Simple rule - playing miracle mean playing Terminus (this is the strength of this deck) playing Terminus along with creature which doesn't bring CA on enter the battlefield mean doing 2-1 so don't try to play them both.
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Simple rule - playing miracle mean playing Terminus (this is the strength of this deck) playing Terminus along with creature which doesn't bring CA on enter the battlefield mean doing 2-1 so don't try to play them both.
Speaking of non-value creatures... lol... I haven't been a big fan of them in the past, but lately I've been reconsidering Geists as an option against GBx. In conjunction with Leylines (to stop Liliana) and RIP (to stop Goyf), perhaps Geist from the board is worth looking at again?
Is there anywhere I can find a general sideboarding guide for this deck?
Finding cards to bring in is easy, but it is never knowing what to cut.
What decks would you take out Helm? Would you ever cut the number of entreats to bring in more answers? Against a deck with 4 DRS but no other grave use, do you still need 3 RIP or can you cut one?
These are just the things that come off the top of my head.
Someone probably needs to update the primer one of these days...
Against combo, you can side out Swords and some Terminus (depending on what). Depending on what they are and how much you have to bring in, you can board out some or all of the RIP package.
Against combo you leave in Force and against tempo and hard control I'll leave in a couple FoW, but against everything else you can pretty much board them out.
Against decks with a lot of burn or redundancy, you can board out Cliques.
Occasionally I'll board out a RIP if they don't use the graveyard at all or are only somewhat reliant on it. I like leaving it in more often than not though because RIP -> Energy Field/Helm still gets you a lot of mileage.
You can board out Counterbalance against decks like Fish, MUD, Dredge, and BUG (depending on how much you have to board in), but I'd leave it in most other places and don't particularly like boarding it out.
A lot of times Detention Sphere and/or Energy Field can be boarded out for being too clunky post-board.
That should cover most stuff, you can message me if you want about a particular MU.
If I find free times in the next days I could update the primer - would anyone mind joining me in doing so?
Greetings
If you are referring to MU against BUG, Mirran Crusader is simply better than Geist. If you want a generic solution against BUG and Jund, then Geist would come out on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
man but how do we deal with Terminus then?
we lose our best man for Mirran Crusader (a WW creature, btw).
We lose Pyroclasm and Terminus.
Is Crusader worth the loss?
I just don't think Crusader is really worth running in this deck. Maybe it is more useful in non-RIP versions, but between RIP, Swords, and Terminus you should be able to clear the field of any Goyfs or other threats enough to be able to get in there with Geist. Crusader here is only ever a 5, possibly 4 turn clock. Geist is pretty consistently a 3 turn clock. Mirran Crusader also gets abysmally tempo'd out if they already have or play a Jace. Geist still gets in there.
And yes, they both die to our mass removal, but the sweepers are still good at clearing the field. I could be wrong, but I don't really see Geist as a "jam it on t3, hope to get there" sort of card for us. I think I'd rather have them eat a Terminus and then use Geist to close out the game before they can recover. Though I suppose that would make me have to ask myself, is a t4/5 Geist better at closing the game out than t7/8 Entreat? Maybe not... maybe just more Entreats is still the right call, although they certainly can clutter up a hand a lot worse than Geist.
I'd be happy to help with that. I have some stuff written up already if that helps out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I disagree. Do you realize how many tourney reports and SCG coverage have we seen, when the Miracle players dug using SDT and failed to find any removals to save his life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
In my testing, I have not only promptly blocked Goyf to buy me time, I have also blocked Batterskull token as well. If it were Geist, it would just block and die, buy me exactly 1 turn. In a deck like this, it's not about 3 turn clock vs 5 turn clock, it's really a struggle for board control. Sure, your game plan is to Terminus and then drop your bomb, but that's a big conditional and we all know what to do if we have Terminus on deck. The difference is when you don't foresee mass removal and you need an answer, which card would help you to turn this board position around? a vanilla 2/2 blocker that would just die (no karakas), or a double strike hoser that can block almost every creature BUG has (non-delver version).
just killed twice on second turn Dredge and TES (Ill-gotten Gain version) with a single RiP
RiP like condom :D, never without
This is my first time commenting on The Source. I was encouraged to contribute after I started playtesting the Punishing Fire build kaosjr, oarsmen and Shawn were discussing. I've been playing configurations of Miracles for a year now (RIP/Helm, Miracle Blade, you name it) and I've been extreely impressed by the Punishing Fire list.
I have found that it helps immeasurably in the fair matchups, particularly the BGx matches. Fire easily combats Deathrite, Confidant, Delver, Stoneforge, Strix etc.. and handles opposing planeswalkers too (especially relevant after the rules change). Lilianna is a joke against Punishing Fire. While I recognize that maindeck RIP has lots of value in shrinking goys and gaining incidental wins (against dredge for instance), I think the additional control engine in Punishing Fire is too good to pass up. Seriously. Try it.
Inarguably, the manabase in the Pfire list is a little less stable, but it is still resilient enough. To this point, I routinely play against a B/G Pox player who ravages my resources, and the Punishing list has held up just fine. In fact, it is the first Miracles list I've run that consistently beats his deck (when he was mono black it was a cake walk).
I've also switched to the Stoneforge/Batterskull package as a replacement for the RIP/Helm combo I was running. I'm not sold on it yet, but it has been effective in the fair matchups, and it presents a tricky threat for BGx decks (they often end up Decaying the mystic or germ token, which takes heat off of our counterbalance).
Here's my list:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
3 Misty Rainforest
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pyroblast
This is the strangest mana curve I have ever used. Generally I run a standard mana curve (15+ one drops, 8 two drops, 3-4 threes etc..) but I figured I'd just run with a boosted count of twos and see how it works for now (we can always tap the top to counter a 1cmc, right?)
I'd love to get some more input on the Punishing Fire build, so let me know what you guys think after some playtesting.
I will never understand 50% of your lists.
1 Blood Moon SB
1 ET SB?
probability to get the Moon on the field? 2%?
that just doesn't work. in the BUG matchup were I want to have RiP + Moon online I play 3 ET 3 RiP and 2 Moons
that's all another reliability.
Planeswalkers? the only planeswalkers that see actual play are Jace and Liliana. Jace, is rid by Pyroblast. The only problem is Liliana (which gets rid by Leyline)
And I want 4 Leylines anyway, because of Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize AND Liliana.
I'm also trying a version without Planeswalkers because Energy Field (which is a bitch against Dredge Merfolk and Goblin) doesn't protect Planeswalkers..
Ensnaring Bridge + Planeswalkers (but then the CA from Jace, might be dangerous)
or
Energy Field + hard lock (or better as hard as possible while waiting for Entreat the Angels / Helm of Obedience) ??
the question of my week
edit: the planeswalkers-less version also allows us moves like Pithing Needle on Jace (which would become #1 target for his Abrupt Decays, saving our main bombs: Moon and RiP)
may be SB change:
-3 Divert
+3 Pithing Needle
but Ensnaring Bridge is the first test to do now...
because yes, Moat is just superior in 99% of the cases but Ensnaring Bridge would allow us to play Sol Lands. Which definitly are another thing to test
Thanks for your input.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
The odds of seeing either Tutor or Blood Moon by turn 4 are closer to 25% than 2% (and that's without digging with top/fetches). I'm comfortable with that number. Plus, to get back to my original point, the Punishing Fire tech is impacted by Blood Moon so I don't want to go all-in on Blood Moon. Blood Moon has been good for me in the BGx matchups but not outstanding, so I'm happy with the numbers I run in that regard.
Leyline is great against Lilianna but it doesn't remove her. Miracles has trouble with non-creature permanent removal (Detention Sphere is a sitting duck for Abrupt Decay), and I don't want my opponent to keep their Lilianna, making me discard every turn, only for them to lay a Maelstrom Pulse on the Leyline and then use Lilianna's ultimate (has happened numerous times to me). I recognize that Miracles can play around Lilianna as long as she doesn't come down early game but I think it's important to give Miracles access to removal, and Punishing Fire does it brilliantly, doubling as excellent creature control. Also, Punishing Fire is an easy discard to Lilianna (just pops back to your hand every turn). You're right, of course, that Pyroblast is great against Jace. So is Punishing Fire. I run both. I'm a Jace killing machine, yo.
Last night I was playing against Stoneblade. I was able to completely negate a Batterskull (the only threat my opponent could stick, because his Confidants and Deathrites are dead against Pfire) for many turns by just hitting it twice with Punishing Fire. This gave me the time to dig with top/fetches and find a Jace or Entreat for the win.
I am actually quite surprised you have not made the move to playing 1 cascade bluffs in the p.fires list
Have you gone to college yet? The correct mathematical modeling for Magic is Hypergeometric Distribution. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/chrism...-distribution/ Please do some homework before you post comments related to numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
My problem with Punishing Fire Miracle Blade is that it would flat out lose to Show and Tell variants. That's the difference when you ditch Spell Pierce, combo decks make you pay for it.
While this is unnecessarily arrogant, it is also pretty correct. Here is another quick resource that is pretty useful: http://radsuara.zzl.org/lands.html (though it's designed to calculate lands, you can just replace the numbers and calculate whatever you'd like)Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I think that Punishing Fire hurts against Wasteland decks more than anything really. I find that Spell Pierce doesn't particularly make or break the Show and Tell MU. Against SNT, you really need Counterbalance and a 3cmc on top. Anything less is pretty sketchy. The biggest way that Punishing Fire hurts against SNT is the lack of Enlightened Tutor to up your virtual 3cmc count and the lack of RIP/Helm to steal wins from a resolved Show and Tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Yeah, you guys are definitely right that Punishing builds sacrifice some game against combo decks pre-board. It might just be the fact that my meta is saturated with BGx fair decks that encourages me to make the sacrifice, but I also feel like I can somewhat shore up my weakness post-board. With the addition of 3x Blasts, Venser and Clique for Show and Tell, Leylines and RIP for Storm combo plus my 4 main deck counterbalances I think Punishing lists can salvage most combo match ups, barring a nut draw on the opponent's part. Playtesting will tell..
come on, my 2% didn't want to be mathematic, it was just sarcasticly meaning the probabilty to see (and resolve) it are very low -___-''
Again,
1) it was sarcastic and not actual numbers
2) I said "the probability to get one on the field" not to see one in hand.
Holy Zombie Jesus, move on already.
To shore this poo-storm o stupidity up and to get the thread back to 'on-topic', let me explain what happened. Poron trolled stats like a gallon of milk on the floor and newcomer BlackNapkins bit. Hook, line, and sinker.
/thread-fixer
Movin on, I think that since Punishing Fires is a compact combo that is only 1/2 on-color with the tertiary and arguably most disposable color of the 3, and the addition of green is unimaginably irrelevant to the list as well, not to mention its inability to be tutored for in any way in this particular archetype, should it be anything more to this thread than a passing mention and maybe a brief mention of it in the opening post describing it as a possibe inclusion and what it is good against for those interested? I say no.
I have been looking for a sleek U/W Miracle list for a while with little luck. Can someone point me in the right direction?
-ABC
Just wanted to comment on my first ever legacy tournament that I played.
Don't have a copy of my exact decklist but I was running RIP/Helm with maindeck Blood Moon and Energy Field. We have 20 players with the top 4 getting stuff like Dual Land or Force of Will as prizes.
Round 1 - Lands. Lol, was nice to have an easy first round match up. I had Blood Moon in my opener both games and he could do nothing about it.
Round 2 - Elves. Was able to counter his Natural Order twice, before sweeping the board and taking over the game. Game 2 he dumped his hand and I put a Terminus on top of my library to blow him out. It is at this point I start to get a bad migraine :(
Round 3 - BUG. These games were a little more interactive than the previous 2 rounds but game 1 was reasonably under my control. Game 2, He is beating me down with a Thrun while I stare at my useless Swords. I make the stupid mistake of not blocking with my Meddling Mage (naming Abrupt Decay) and go to 1. I top and find an Entreat and realise this will win me the game. Draw my Entreat and realise I only have 1 white source, crack my fetch forgetting I am on 1 and die. Not sure if this was me being too excited about drawing Entreat or if having a migraine put me off. Still, I doubt I will be making that mistake again. Game 3 he ultimates Liliana and I still have him under Counterbalance/Top. I keep trying to dig my way out of it but the second Liliana ulitmate finishes me off.
So far the deck has been performing well and feels strong and I am still in good shape to make top 8.
Round 4 - Mono White. Feel like this should have been a good match for me but both games he had me under Karakas/Mangara of Corondor and I was unable to find a Terminus or my own Karakas.
Round 5 - RUG Threshold. Can still win and make top 8, but found out this seems to be a horrible match. Maybe my opponent just drew well both games but it felt like there was literally nothing I could do. My fetch's all got Stifled, my duals wastelanded, terminus countered and Sword being usless against Mongoose.
Did not want to stick around after the tournament as my migraine was getting worse, so I went home.
Other than being in pain and making a terrible mistake that cost me top 8, I really enjoyed playing Legacy and this deck
Any advice for the Threshold match? I was not running Supreme Verdict in my list, so thinking I will add that, but not sure that will be enough.
Your assessment of your opponent is a bit off.Quote:
Originally Posted by magic_gazz
Mono white is actually called Death and Taxes, it's not a good match up, it's 50-50. He has 4 Karakas, doesn't matter if you find your own or not. He also has Rishadan port.
The RUG Threshold is more commonly known as RUG Delver, Threshold is the older term from Canandian Threshold. Basically, you have to assume he is holding Daze, because it's never good if he Daze any spells you play. You pretty much have to take early beats, don't break fetchlands until you are ready to fight stifle and wasteland, try to stick Rest in Peace in intelligently asap. A card that can hose Delver + Death and Taxes is Teferi's Response.
The bottom line at this point is still Graveyard hate.
If you follow SCG Open or your LGS legacy event, DRS is everywhere, every non show and tell variants has it.
Maverick - DRS
Stoneblade - DRS
BUG - DRS
Jund - DRS
If you are Not running Rest in Peace, are you utilizing graveyard in some ways? It comes down to PFire and/or Snapcaster. None is really not an option.
nice try trolling from 'Nilla Pac
I am addressing all the Miracle players when I write you, you as in you all Miracle players, in case you have not heard of this word context. Look at the entire paragraph, it's not addressing to magic_gazz. The paragraph starts out as: If you follow SCG Open or your LGS legacy event.
My comments toward magic_gazz ended when the paragraph ended, in case 'Nilla Pac missed his English class.
Aether Vial can be a problem in this MU. If you keep Vial out of the picture, Counterbalance is actually pretty good against them. They don't generally run Caverns due to Ports. Watch out for SFM and Mangara. Those are really the only two cards they have that let them pressure you without overextending.Quote:
Originally Posted by magic_gazz
I really consider RUG one of the easier MU's for us, especially the RIP version. The key is almost entirely about mana development. Keep hands with a lot of mana or else ways to fight through Stifle (REB/FoW/Pierce). There is no need to pull the trigger early. If you can, always wait an extra turn to play around Daze or two to play around Spell Pierce. Almost every one of your spells is game ending for RUG, just be patient.Quote:
Originally Posted by magic_gazz
Oblivion Stone / desperate FoWs / Spell Snare on Vial
and as many Blood Moon as possible.
Eventually Pyroclasm and Terminus seal the deal.
Thalia's White weenie is rather easy actually. And I feel Counterbalance not very needed
The decks that really hurt me are: Planeswalker based decks, Abrupt Decay based decks, and Show and Tell ones.
Apart from these, I rarely find myself in troubles..
How do you exactly Spell Snare on Vial?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Death and Taxes runs full Wasteland and full Port, do you have any ideas on the difficulty level of tricking DnT player such that you can actually use Red Mana while bypassing Thalia to play a Red sorcery that might cost 3?
Even if you did play Pyroclasm, DnT can always bounce Thalia using Karakas and Mother of Rune on something else, not to mention Pyroclasm does nothing against Serra Avenger.
Seriously, are you intentionally trying to mislead Miracle players? Do some homework before you post something like "XYZ is rather easy actually"
Spell Pierce, come on.
4 Swords 4 Terminus 2 Pyroclasm and you find yourself in troubles with weenies creatures? you can even play Sulfur Elemental in that matchup
if Thalia is all that problem, you wait his single Karakas (one each time) to be tapped, than play StP.
Honestly, may be it's my list that is very anti-creature driven but I don't feel Esper Blade, Death Blade, Rug and all those similar to be negative (<50%) matchups.
But maybe I'm just overposting in this topic. Sorry
This theory from Poron hinges on playskill of both the miracles and the Maverick/DnT players imo.
Against Wasteland decks like RUG where I'll want Red spells (REB), I'll just hold up a fetchland until the second that I need :r: before cracking it. I imagine that it's the same against Death and Taxes. Just don't crack for a Volcanic before you actually mean to cast Pyroclasm. Also, Poron mentioned Blood Moon which not only makes casting Pyroclasm easy but shuts down all of their mana denial and cute Karakas tricks. Like sauce said though, a lot of it will probably come down to who can plan it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
which goes back to what I was saying: 50-50, NOT "XYZ is rather easy actually" assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
If one has a dying urge to make a comment like "XYZ is rather easy actually," one has to learn the difference between Spell Pierce and Spell Snare, the difference between 2% and 25% first.
I don't think controlling the stack w/ spells is a viable strategy vs RUG, I just take out all my counterspells vs them and focus onQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
1. not dying
2. setting up counterbalance (by playing around daze/pierce)
3. establishing manabase by fetching basics and playing around stifle when possible.
They have too many taxing counterspells, stifles and wastleands for you to reliably expect that Red blast will resolve.
I posted a tournament report here finishing 17th at SCG Philly with a more traditional Miracles list feel free to check it out, I'm always looking for feedback on deck design decisions and sideboarding. I started out 5-0 but unfortunately couldn't close it out for a shot at top 8.
play bad, keep bad hands, get rewarded. UWr punishing miracles vs Dredge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBG_rHvdJJI
On the RUG Match-Up.
Your trumps in this Match-Up are, obviously, RIP and Counterbalance. CC2-Enchantments. What is your plan if you take out all your counterspell? Wait until you can play them Pierceproof only to get them Blasted/FoWed? Taking out your counterspells is just wrong. You should take out Force of Will, that's right - and probably shave Counterspell, but you probably still want 1. But, and this is most important you want to maximize on CC1 Counters, namely Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm. And don't you come with the "They are dead later" argument - our goal is it, to reach this "later", ya know? Flusterstorm is pretty much the best counter vs RUG. Play a RIP T3, Fluster their Snare, they can't daze it, they can't force it and they can't REB it. It all comes down to setting up. Sometimes it is correct to sweep, sweep, remove, remove and then cast a cc2-Enchantment - but if I played some numbers of Pierces/Flusters it might be correct doing it the way I tend to do it. Focus on your enchantment first - kill the guys after - BUT this is not always true and depends largely on the hand you open and the boardstate + how much manadenial they have. Oh, and we have REB too - vs RUG-decks I always tried to play probably as much red spells postboard as I played sources. So 2-3 red spells when I got 2 Volcanics.
Greetings
Against RUG, you want to use the first four turns as mana development. Don't actually DO anything. That's the best way I've found to beat them. Once you turn off all their Dazes and such, then nuke them out of the water with removal, RIP, CB, etc.
-Matt
lol anyway
1) I said the probability to get one on the field, not to see one in hand. How can this not mean? O_O
2) I'm not english and just got wrong in translating Spell Pierce with Spell Snare (mistake due to their closeness in english)
I must say that, overall the second "mistake" was rather obvious to anyone who has a friendly and open attitude...
Sorry but, can you tell us some matchups where you're > 55%?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
because I can only hear complaints about every matchup from you. Esper, RUG, Thalia.
Just anything. If your average "matchup goodness" ratio isn't over 55-60%, why are you playing this deck?
Just so you know this won't really work against anyone who is aware of how the stack works. If you play RIP, they Snare and you cast Flusterstorm they can just allow all of the copies of Flusterstorm to resolve and then with RIP still on the stack cast Daze, Force, Stifle etc. The only example you gave which is true is REB since they can't target RIP or profitably use it against Flusterstorm.Quote:
Flusterstorm is pretty much the best counter vs RUG. Play a RIP T3, Fluster their Snare, they can't daze it, they can't force it and they can't REB it. It all comes down to setting up.