Crypt/Relic.
My primary concern is that grudge doesn't deal with Crypt/Relic properly since they can still activate them in response to Ancient Grudge and still leave you with nothing, or am I missing something?
The problem arises when you don't know which they are using or if they run a split of relic/crypt. It's pretty awesome when you t1 needle on relic and they drop a crypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
You have to look at it this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
It's right that Grudge can't prevent them from exiling your graveyard if you dredge into it. Still it's great for you if you force them to use their hate as soon as you dredge into the Grudge. You mostly don't lose a lot and can just restart your engine with a discard outlet.
Pithing Needle deals with the hate entirely. However, it has to be in your opening hand. Don't forget that Ancient Grudge can also be in your opening hand, at which point it also deals with their hate right away and before they get the chance to use it at all.
Also, most people diversify their hate, so as stated above, Needle could be entirely useless if you name the wrong card.
After all, Grudge is at least as good as Needle in your opener and much better if you dredge into it. That should make it clear why you should really go with Grudges.
As a sidenote. If I really wanted a Needle-type effect, I'd probably run Null Rod instead. That would stop all kinds of artifact based hate as well as fast mana of combo decks and Affinity.
Purify the Grave and Coffin Purge may be better than Memory's Journey. The mana cost matters. Even if Memory's Journey is blue (making more of your mana base relevant to hardcasting it), the CC matters more (otherwise cards like Tolarian Winds would see far more play). This is the sort of card that you often want to be hardcasting, flashing back only when necessary - otherwise you telegraph your play, and then a counterwall becomes more relevant. Speaking of which, 1cc cards will play around Daze and Spell snare more effectively. Additionally, you are more likely to be able to hardcast + flashback (in the same turn) when it only costs 1 to hardcast, which matters if they do happen to counter the hardcast but lack a counter for the flashback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum
Obviously, exiling your card is not nearly as good as shuffling it back. You also get to do more than just protect one card from Surgical Extraction, you can also put back Narco's. On the flipside, working as hate, I'd prefer exile.
peace,
4eak
By the way, if my opponent targets an Ichorid with Surgical, and I exile it with Coffin Purge in response, the Surgical fizzles, right? Even if I have more Ichorids?
If so, then probably Purge/Purify the Grave is better indeed.
Correct. After you purge, Extraction doesn't have a legal target anymore, so it fizzles. This is what enables Memory's Journey to work against Surgical Extraction as well. Furthermore, even if you had multiple Ichorids in you GY, you wouldn't Memory's Journey the untargeted Ichorids (that would slow you down for no good reason) - Surgical Extraction can't 'change targets'. The target you chose when putting a spell/ability on the stack must be the same target when you try to resolve it. You only need to find a way to get rid of the targeted Ichorid.Quote:
By the way, if my opponent targets an Ichorid with Surgical, and I exile it with Coffin Purge in response, the Surgical fizzles, right? Even if I have more Ichorids?
peace,
4eak
I like the idea on Coffin Purge, Anyone else tested it and can share? Looks useful against reanimator as well.
@4eak: Got it, thanks.
@Gui: Yeah, that looks great, but against Reanimator you'll probably want at least 1 Coffin Purge in the early game, that makes it's number of slots required at least about 3. I don't think we can afford wasting those 3 slots. I still prefer Chain of Vapor as a Leyline-hate and also an option against Reanimator.
If Surgical extraction (in addition to Snapcaster) continues to be played in large numbers, I think we can easily spare 3 slots. If they hit both Bridge & Ichorid, especially early in the game, it can be very difficult to win. Snapcaster really helps decks reach that critical mass (which may just need to be 2 extractions in many cases) early and consistently.
peace,
4eak
Purify the Grave and Coffin Purge seems tricky, and Surgical Extraction is by far the most used hate nowdays.
I'd say that we could remove some combination of Nature's Claim and Rays for it.
Something like this:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Coffin Purge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Dread Return (if playing 1 md)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
@Vandalize
Playing just 3 Nature's Claim seems a bit risky, since we almost always want at least one of them in our opening hand. I'd remove the second Elesh Norn in order the open this slot. I really don't think 2 Elesh Norn is needed.
How do people feel about keeping enablers in the sideboard? I was thinking I could keep Firestorm in the sideboard to add for aggro matches. Is this viable or do we need to commit that much space for hate cards?
Of course we can. Firestorm in the side has been a good plan for ages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
We definitely need anti hate, though. I can see myself going down to 3 Ancient Grudges now that people like to play Extraction over Relic/Crypt/Spellbomb. I'll always keep at least 4-5 answers to Leyline in there. 1-2 DR Targets against combo and one permanent killer should also be included imho.
That said, I'd play something along the lines of this:
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Wispmare
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Realm Razer
4 flex slots (Coffin Purge/Purify the Grave, Firestorm and Leyline of the Void for instance)
Oh, btw. Coffin Purge >>> Purify the grave. It looks much better with the old frame AND people don't know that card as much as they know the t2 card.
@Izor: Do you think Coffin Purge is better than Leyline of the Void, against Reanimator and Snapcaster? I don't like Leyline at all, for the record.
As a permanent killer, my favorite is Angel of Despair, and btw, i didn't see any in your list.
Elesh Norn seems to be a good DR target as well.
I don't know if Coffin Purge is better, for I haven't been able to test that enough. It really seems solid though. You can Purge your own card in resp to Extraction and thus save the remaining three in your deck/grave. And if they try to Snapcaster it back, you can even prevent that from happening entirely.
I don't like Leyline at all too. I've only played it once and that was in a metagame with 4 Dredge and two Reanimator decks out of 20 or so.
Oh, and Realm Razer is my permanent killer in this case. He beats Enchantress and Lands.dec all by himself. And Wispmare has the double role of being my 5th Claim vs Leyline as well as being my permanent killer against Moat, Enchantress and all that stuff. It can be cast for 1, and be DRed later. AoD is fine though. Wispmare + Razer is just a little tech I've come to like a lot.
I don't like Elesh that much tbh. She definitely is good against a variety of decks. My problem is that I usually want to sb something else as well and that would usually mean I board out a DR. By boarding in Elesh I have to keep my DR in and lose two slots. At that point I'd usually rather keep my enablers and draw effects high.
Yeah, maybe with Sneak and Show out of the field Realm Razer could be a decent option.
Here in Brazil I'm expecting some Emrakuls, so I opted for Angel instead.
I'm gonna play Nationals this Sunday with this sideboard:
4x Nature's Claim/ Chain of Vapor (not decided yet)
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Iona
1x Elesh Norn
1x Angel of Despair
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
3x Purify the Grave (easier to find than Coffin Purge)
Standard list with 2 DR and Firestorm over Tribe. I'll play the second DR in the main over the 4th Ichorid because I needed it's slot in SB in order to fit Purify the Grave.
@4eak: You were right, Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction is just too powerful.
I recommend this SB:
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Dredge can and should devote most of its sideboard to answering GY-hate. GY-hate, in its various forms, is the major barrier this deck faces.
I cannot recommend playing 6-7 answers to Leyline enough. You expect to open with answers to the card and still have gas to win in a timely fashion - playing 4 is not enough. Don't rely upon getting lucky, build to win.
Until I can find a better answer to Surgical Extraction/Snapcaster (or this form of hate declines), I'm stuck with Coffin Purge. I'm still not in love with the card.
These are the only DR targets that automatically make my list. At this point, I need a really convincing reason to play other targets.
peace,
4eak
@4eak: I would squeeze in a permanent destroyer: AoD, or Primus, elephat man. Against lands,thopter foundry, enchantress, or something off the wall like Stax you really need something.
I would even say a permanent destroyer is more important than elesh or Iona.
Elesh is good versus the mirror. But against the other tribal decks(cept merfolk which most people don't side her in anyway) you are usually favored anyway. It's quite often a win more card,especially if you are sporting firestorm main.
Iona I haven't been impressed with lately. Most decks can deal with her quickly, even something like enchantress. I know she is meant for anti combo,but I think Sadistic Hippie is better in that slot. Sadistic Hippie + Cabal Therapies= tough storming. Ant has unusually easy time bouncing Iona.
But yeah find some guy to kill permanents.
Your sideboard contains 16 cards, 4eak.
Perhaps the 4th Grudge should be cut, because Relic and Tormod has lost space in the meta, and 3 Grudges can deal with them and Batterskull.
Don't you think the Hypnotist is needed against combo? Often only 1 target is not enough, and the Storm matchup is really tough.
Yeah, that is supposed to be 3x Grudge.
The 2nd DR target is a marginal improvement, but the storm combo match (the combo that actually gives this deck serious problems) isn't worth the slot. You get so much more bang for the slot answering metagames in which Dredge actually belongs. I don't play this deck when I expect storm. If I want an anti-blue deck in a metagame with storm, I play Merfolk.Quote:
Don't you think the Hypnotist is needed against combo? Often only 1 target is not enough, and the Storm matchup is really tough.
Stax, lands, enchantress are about the only decks where I side in permanent destroyers. I very, very rarely face these decks. It isn't worth the slot. Furthermore, for Stax and Enchantress, I have other cards which are still relevant and consistently available. Correctly built sideboards take into account both how much a card improves your matchup and how often you'll see that matchup in a tournament. Even if you have a card which absolutely hoses Stax and Enchantress, the card may not be worth running if there are extremely low odds of encountering those decks. E.g. I'd rather increase my odds of winning by 10% in 30% of my matchups than 50% in 1% of my matchups.Quote:
I would even say a permanent destroyer is more important than elesh or Iona.
Elesh is probably still worth it. It isn't just about being favored, it is about being greatly favored. I think Elesh isn't winmore, it does improve my odds of winning against a number of (semi-common) decks.Quote:
Elesh is good versus the mirror. But against the other tribal decks(cept merfolk which most people don't side her in anyway) you are usually favored anyway. It's quite often a win more card,especially if you are sporting firestorm main.
Iona isn't always an autowin, however, even decks which can answer or play around her, she is still a serious stumbling block. Iona isn't meant for just storm; it is useful in a fairly wide set of matchups, significantly wider than Sadistic Hippie. Iona is the closest thing to a 'catchall' that this deck has.Quote:
Iona I haven't been impressed with lately. Most decks can deal with her quickly, even something like enchantress. I know she is meant for anti combo,but I think Sadistic Hippie is better in that slot. Sadistic Hippie + Cabal Therapies= tough storming. Ant has unusually easy time bouncing Iona.
peace,
4eak
Is your list still the one with PImps over SWs, 4eak? Could you post it?
One last advice, guys: How can I fit 6-7 anti-leyline cards after G1?
Siding 3 or 4 is easy, but 6 is a difficult choice.
@4eak: For the moment I only have Dredge as an option for the tournament, and that's why I was looking for an answer to Storm-combo. Guess I'm just staying with Iona + Hypnotist.
The fact that Iona is rarely an autowin is why I'm thinking of replacing her. What decks do you believe Iona is greater than Sadistic Hippie? Hippie is good versus control decks of all sorts and all combo. EDIT: Maybe against burn Iona is better?Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Also, I found numberous DR targets against storm isn't worth it. Siding in too much against storm actually dilutes your chance of cabal theraping them a bunch on turn two. 4eak is right when he said you don't want to devote too much to matchup that can just kill us on turn one anyway.
I continue to go the DDD-route. Few share that strategy, and so my decklist is not going to be relevant to those folks. My list hasn't changed much.
// Lands - 14
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
// Pure Discard Outlets - 7
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Putrid Imp
// Draw/Discard - 8
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
// GY-Goodies - 18
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Obviously, it is fairly close to the standard list, tweaked for DDDing. Before I started running Coffin Purge, I had 4 Tireless Tribe in the sideboard. TT is nice, but not necessary. Admittedly, I think Coffin Purge is stronger in the standard list.
It depends on the matchup. Candidates for siding out:Quote:
One last advice, guys: How can I fit 6-7 anti-leyline cards after G1?
Siding 3 or 4 is easy, but 6 is a difficult choice.
1-4x Breakthrough (often sided out)
1x Darkblast (I side this less out in DDD-Hybrid, but often in Standard)
1x Golgari Thug (I run 4, so going to 3 can be acceptable in some matchups)
1-2x Dread Return (usually only 1)
1x Ichorid (if you aren't going to strongly rely upon grinding with them)
1x Cephalid Coliseum (uncommon)
I'm not going to list decks because I'm lazy (there are ~100 decks worth considering in Legacy).Quote:
What decks do you believe Iona is greater than Sadistic Hippie? Hippie is good versus control decks of all sorts and all combo. EDIT: Maybe against burn Iona is better?
Hippie is good versus dedicated control decks, but it isn't as impressive against aggro-control decks which are much quicker to empty their hands for the sake of tempo.
Discard has serious diminishing returns in a format with Brainstorm, Ponder and Top. There are decks with combos which honestly survive a hippie, and almost all combo decks can still 'pull it out of their ass' after we've emptied their hand (particularly if they've had time, and they usually do, to develop their board).
There are a non-trivial number of games where I can DR, but I won't have creatures afterwards. Sadistic can sac itself, but that is very weak. I think the card needs at least 1 other creature on the table to be impressive. Iona gets there when you are down, and Sadistic often doesn't.
Iona is a better catchall against both combo and the X% of the field which is random (and Legacy wonderfully has a significant portion of randoms - note that random doesn't necessarily mean 'bad'). You get a lot of bang for the slot. Unlike other DR-targets, Iona is not nearly as specified. It is closer to a jack-of-all-trades than the master of one. That said, it happens to have the bonus of being a specialist against mono-colored decks.
peace,
4eak
*4eaks: your list is pretty awesome!
But why a 4th thug instead of a 4th gorian?
When you are DDDing, you are looking to maximize the chance of opening a hand with a dredger. If you don't open with a dredger, then you are unlikely to be able to DDD. Sometimes you'll keep the hand anyways, as it may have enough draw/discard spells to allow you to accept a non-dredger hand (which is true for standard lists and the regular, non-DDD approach as well). More times than not, however, if you don't open with a dredger, then you will mulligan.
Mulligans are marginally more painful for the DDD strategy, but this is offset by the fact that the DDD strategy doesn't mulligan very often - it is very consistent. But, when you do, you have an increased chance of being timewalked (as you may need to draw to 8). When you do mulligan, you'll often be able to play out as the standard approach (not DDDing), but the difference in 4 Tireless Tribes makes it a slightly less consistent strategy than the standard approach.
I don't want to be mulliganing in any case, and maximizing dredgers is really the key to preventing mulligans.
As much as I like having 4 Phantasmagorians, going to 3 is not terrible. There are diminishing returns to Phantasmagorian. Although, I want to point out that the DReturns aren't as profound as most would believe -- having 2 Phantasmagorians is still good. If anything, I'd be more willing to drop a Phant for another Dredger than a Dredger for another Phant. Even just 2 Phant's gives you excellent odds of eventually being able to dump your hand without worrying about casting and resolving spells. That said, when I play only 2, I find myself longing for Phant to show up earlier than it does all too often - hence the 3rd Phant. 3 is an acceptable balance, and easily worth the consistency provided by the 4th Thug.
peace,
4eak
I see.
Thanks for the explanation.
Now, am I wrong to say that we loose badly to storm?
I mean, our only means to win is Iona, virtually online only in g2 and g3...
That's not true, actually. A clock + Cabal Therapy named by a smart pilot can give Storm quite a headache. And Dredge is fast by nature, so all you have to do in G1 is try to race, or disrupt them with well targeted Cabal Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by indefinite.soul
I'd say that Cabal Therapy must follow two kinds of paths against storm:
If they start with Land -> Duress, and you're still able to Cabal Therapy them somehow, just name some kind of acceleration, like Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond and Cabal Ritual (this last one, only if you're playing against ANT).
If they start with Land -> Cantrip, aim for enablers, like Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Doomsday. If you fail, try to aim their acceleration again.
Post-board, side out some Ichorids (I usually keep 2 against ANT), and add DR targets that can give you some breathing (like Iona, Sadistic). NEVER side out Breakthrough in these matches, because speed is pretty much everything you can try to do.
And Iona must always name Black, and in non-trivial cases, Blue.
The problem with the DDD route, that is 4eak's idea, at least for this moment in legacy, is exactly that you can't place a clock on storm, unless you open with dredge + land + break.
That way, you also have to find the right things, only to be able disrupt, since no fatties MD.
So, turn 2. Turn 3 is simply not enought. He WILL have you killed by that time.
Anyway, I am not complainning. I find 4eak's list as good as it can get by now. At least for this archetype.
Since it's becoming fairly common for people to diversify their hate, wouldn't it also be in our interest to diversify our answers? Going for a 2:2 split between Coffin Purge and Purify the Grave. But wouldn't Faerie Macabre Serve the better purpose in this case? It slows opposing grave based decks while being food for our Ichorid.
Diversifying is fine, a 2/2 split makes sense, particularly as Surgical extractions on a 4x answer (if you are tapped out) would make subsequent extractions safe.
As to Faerie Macabre, no. You have to open/draw Faerie Macabre. It can't be used from the graveyard. Flashback is key.
peace,
4eak
@4eak. If you were running the standard list by which i mean the stock list what would your sb look like? I'm just curios as to how it differs from your current DDD sb list.
My sideboard, for now, is the same for both Hybrid and Standard lists. This shouldn't be too surprising. Part of the reason to play a Hybrid instead of Manaless dredge is that you have gain access to the same sideboard available to the Standard list.
The only serious possible difference in the sideboard is Tireless Tribe. I have been keeping 3-4 TT in the sb of the Hybrid, but for now, Purge/Purify are taking TT's place. I consider Standard lists to have preboarded Tireless tribes. At best, I look at this as a sacrifice in consistency in game 1 for more sideboard space. At worst, I think TT isn't necessary.
If you must have 4x TT, but you are willing to keep them in the side, then I'd build the sideboard either like this:
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tireless Tribe
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
or like this:
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tireless Tribe
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge (I love having this at 4, as there are so many targets, but it is not necessary, even if desired, against Crypt/Relic)
I think the Hybrid's game 1 is substantially better than Standard list's game 1. Games 2 and 3, the Hybrid list can side/transform into (approximately) a standard list with anti-GY hate. Until I had been using Purge/Purify, I felt that the space created by pre-siding generated nothing of value, but I see some value in it (although, not enough to change my gameplan). Outside of Purge/Purify, the usual sideboard losses for the Hybrid are DR-targets, but I am disenchanted with DR-targets in general.
I see lists with upwards of 4 to 6 DR-targets in the 75, which is ridiculous. This deck is a lot stronger when it concentrates on anti-GY hate instead of DR targets. I do not fear Leyline or Wheel, in fact, this is my preferred GY-hate to face in many matchups. That's how much of a difference moving from DR-targets to focusing on anti-GY hate has been for me. Dredge has a notoriously good game 1, and the primary difference between between pre and post side games is GY-hate. Focus on answering GY-hate, and you'll find yourself back in game 1 shoes more often.
peace,
4eak
LoL, did you read his list?? I just felt curious....Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Okay guys, I have been doing a little playtesting lately and here are some random findings.
Fairie Macbre might be better than coffin purge. Few reasons why:
1. Can't be countered,obviously.
2. Costs zero mana opposed to one/two. You don't want to be on the defense with one mana open. Odds are you will have only one or two lands and keeping one land constantly untapped slows down our tempo a bunch.
3. Coffin Purge can be cast from graveyard, however the decks you want graveyard hate against the most(mirror or reanimator) you need the hate in one of the first couple of turns anyway. It is very hard to keep your tempo and dig for a coffin purge and have one mana open(intentional run on).
Also, random side note: reanimator isn't as bad as I first thought. They need entomb(snag archon or elesh) + reanimation spell + countermagic to clench it versus us. Even then having graveyard hate greatly helps in games 2/3.
Random thoughts there, feel free to disagree.
It really depends on the match up and what version you are running as far as side boarding goes. I usually board in 5 to 6 cards every game. Three to four anti hate cards and then I swap my main deck zealot and sphinx for 2 relevant DR targets. My goal in games 2 and 3 is to grind them out, then either dread return one of my DR targets or grind them out with ichorids. Excluding storm combo, belcher, ect., my board outs are always 4 breakthrough, then sphinx, then zealot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
As far as DR targets to help with storm, look at ancestor's chosen. It usually puts you up to at least 40 health, making it nearly impossible for storm to kill you.
I have to agree with you, 4eak. I was playing Faerie Macabre in my board at KC and it did stonecold nothing for the most part. I believe it stopped one surgical extraction in all 10 rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Ancestor Chosen is good versus combo, it is even great versus burn and zoo. It is no longer in my sideboard because it isn't versatile enough. Also, it won't stop odd combos like hive mind, high tide, or sneak and show.Quote:
Originally Posted by dredgekid